Author Topic: Forward Base Tutorials?  (Read 1557 times)

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Offline Graymane (OP)

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Forward Base Tutorials?
« on: May 22, 2020, 10:57:48 AM »
I am having some real difficulties in understanding the intricacies of the supply system (ammo, fuel, msp).  Maybe my problem is more in understanding how the orders work, I'm not sure.

This is my goal:

1.  Fleets are in the same state they were in before I issued orders.  I go to all this trouble of setting up standing orders, putting them in the correct org, etc and then the game just rudely dumps them into a different fleet.  The game seems to want me to constantly merge fleets to get anything done, this seems incredibly annoying to me.  I don't want to join a fleet to refuel it, re-ord it or re-supply it, or if I do, I want them to unmerge and go about their business.  Am I somehow doing this wrong?  I want it to work just like on a planet.
2.  Can fleets in the same location supply, refuel, rearm each other automatically without orders?  Is that the purpose of the dropdowns in the Naval Org window for No Auto Refuel,  Refuel Own Fleet, etc.?
3.  How would you normally resupply your forward supply ships (colliers, tankers, supply ships)?
 

Offline Ulzgoroth

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Re: Forward Base Tutorials?
« Reply #1 on: May 22, 2020, 11:10:14 AM »
I likely don't know the best answers, but you might find a slightly better answer in joining fleets to refuel to the tanker fleet as sub-fleets. I think you could then order the sub-fleets to separate to regenerate the prior fleet organization.
 
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Offline SpikeTheHobbitMage

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Re: Forward Base Tutorials?
« Reply #2 on: May 22, 2020, 11:57:15 AM »
I am having some real difficulties in understanding the intricacies of the supply system (ammo, fuel, msp).  Maybe my problem is more in understanding how the orders work, I'm not sure.

This is my goal:

1.  Fleets are in the same state they were in before I issued orders.  I go to all this trouble of setting up standing orders, putting them in the correct org, etc and then the game just rudely dumps them into a different fleet.  The game seems to want me to constantly merge fleets to get anything done, this seems incredibly annoying to me.  I don't want to join a fleet to refuel it, re-ord it or re-supply it, or if I do, I want them to unmerge and go about their business.  Am I somehow doing this wrong?  I want it to work just like on a planet.
2.  Can fleets in the same location supply, refuel, rearm each other automatically without orders?  Is that the purpose of the dropdowns in the Naval Org window for No Auto Refuel,  Refuel Own Fleet, etc.?
3.  How would you normally resupply your forward supply ships (colliers, tankers, supply ships)?
1) 'Refuel other fleet' is a much requested movement order for tankers.  We'll see if it makes it into 1.10.0.  The equivalent for supplies and ordnance is less critical but I agree that they would be nice to have.  Right now what you have to do is move the tanker into position and then order the other fleet to 'refuel from stationary tanker'.
2) No.  The auto-refuel commands are for in-transit refuelling with the same fleet or within a sub-fleet hierarchy.  Merely being in the same location isn't enough.  They also require the 'in-transit refuelling' tech to do anything.
3) The expected system for forward resupply is to establish a forward supply base or station.  This is the intended purpose of the 'hub' type ship components and the 'station' type installations.
 
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Offline skoormit

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Re: Forward Base Tutorials?
« Reply #3 on: May 22, 2020, 11:58:36 AM »
I am having some real difficulties in understanding the intricacies of the supply system (ammo, fuel, msp).  Maybe my problem is more in understanding how the orders work, I'm not sure.

This is my goal:

1.  Fleets are in the same state they were in before I issued orders.  I go to all this trouble of setting up standing orders, putting them in the correct org, etc and then the game just rudely dumps them into a different fleet.  The game seems to want me to constantly merge fleets to get anything done, this seems incredibly annoying to me.  I don't want to join a fleet to refuel it, re-ord it or re-supply it, or if I do, I want them to unmerge and go about their business.  Am I somehow doing this wrong?  I want it to work just like on a planet.
2.  Can fleets in the same location supply, refuel, rearm each other automatically without orders?  Is that the purpose of the dropdowns in the Naval Org window for No Auto Refuel,  Refuel Own Fleet, etc.?
3.  How would you normally resupply your forward supply ships (colliers, tankers, supply ships)?

