Author Topic: Global Resource Modifier  (Read 802 times)

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Offline BasileusMaximos (OP)

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Global Resource Modifier
« on: May 17, 2020, 01:06:58 PM »
I feel that planets don't get enough resources to really reflect how large they are. I think it should be viable to have a prosperous empire in Sol alone without having to go out and colonize other systems. I know you can change the amount of minerals on your homeworld but to me that feels like cheating. I'd rather every gets access to more resources and so would like an option to increase (or decrease) the amount of minerals that spawn.

Aurora otherwise does a good job of communicating the scale of the universe, but in this it kinda fails.
 
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Offline consiefe

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Re: Global Resource Modifier
« Reply #1 on: May 17, 2020, 01:14:18 PM »
Trans-Newtonian Minerals are not the regular material that we know of like iron, carbon etc. They have backstory fiction behind them. So, its kinda reasonable to have it randomly by chance. You can read Aurora fiction on this forum.

Edit:
Here:
http://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php?topic=10239.0
« Last Edit: May 17, 2020, 01:16:35 PM by consiefe »
 

Online QuakeIV

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Re: Global Resource Modifier
« Reply #2 on: May 17, 2020, 01:42:37 PM »
Even if there is a lore explanation, it would still be kindof nice to have the option.  In general facilitating a longer initial stage in sol prior to heading out into the universe could be pretty fun potentially imo.  That isn't fundamentally incompatible with said lore, its still random amounts, the amount just happens to be bigger (for everyone).
 

Offline BasileusMaximos (OP)

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Re: Global Resource Modifier
« Reply #3 on: May 17, 2020, 01:45:52 PM »
Ehhhh, I always figured that the TN stuff was just to handwave away questions as to why Aurora doesn't work with Newtonian physics. From what I understand, there was an offshoot of the game that did try to stay true to real-world physics but it didn't work too well. That alone doesn't justify TN material being scarce in my eyes. They're all just stand-ins for real materials anyways. In fact, I would prefer it if the whole TN stuff was dropped and the game started using real minerals and found another way to handwave Aurora breaking physics.

Also, I've always wanted to do a 'Sol Only' game (especially now that I'm watching The Expanse) but such things aren't really feasible with the standard amount of resources.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2020, 02:30:22 PM by BasileusMaximos »
 

Offline consiefe

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Re: Global Resource Modifier
« Reply #4 on: May 17, 2020, 02:01:08 PM »
Fair enough. That option could prove useful for setups. It's just there is a justification for materials being scarce as you said. But to make a game, these abstractions are necessary in my opinion.
 

Offline Father Tim

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Re: Global Resource Modifier
« Reply #5 on: May 17, 2020, 05:07:40 PM »
If NPRs could have a viable empire in their home system alone, why would they ever leave?  Indeed, some wouldn't ever leave, and that would be more unfair than simply giving yourself ten times the minerals.
 

Offline SpikeTheHobbitMage

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Re: Global Resource Modifier
« Reply #6 on: May 17, 2020, 05:34:12 PM »
If NPRs could have a viable empire in their home system alone, why would they ever leave?  Indeed, some wouldn't ever leave, and that would be more unfair than simply giving yourself ten times the minerals.
Variable and unpredictable NPR behaviour should be encouraged.  Jumping blindly into a system that is fortified beyond reason, without so much as encountering a scout to warn you of what is just over the event horizon, would add flavour to the game.
 

Offline Jorgen_CAB

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Re: Global Resource Modifier
« Reply #7 on: May 17, 2020, 06:05:27 PM »
Fair enough. That option could prove useful for setups. It's just there is a justification for materials being scarce as you said. But to make a game, these abstractions are necessary in my opinion.

Yes... it would be an option in the same way that lowering or increasing universal research, survey or terraforming is an option. I think it actually fit rather well to also scale mineral amount on planets as well in exactly the same manner. You can choose to live in a galaxy where minerals only are half as common or perhaps twice as common wherever they are found. There could also be a setting on how often you find a body with minerals as well.

So... one that universally modify the amount on each body and one that modify how often you find anything on a body. I'm pretty sure both of these would be relatively easy to include and would help people set up the galaxy exactly the way they want it to be.
 

Offline Ri0Rdian

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Re: Global Resource Modifier
« Reply #8 on: May 17, 2020, 06:18:00 PM »
Huge pop games can eat through minerals like crazy with proper tech (my CP is idle 99% of the time due to resource bottleneck). So a global resource % modifier would be awesome, we have Earth now, which I find nice, but way less important (other than RP reasons).
 

Offline BasileusMaximos (OP)

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Re: Global Resource Modifier
« Reply #9 on: May 17, 2020, 06:18:30 PM »
If NPRs could have a viable empire in their home system alone, why would they ever leave?  Indeed, some wouldn't ever leave, and that would be more unfair than simply giving yourself ten times the minerals.

If mineral generations effected everywhere then it wouldn't be unbalanced. If you have plenty of minerals in your starting system then so does the other guy and the difference would be who expands more quickly.

Difficulty would remain the same but you'd have more of a margin of error to do new things, experiment, and fail which is important in a game like this.
 

Offline Father Tim

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Re: Global Resource Modifier
« Reply #10 on: May 17, 2020, 06:40:08 PM »
If mineral generation [is] effected everywhere then it wouldn't be unbalanced.


Except it's also random everywhere.  There's no guarantee anyone's home system will have a gas giant with millions of tons of Sorium, and the difference between having one and not having one is huge.

If you have plenty of minerals in your starting system then so does the other guy and the difference would be who expands more quickly.

Difficulty would remain the same but you'd have more of a margin of error to do new things, experiment, and fail which is important in a game like this.

