Author Topic: Ground Unit Weight Adjustment  (Read 1154 times)

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Offline BasileusMaximos (OP)

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Ground Unit Weight Adjustment
« on: May 19, 2020, 07:11:22 PM »
I want to know whether people think ground units are too heavy. An infantryman with basic weapons weighs 5 tons! You could argue that it doesnt represent just an infantryman and his equipment, but it really feels like it does and it should imo. More satisfying for ground units being represented to the last man.

You could make armor add weight to balance things out. I dont like how power armor and heavy power armor are just straight upgrades of regular armor
 

Offline Pedroig

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Re: Ground Unit Weight Adjustment
« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2020, 07:34:52 PM »
Another questions which has been asked, addressed, and even been given how Steve uses units...   Search is your friend.

And you've obviously never been a part of moving an infantry unit, 5 tons is on the light side per soldier.
si vis pacem, para bellum
 
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Offline BasileusMaximos (OP)

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Re: Ground Unit Weight Adjustment
« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2020, 07:47:13 PM »
Another questions which has been asked, addressed, and even been given how Steve uses units...   Search is your friend.

And you've obviously never been a part of moving an infantry unit, 5 tons is on the light side per soldier.

If Steve has offered a rational, please feel free to post it here, I'd like to know. A lot has been written about ground units and a general search just shows a deluge of different information.

 Anyways, I think that reducing the base weight of units while actually making armor effect weight would be a good change.
 

Offline kenlon

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Re: Ground Unit Weight Adjustment
« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2020, 08:07:53 PM »
Since you aren't going to bother, I looked it up for you:
http://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php?topic=10893.msg127258#msg127258
 

Offline consiefe

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Re: Ground Unit Weight Adjustment
« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2020, 08:17:31 PM »
These are Steve's test units, I believe. He's liberal with unit sizes.

 

Offline BasileusMaximos (OP)

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Re: Ground Unit Weight Adjustment
« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2020, 08:20:17 PM »
These are Steve's test units, I believe. He's liberal with unit sizes.



With how little thought GW puts into technical spec, I bet thats the canon weight of a Leman Russ.
 

Offline kenlon

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Re: Ground Unit Weight Adjustment
« Reply #6 on: May 20, 2020, 11:04:38 AM »
Canon weight of a Leman Russ is 60t. (The funny thing is I knew this off the top of my head, even though I went and checked to make sure.)
 

Offline JacenHan

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Re: Ground Unit Weight Adjustment
« Reply #7 on: May 20, 2020, 06:52:15 PM »
5 tons is the transport weight of the unit, not the literal weight of a soldier + equipment. This includes food, water, air (if necessary), and the soldier's share of base equipment such as commissaries, shelters, and etc. I believe someone posted recently (I can't find the thread it was in, unfortunately) that the US Army or Congress did a study and found that a typical infantry division takes about 100,000-120,000 tons of transport space, which is pretty close to (maybe slightly smaller) the sizes I have been getting in my own games.

As mentioned above, this has already been heavily discussed if you want to trawl through the pre-release C# Ground Combat thread.
 

Offline Father Tim

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Re: Ground Unit Weight Adjustment
« Reply #8 on: May 21, 2020, 01:04:50 PM »
I want to know whether people think ground units are too heavy.

No.  I do not think ground units are too heavy.

An infantryman with basic weapons weighs 5 tons!

No; an Infantry soldier with basic weapons requires 5 tons' displacement aboard ship to keep them alive, fed, clean, maintained, and fighting fit.  How much they (and their equipment, however much of it you count) mass is irrelevent.

Reduce INF size without reducing other units, and you throw off the balance of forces.  Reduce all grouund units proportionally and you throw off command limits.  Reduce all ground unit size and command limits proportionally and you throw of transport limits.  Reduce size, command limits, & transport limits and you throw off ship construiton balance.  Reduce size, command limits, & transport limits (while keeping troop bay ship components the same dispacement) and now all you've done is made a cosmetic change of the number '5' to '1' or '0.15' or whatever you pick, and just as many people now think the chosen numbers are wrong -- it's simply different people.

You could argue that it doesnt represent just an infantryman and his equipment, but it really feels like it does and it should imo.

