Author Topic: Using orbital habitats  (Read 10295 times)

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Offline Droll

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Re: Using orbital habitats
« Reply #30 on: June 09, 2020, 03:20:58 PM »
If there was just a way to delete it with a confirmation prompt or something I presume that would work fine.  I for one am actually pretty enthusiastic about that solution.  Its somewhat hacky but it would do the job.

If you delete the way point it should also delete any colony there as well... but not necessarily the Habitat as you can move that.

If you want to move Habitats you basically need to delete the colony and create it again in the new spot as you can't move the Habitat with the people inside.
That is one major concern: What happens to the people when you want to move a habitat somewhere else or abandon the site?  Also, this temporary colony shouldn't allow ground forces or installations of any kind, including infrastructure.

I don't see the problem with this as it is only you the player that decide how the rules should apply.

As to moving the habitat there are two ways... either YOU decide that you can move the habitat with the people inside it. You simply delete the people on the colony with SM, move the habitat and add the people back.

Or... you build a new habitat and move the population with colony ships and then move the old habitat.

You will also still face the issue with factories and other structures... are they on the ground or in space... If in space the NPR will still treat it as ground and can invade it.

In my opinion you should just treat this way-point as if there IS a small asteroid there and it just happen to be there all the time OR you simply towed the asteroid there using all of your tugs or something.

This would purely be a role-play thing so that is who you should treat it. You do with what you will.

You already can use SM to place a rock anyplace anyway and then put a habitat there, this would just make that process easier.

If you are after a proper mechanic for building a full habitat in space with factories and all that is a different matter and would need to be handled very differently, for now I think we need to mainly treat it as if the habitat actually is orbiting some sort of body (in most cases).
There is a general problem with habitats that removing one causes overpopulation and unrest on the (former) host colony the following production cycle.

My point is that a deep-space station, which is what this hack is meant to represent, should not be able to use ground facilites or be vulnerable to ground assaults.  'Just role-play it' is not sufficient because the NPRs need to be subject to the same rules.

If we actually follow the special "colony waypoint" method none of this really matters (with the exception of moving orbital habitats that would still be an issue):
1st - You can still allow the normal ground installations, there already is a soft cap based on the no. of workers the stations at that waypoint can house
2nd - Attacking such a colony with ships means that you attack the habitats like you normally would - a destroyed habitat kills all population housed inside and a % of installations at that waypoint
         based on the proportion of civies that were housed in that habitat.
3rd - Boarding combat is now the new ground combat - Still need some special rules for this case. Boarding in habitats may or may not allow lighter vehicles to participate (up to Steve) and the
        amount of ground units available to defend will depend on the crew and the amount of troops waiting in the troop transport bays on the station (if any). Also in the case of conquest the
        attacker gets a copy of the waypoint (if they don't have the same colony waypoint at the same position already) with their newly conquered station and surviving population (also with the %
        of installations corresponding to that station.

Of course this is a much fuller implementation as opposed to treating the waypoint as a pseudo-asteroid that doesn't actually exist. IMO for it to make sense deep space colonies would need special treatment.

As for the overpopulation problem isn't really and issue. Yes when you move out a habitat its going to result in overpopulation in the other habitats. So move people out. Or Steve could tie population to habitats making them move with the station. The former is how it would work if this was implemented today so its probably simpler.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2020, 03:22:46 PM by Droll »
 

Offline Jorgen_CAB

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Re: Using orbital habitats
« Reply #31 on: June 09, 2020, 03:31:09 PM »
If there was just a way to delete it with a confirmation prompt or something I presume that would work fine.  I for one am actually pretty enthusiastic about that solution.  Its somewhat hacky but it would do the job.

If you delete the way point it should also delete any colony there as well... but not necessarily the Habitat as you can move that.

If you want to move Habitats you basically need to delete the colony and create it again in the new spot as you can't move the Habitat with the people inside.
That is one major concern: What happens to the people when you want to move a habitat somewhere else or abandon the site?  Also, this temporary colony shouldn't allow ground forces or installations of any kind, including infrastructure.

I don't see the problem with this as it is only you the player that decide how the rules should apply.

As to moving the habitat there are two ways... either YOU decide that you can move the habitat with the people inside it. You simply delete the people on the colony with SM, move the habitat and add the people back.

Or... you build a new habitat and move the population with colony ships and then move the old habitat.

You will also still face the issue with factories and other structures... are they on the ground or in space... If in space the NPR will still treat it as ground and can invade it.

In my opinion you should just treat this way-point as if there IS a small asteroid there and it just happen to be there all the time OR you simply towed the asteroid there using all of your tugs or something.

This would purely be a role-play thing so that is who you should treat it. You do with what you will.

You already can use SM to place a rock anyplace anyway and then put a habitat there, this would just make that process easier.

If you are after a proper mechanic for building a full habitat in space with factories and all that is a different matter and would need to be handled very differently, for now I think we need to mainly treat it as if the habitat actually is orbiting some sort of body (in most cases).
There is a general problem with habitats that removing one causes overpopulation and unrest on the (former) host colony the following production cycle.

My point is that a deep-space station, which is what this hack is meant to represent, should not be able to use ground facilites or be vulnerable to ground assaults.  'Just role-play it' is not sufficient because the NPRs need to be subject to the same rules.