1.
The game is not splitting up your fleets. If you put ships in the same fleet, they will stay like that until you detach them.
Keep in mind that ships in a fleet are all in a single location.

For details on how refuelling works, read here and here.
Resupplying and rearming works in much the same way.
More answers can easily be found by looking through the TOC here.

2.
Only if in the same fleet.

3.
My fleet tankers travel with the fleet, and I detach them when empty to return for refueling. Unfortunately, this cannot be automated.
I build space stations for refuel and resupply, and tug them to jump points. I then coordinate logistics for keeping these stations supplied. Most of this can be automated. As of yet, there is no way to tell fleet A to give fuel/supplies/ammo to fleet B. Hopefully this will be added in an upcoming version. For now, you can only order fleet B to take from fleet A, or join the fleets together.
 
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Online smoelf

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Re: Forward Base Tutorials?
« Reply #4 on: May 22, 2020, 12:39:06 PM »
If I understand you correctly, there seems to be two different aspects in play here. One is how to establish forward supply bases and the other is how to keep them supplied. The others have covered the second part fairly well, so I'll comment on the other.

In my current game I have a forward base in the form of a deep space station that supplies my exploration ships. Because one of them has a refuelling hub, it opens up the "Refuel from refuelling hub" and "Transfer fuel to refuelling hub" movement orders, which really simplifies refuelling, both of the station and the exploration ships. Resupplying is a bit more tricky. I have not yet seen a resupply movement order, so the only way here is to join the fleet, and have the space stations set to "Resupply Own Fleet". The resupply is usually fast enough that it is not big deal to join and detach within a few time segments. If you have an entire fleet that needs resupplying, you could possibly join as a sub-fleet and set as "Resupply Own Sub-Fleet". That would probably make it easier to detach with all appropriate ships without having to rename the fleet.

I can also overhaul in deep space, but this does not yet work with freely floating space stations (it has been reported as a bug; don't think it has been fixed yet). BUT, if I park my survey base fleet at a random colony and place a single maintenance facility at the colony, then I can overhaul at that colony and the ships in overhaul will use the maintenance capacity and supply points of my survey base fleet to complete the overhaul.

Remember a recreational facility to reduce deployment time.

Code: [Select]
Atlantic Mariner class Survey Support Base      175.173 tons       648 Crew       5.346,9 BP       TCS 3.503    TH 0    EM 0
1 km/s      No Armour       Shields 0-0     HTK 129      Sensors 0/0/0/0      DCR 11      PPV 0
MSP 12.019    Max Repair 2400 MSP
Troop Capacity 300 tons     Cargo Shuttle Multiplier 12   
Lieutenant Commander    Control Rating 1   BRG   
Intended Deployment Time: 24 months   
Maintenance Modules: 10 module(s) capable of supporting ships of 16.000 tons
Refuelling Hub - Capable of refuelling multiple ships simultaneously

Fuel Capacity 15.000.000 Litres    Range N/A

CIWS-120 (10x4)    Range 1000 km     TS: 12.000 km/s     ROF 5       
This design is classed as a Commercial Vessel for maintenance purposes
This design is classed as a Space Station for construction purposes

Code: [Select]
Atlantic Ranger class Survey Support Base      174.481 tons       1.692 Crew       5.810,9 BP       TCS 3.490    TH 0    EM 0
1 km/s      No Armour       Shields 0-0     HTK 213      Sensors 6/6/0/0      DCR 1      PPV 0
MSP 12.020    Max Repair 2000 MSP
Troop Capacity 300 tons     Cargo Shuttle Multiplier 12   
Captain    Control Rating 1   BRG   DIP   
Intended Deployment Time: 24 months   
Recreational Facilities
Maintenance Modules: 10 module(s) capable of supporting ships of 16.000 tons