I do argue that it doesn't, that it shouldn't, and that the actual weight of a ground unit's personnel and immediate equipment is irrelevent.  What is important is how much stuff is needed to support and maintain that ground unit.  There is a reason why military units have bases, and aren't forced to camp in fields under blankets that they carry everywhere with them.

More satisfying for ground units being represented to the last man.

Whether you consider one INF-PW element to be one individual or two, or ten, or a hundred is for you to decide.  The beauty of Aurora is that it is flexible enough to include Space Marines (TM GW) and Heinlein's bugs at the same time and with the same mechanics.

You could make armor add weight to balance things out. I dont like how power armor and heavy power armor are just straight upgrades of regular armor

And I absolutely loathe the idea that this year's Infantry take up 2% more displacement than last years, and I have to redo all my units because now they won't fit in the available transport.

Aurora already assumes that two-foot-tall, thirty-kilo Venusians and twelve-foot-tall, four-hundred kilo Saturnians require the exact same displacement to keep alive and fight with the exact same capabilities.  The gound unit numbers were chosen for game balance, not to perfectly fit any particular individual's fiction.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2020, 02:10:54 PM by Father Tim »
 

Offline BasileusMaximos (OP)

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Re: Ground Unit Weight Adjustment
« Reply #9 on: May 21, 2020, 02:37:28 PM »
I want to know whether people think ground units are too heavy.

No.  I do not think ground units are too heavy.

An infantryman with basic weapons weighs 5 tons!

No; an Infantry soldier with basic weapons requires 5 tons' displacement aboard ship to them alive, fed, clean, maintained, and fighting fit.  How much they (and their equipment, however much of it you count) mass is irrelevent.

Reduce INF size without reducing other units, and you throw off the balance of forces.  Reduce all grouund units proportionally and you throw off command limits.  Reduce all ground unit sisze and command limits proportionally and you throw of transport limits.  Reduce size, command limits, & transport limits and you throw off ship construiton balance.  Reduce size, command limits, & transport limits (while keeping troop bay ship components the same dispacement) and now all you've done is made a cosmetic change of the number '5' to '1' or '0.15' or whatever you pick, and just as many people now think the chosen numbers are wrong -- it's simply different people.

You could argue that it doesnt represent just an infantryman and his equipment, but it really feels like it does and it should imo.

I do argue that it doesn't, that it shouldn't, and that the actual weight of a ground unit's personnel and immediate equipment is irrelevent.  What is important is how much stuff is needed to support and maintain that ground unit.  There is a reason why military units have bases, and aren't forced to camp in fields under blankets that they carry everywhere with them.

More satisfying for ground units being represented to the last man.

Whether you consider one INF-PW element to be one individual or two, or ten, or a hundred is for you to decide.  The beauty of Aurora is that it is flexible enough to include Space Marines (TM GW) and Heinlein's bugs at the same time and with the same mechanics.

You could make armor add weight to balance things out. I dont like how power armor and heavy power armor are just straight upgrades of regular armor

And I absolutely loathe the idea that this year's Infantry take up 2% more displacement than last years, and I have to redo all my units because now they won't fit in the available transport.

Aurora already assumes that two-foot-tall, thirty-kilo Venusians and twelve-foot-tall, four-hundred kilo Saturnians require the exact same displacement to keep alive and fight with the exact same capabilities.  The gound unit numbers were chosen for game balance, not to perfectly fit any particular individual's fiction.

Just to clarify, I meant the type of armor you choose for a unit should effect weight, not armor tech. So infantry with power armor is heavier than infantry without.
 

Offline alex_brunius

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Re: Ground Unit Weight Adjustment
« Reply #10 on: May 21, 2020, 04:30:13 PM »
5 tons is the transport weight of the unit, not the literal weight of a soldier + equipment. This includes food, water, air (if necessary), and the soldier's share of base equipment such as commissaries, shelters, and etc. I believe someone posted recently (I can't find the thread it was in, unfortunately) that the US Army or Congress did a study and found that a typical infantry division takes about 100,000-120,000 tons of transport space, which is pretty close to (maybe slightly smaller) the sizes I have been getting in my own games.