Except you are not guaranteed 'plenty of minerals' -- and the possibilty of a superabundance of one or two has massive implications for expansion.  C# Aurora now features NPR AI with the philosophy of "explore everywhere, as fast as practicable" and "only explore new systems when one or more minerals run low."

I would counter that your margin for error is overshadowed by randomness.  The problem is akin to the folks who insisted that wealth generation was easy & limitelss and building Infrastructure was foolish. . . because they always played Sol starts and colonized Luna and subsidized shipping lines and sat back and watched the money roll in and the free Infrastructure materialize by the thousand.  Those of us playing conventional starts in random systems had a very different experience.

I am very concerned that any 'universal mineral abundance modifier' would have significant -- possibly catastrophic -- effects on NPR AI & behaviour.  Remember the VB Aurora 'difficulty modifier' for NPRs.
 

Offline SpikeTheHobbitMage

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Re: Global Resource Modifier
« Reply #11 on: May 17, 2020, 06:54:35 PM »
If mineral generation [is] effected everywhere then it wouldn't be unbalanced.


Except it's also random everywhere.  There's no guarantee anyone's home system will have a gas giant with millions of tons of Sorium, and the difference between having one and not having one is huge.

If you have plenty of minerals in your starting system then so does the other guy and the difference would be who expands more quickly.

Difficulty would remain the same but you'd have more of a margin of error to do new things, experiment, and fail which is important in a game like this.

Except you are not guaranteed 'plenty of minerals' -- and the possibilty of a superabundance of one or two has massive implications for expansion.  C# Aurora now features NPR AI with the philosophy of "explore everywhere, as fast as practicable" and "only explore new systems when one or more minerals run low."

I would counter that your margin for error is overshadowed by randomness.  The problem is akin to the folks who insisted that wealth generation was easy & limitelss and building Infrastructure was foolish. . . because they always played Sol starts and colonized Luna and subsidized shipping lines and sat back and watched the money roll in and the free Infrastructure materialize by the thousand.  Those of us playing conventional starts in random systems had a very different experience.

I am very concerned that any 'universal mineral abundance modifier' would have significant -- possibly catastrophic -- effects on NPR AI & behaviour.  Remember the VB Aurora 'difficulty modifier' for NPRs.
Sol gets four kicks at the Sorium cat and doesn't always hit while NPRs don't always get a gas giant.  In that respect the game is already unbalanced for Sol starts, so adding another unfair option doesn't really change things.  As long as we aren't required to use them then I don't see a problem with breaking/broken options if Steve finds them interesting enough to code them in.  In this case I would say the dial should be tunable both ways, so that resources can be made more scarce.  As for catastrophic NPR failures, some people would pay to watch that.
 

Offline BasileusMaximos (OP)

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Re: Global Resource Modifier
« Reply #12 on: May 20, 2020, 03:01:09 PM »
It would be cool to combine more resources with a modifier that slows research and speed. It would mean you spend a lot of time in Sol and distances remain large until the endgame. Just stuff to make space feel 'bigger' in general would be nice.
 

Offline spartacus

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Re: Global Resource Modifier
« Reply #13 on: May 20, 2020, 03:59:20 PM »
If I were to pick at this and its mostly from an RP point of view I wish the other planets were more like Earth.  It seems unrealistic that Earth is so unique even in the Solar system.  I don't even mean that the minerals should be more abundant just more even in distribution, for instance I would like it if Mars, Venus, Mercury etc. always had all 11 minerals the quantities could be greater or smaller even just a few hundred of something. 

For me this would make Steve's TN lore more realistic as all the planets would accumulate some of all the elements and it wouldn't even be necessary to have the ultra huge deposits of something like we have now, you could still have some pretty big ones just not the excessive you're set forever that some of the planets seem to have now.  I am also cool with only sorium being available on gas giants, my thinking would be that the other minerals are actually there just completely beyond reach due to the nature of the body.  As an aside that could make for an interesting expansion of the mining mechanic with special Geo Survey equipment and mines necessary to extract the other minerals from the gas giants.
 

Offline BasileusMaximos (OP)

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Re: Global Resource Modifier
« Reply #14 on: May 20, 2020, 04:13:49 PM »
If I were to pick at this and its mostly from an RP point of view I wish the other planets were more like Earth.  It seems unrealistic that Earth is so unique even in the Solar system.  I don't even mean that the minerals should be more abundant just more even in distribution, for instance I would like it if Mars, Venus, Mercury etc. always had all 11 minerals the quantities could be greater or smaller even just a few hundred of something. 

For me this would make Steve's TN lore more realistic as all the planets would accumulate some of all the elements and it wouldn't even be necessary to have the ultra huge deposits of something like we have now, you could still have some pretty big ones just not the excessive you're set forever that some of the planets seem to have now.  I am also cool with only sorium being available on gas giants, my thinking would be that the other minerals are actually there just completely beyond reach due to the nature of the body.  As an aside that could make for an interesting expansion of the mining mechanic with special Geo Survey equipment and mines necessary to extract the other minerals from the gas giants.

I second having a more even distribution of minerals similar to Earths.

I'd make it so planets have all the minerals most of the time and are relatively abundant but are harder to access. Asteroids should only have 1 or 2 minerals but are far more accessible.

Sorium, which I always interpreted as Hydrogen, should be in extreme abundance on gas gaints with there only be trace amounts anywhere else with awful accessibility. To compensate, the Conventional engine tech you get at the start of a Conventional Start should be 'refueled' automatically from conventional rocket-fuel that isn't represented in the game and is functionally limitless. Its not like you're going to be using those engines longer than you have to anyways, just long enough to pull your first gas station to Jupiter.
 
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