Fuel Capacity 10.000.000 Litres    Range N/A

CIWS-120 (10x4)    Range 1000 km     TS: 12.000 km/s     ROF 5       
Thermal Sensor TH1.0-6 (1)     Sensitivity 6     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  19,4m km
EM Sensor EM1.0-6 (1)     Sensitivity 6     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  19,4m km

This design is classed as a Commercial Vessel for maintenance purposes
This design is classed as a Space Station for construction purposes
 
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Offline consiefe

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Re: Forward Base Tutorials?
« Reply #5 on: May 22, 2020, 12:40:48 PM »
The thing about 3) is military fleets/colonies don't notify you when they run low on supplies. You can use the conditional order workaround then they'll say something when they are below %30 or %20. But then you have no way to tell a supply ship to go X colony when its low to get supplies there. Instead it tries to resupply itself from the closest(?) colony which possibly doesn't have them. This blocks the MSP automation and hinders station complexes with military protection, either on no MSP production colony or in deep space. I think at some point Steve might add neccessary commands as they are requested but for now I guess he'll be busy with more critical things.

Edit: Grammar
« Last Edit: May 22, 2020, 12:44:16 PM by consiefe »
 
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Offline Graymane (OP)

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Re: Forward Base Tutorials?
« Reply #6 on: May 22, 2020, 12:51:09 PM »
Thanks for all the help!  Seems like we are waiting for some missing features.  The overhaul one really had me scratching my head!  I was guessing I needed a Shipyard or something.
 

Offline consiefe

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Re: Forward Base Tutorials?
« Reply #7 on: May 22, 2020, 12:59:18 PM »
...
3.
My fleet tankers travel with the fleet, and I detach them when empty to return for refueling. Unfortunately, this cannot be automated.
I build space stations for refuel and resupply, and tug them to jump points. I then coordinate logistics for keeping these stations supplied. Most of this can be automated. As of yet, there is no way to tell fleet A to give fuel/supplies/ammo to fleet B. Hopefully this will be added in an upcoming version. For now, you can only order fleet B to take from fleet A, or join the fleets together.

If you have a good way of automating resupplying remote stations or stations on colonies without MSP, I'll be a happier person. :)

I feel we lack a few simple standing commands and the ability to choose a resupply base for resupply ships.

Edit: Grammar
« Last Edit: May 22, 2020, 01:22:28 PM by consiefe »
 

Offline Father Tim

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Re: Forward Base Tutorials?
« Reply #8 on: June 01, 2020, 09:15:55 AM »
If you have a good way of automating resupplying remote stations or stations on colonies without MSP, I'll be a happier person. :)

I feel we lack a few simple standing commands and the ability to choose a resupply base for resupply ships.

Edit: Grammar


Load supplies homeworld
Travel to remote station
Unload supplies
Travel to homeworld
Refuel

cycle orders
 

Offline SpikeTheHobbitMage

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Re: Forward Base Tutorials?
« Reply #9 on: June 02, 2020, 11:00:41 AM »
If you have a good way of automating resupplying remote stations or stations on colonies without MSP, I'll be a happier person. :)

I feel we lack a few simple standing commands and the ability to choose a resupply base for resupply ships.

Edit: Grammar


Load supplies homeworld
Travel to remote station
Unload supplies
Travel to homeworld
Refuel

cycle orders
That will happily oversupply a station, potentially starving other locations.  We need a demand limited unload order to make it work properly.
 

Offline skoormit

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Re: Forward Base Tutorials?
« Reply #10 on: June 02, 2020, 01:47:02 PM »
If you have a good way of automating resupplying remote stations or stations on colonies without MSP, I'll be a happier person. :)

I feel we lack a few simple standing commands and the ability to choose a resupply base for resupply ships.