Well US divisions are not expected to be able to be deployed to the moon for extended periods of time without any additional support using just that weight... yet at least :)
 

Offline Father Tim

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Re: Ground Unit Weight Adjustment
« Reply #11 on: May 22, 2020, 09:03:58 PM »
Just to clarify, I meant the type of armor you choose for a unit should effect weight, not armor tech. So infantry with power armor is heavier than infantry without.


Okay.  First, I think power armour infantry vs non-power-armour infantry is the worst possible comparison, since I'm not sure they should even be the same unit type, but accepting the premise then we're comparing 100 kilos of infantry soldier plus 4900 kilos of equipment, life support, food, clothing, shelter, etc. with 100 kilos of infantry soldier plus 100 kilos of power armour plus 4800 kilos of equipment, life support, food, clothing, shelter, etc.

One element of INF-PW requires 5 tons' displacement to transport because it represents 5 tons' displacement (transport requirement) of infantry.

- - - - -

Actually, if we re-state your premise it no longer provokes my violent disagreement.

Instead of ". . .make armor add weight to balance things out. I dont like how power armor and heavy power armor are just straight upgrades of regular armor" if you say "power armour infantry should be a separate (heavier) element type from regular infantry" and make it 8 tons, or 7.5 tons, or whatever I'm fine with that and you're not inflicting a nightmare of micromanagement on my game.
 

Offline BasileusMaximos (OP)

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Re: Ground Unit Weight Adjustment
« Reply #12 on: May 22, 2020, 11:42:48 PM »
Just to clarify, I meant the type of armor you choose for a unit should effect weight, not armor tech. So infantry with power armor is heavier than infantry without.


Okay.  First, I think power armour infantry vs non-power-armour infantry is the worst possible comparison, since I'm not sure they should even be the same unit type, but accepting the premise then we're comparing 100 kilos of infantry soldier plus 4900 kilos of equipment, life support, food, clothing, shelter, etc. with 100 kilos of infantry soldier plus 100 kilos of power armour plus 4800 kilos of equipment, life support, food, clothing, shelter, etc.

One element of INF-PW requires 5 tons' displacement to transport because it represents 5 tons' displacement (transport requirement) of infantry.

- - - - -

Actually, if we re-state your premise it no longer provokes my violent disagreement.

Instead of ". . .make armor add weight to balance things out. I dont like how power armor and heavy power armor are just straight upgrades of regular armor" if you say "power armour infantry should be a separate (heavier) element type from regular infantry" and make it 8 tons, or 7.5 tons, or whatever I'm fine with that and you're not inflicting a nightmare of micromanagement on my game.

Yes, I also feel Power Armor should be more unique. Perhaps make it much more heavy compared to infantry but also give much more armor than it has right now and the ability to use weapons normally seen on vehicles or have a second weapon slot.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2020, 02:29:34 AM by BasileusMaximos »
 

Offline the obelisk

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Re: Ground Unit Weight Adjustment
« Reply #13 on: May 23, 2020, 12:30:08 AM »
I also have generally been feeling that armor levels should affect tonnage, although for me it's been more on the vehicle side.  I feel that, for example, a medium vehicle using light armor should take less tonnage than one using medium armor, as the existence of Racial Armor Score seems to indicate that different armor levels are not simply different materials being used in the armor, but rather literally using more material in the armor.  Since vehicle size has its own inherent benefits (extra weapon slots and more HP), I feel that armor heaviness affecting vehicle size would add more depth to their design.

EDIT: Also, while I said my thoughts are more focused on vehicles, I also do think that it makes sense for this to carry over to infantry.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2020, 12:34:09 AM by the obelisk »
 

Online Steve Walmsley

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Re: Ground Unit Weight Adjustment
« Reply #14 on: May 23, 2020, 06:17:59 AM »
Bear in mind that in Aurora tonnage is really volume. Otherwise, ships would become 'lighter' as they used fuel or fired missiles. I have avoiding splitting volume and mass because it would make things a lot more complex without a corresponding improvement in game play. An infantryman with better armour would be slightly larger, but probably not enough to make a significant game play difference when you consider most of the 'tonnage' required for transport isn't the infantryman himself.

Plus different players may have different mental images of what 'power armour' means or what an 'infantryman' means, so why force them into a particular definition?
« Last Edit: May 24, 2020, 04:53:15 AM by Steve Walmsley »
 

 

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