Edit: Grammar


Load supplies homeworld
Travel to remote station
Unload supplies
Travel to homeworld
Refuel

cycle orders

This only works for taking supplies to colonies.
There is no "unload supplies" order for giving supplies to another fleet.
The "transfer supplies to" order is only available at a colony.
 

Online froggiest1982

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Re: Forward Base Tutorials?
« Reply #11 on: June 02, 2020, 04:03:59 PM »
If you have a good way of automating resupplying remote stations or stations on colonies without MSP, I'll be a happier person. :)

I feel we lack a few simple standing commands and the ability to choose a resupply base for resupply ships.

Edit: Grammar


Load supplies homeworld
Travel to remote station
Unload supplies
Travel to homeworld
Refuel

cycle orders

This only works for taking supplies to colonies.
There is no "unload supplies" order for giving supplies to another fleet.
The "transfer supplies to" order is only available at a colony.

I would add that still cannot believe this not being implemented yet as it was announced as one of the major new feature.

I am glad for what has been done don't get me wrong but I was always a bit skeptical of the ground combat changes and the logistic ones. As they surely add more to the game it is also true that as they stand they make it partially unplayable.

You spend more time working around simple missing commands than push your supply further and further or thinking if to glass an alien world rather than take your chances on a ground battle.

I personally don't care but doesnt mean I dont get frustrated by it.
 
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Offline Jorgen_CAB

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Re: Forward Base Tutorials?
« Reply #12 on: June 02, 2020, 04:34:03 PM »
If you have a good way of automating resupplying remote stations or stations on colonies without MSP, I'll be a happier person. :)

I feel we lack a few simple standing commands and the ability to choose a resupply base for resupply ships.

Edit: Grammar

Load supplies homeworld
Travel to remote station
Unload supplies
Travel to homeworld
Refuel

cycle orders

This only works for taking supplies to colonies.
There is no "unload supplies" order for giving supplies to another fleet.
The "transfer supplies to" order is only available at a colony.

To be honest I think Steves vision here was that resupplying fleets in space are never a routine thing and therefore some babysitting is OK if not even mandatory as it should always be an important event.

So, your re-supply ships will join the fleet as a sub fleet and load the ships stores with supplies. When they are finished you have to detach the re-supply task-group and order it someplace else.

Regular re-supply ships are not meant to be used as re-supply stations, you are encouraged to build a forward base of operations for that purpose.

The problem as said is to easily re-supply a base that essentially is a fleet. In my opinion there should be an order to resupply any stationary fleet that has at least some maintenance facilities. I'm sure Steve will figure something out as he himself finds this to be a bit of a tedious feature as it currently can be.
 

Offline Graymane (OP)

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Re: Forward Base Tutorials?
« Reply #13 on: June 02, 2020, 05:57:52 PM »
I am probably overly influenced by my love of WW2 pacific theater operations as well as the game WITP-AE, but when I hear the word "Forward Base", I am thinking more in terms of Service Squadron 10 (basically floating fleet bases) as outlined in Beans, Bullets and Black Oil (if you can find a copy, I highly recommend it).  Service Squadron 10 was a veritable floating base consisting entirely of ships.

To me, it is the equivalent of a support fleet sitting at a JP, for example.  It has all the ammo, supplies, fuel, repair facilities you would need short of a refit or upgrade or seriously bad damage (which the game doesn't seem to model).  You don't merge with other fleets.  You drive up and use the same commands you would as if you were on a plant (IMHO):  Refuel from X, Resupply from X, Load Ord from X, etc.  Also commands for resupplying the base itself.  That is my hope anyway :P

I think things are on the right track, I'm sure commands will be added over time.  At least one of my issues seems to have been a bug anyway.
 
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Online froggiest1982

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Re: Forward Base Tutorials?
« Reply #14 on: June 02, 2020, 06:11:53 PM »
WITP-AE

Best logistics ever. I do also like having my ground troops training for months before attacking a specific target.

 

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