My point was that you would use SM to "delete" population in one place... move them and the "create" them in the new place and you effectively moved them with the habitat.

This would produce the least work for Steve at this point and would be fine for now until he want to do some more proper mechanics for it.

In my opinion there are other more important things to do long before any such mechanics are fleshed out.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2020, 02:49:28 AM by Jorgen_CAB »
 

Offline QuakeIV

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Re: Using orbital habitats
« Reply #32 on: June 10, 2020, 02:15:37 AM »
I would just want to go for a very basic implementation now, and to then improve on it over time in specific ways.  Boarding seems like the way to handle the ground combat in that case.
 

Offline Droll

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Re: Using orbital habitats
« Reply #33 on: June 10, 2020, 05:34:46 AM »
I would just want to go for a very basic implementation now, and to then improve on it over time in specific ways.  Boarding seems like the way to handle the ground combat in that case.

This is a strong argument but its nice to throw out ideas now rather than later gets everyone thinking.
 
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Offline liveware

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Re: Using orbital habitats
« Reply #34 on: June 19, 2020, 11:47:48 AM »
@OP:

Orbital habitats are extremely useful when combined with terraforming installations as the orbital population can work the terraformers even with zero ground infrastructure.

@Others regarding deep space habitats:

I would argue in favor of a deep space colony ship module rather than a special waypoint. Something similar in scale to the refueling or ordnance hubs in terms of size. The colony module would allow for the use of ground installations within the ship's cargo bays (or something similar). Then the population would be tied to a ship/station instead of a planet or waypoint which would eliminate the need to constantly copy/delete the population whenever you move the ship/station. It would be neat also if you could assign a civilian administrator to a colony module in order to have a true fully functional colony.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2020, 11:51:17 AM by liveware »
Open the pod-bay doors HAL...
 
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Offline Barkhorn

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Re: Using orbital habitats
« Reply #35 on: August 12, 2020, 01:25:12 PM »
What would these deep space colonies do?  Why would one build them?

I mean, we can already do deep space maintenance using maintenance modules.  We can do deep space shore leave using recreation modules.  We can do deep space supply, fuel, and ammunition caches using tankers, colliers, and supply ships.  We can do sensor stations with big buoys.  What other purposes could a deep space colony serve?

Being a big Isaac Arthur fan, I understand the RP desire to build deep space habitats, but would they actually serve a purpose?
 

Offline xenoscepter

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Re: Using orbital habitats
« Reply #36 on: August 12, 2020, 03:33:29 PM »
Trade Goods.

Deep Space Colonies don't exist in Aurora, at least not yet, but if they did they would probably function like any other colony and would thus generate Trade Goods and Wealth.
 

Offline smoelf (OP)

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Re: Using orbital habitats
« Reply #37 on: August 12, 2020, 04:20:07 PM »
What would these deep space colonies do?  Why would one build them?

I mean, we can already do deep space maintenance using maintenance modules.  We can do deep space shore leave using recreation modules.  We can do deep space supply, fuel, and ammunition caches using tankers, colliers, and supply ships.  We can do sensor stations with big buoys.  What other purposes could a deep space colony serve?

Being a big Isaac Arthur fan, I understand the RP desire to build deep space habitats, but would they actually serve a purpose?

Based on the suggestions in this thread, I see a purpose beyond RP if you find a planet far away, where the gravity is too large to allow habitation with infrastructure and it has either an anomaly that you want to utilize or enough minerals that you would want to build mines for instead of automines. There are probably other specific uses, but basically any time you have an installation that requires population, and the gravity does not allow for any kind of infrastructure.

Eventually we will be able to use genetical engineering to circumvent that, but even then it might only be a supplement to exploiting every possible ressource.
 

Offline Barkhorn

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Re: Using orbital habitats
« Reply #38 on: August 12, 2020, 04:41:37 PM »
That's not a deep space habitat though.  It'd be in orbit of a body.  That makes sense to me.  Having a habitat float around in deep space millions of km away from a body doesn't seem useful.

Trade goods doesn't make sense either.  Why move the habitats to deep space?  They can make trade goods in orbit right where they were built, there's no benefit to putting them in deep space.  In fact there's only downsides, increased fuel usage, and decreased trade throughput to name two.
 

Offline Froggiest1982

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Re: Using orbital habitats
« Reply #39 on: August 12, 2020, 05:40:55 PM »
That's not a deep space habitat though.  It'd be in orbit of a body.  That makes sense to me.  Having a habitat float around in deep space millions of km away from a body doesn't seem useful.

Trade goods doesn't make sense either.  Why move the habitats to deep space?  They can make trade goods in orbit right where they were built, there's no benefit to putting them in deep space.  In fact there's only downsides, increased fuel usage, and decreased trade throughput to name two.

I already expressed some concerns and posted on the suggestion area what I think of Orbital Habitats. To dont repeat myself I leave a link here http://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php?topic=11771.msg139082#msg139082

Offline QuakeIV

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Re: Using orbital habitats
« Reply #40 on: August 12, 2020, 08:14:26 PM »
Locality to jump points, the potential for them to later have mobility to some extent (even if its very very slow), the potential to put them in very remote locations that aren't planets.
 

Offline skoormit

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Re: Using orbital habitats
« Reply #41 on: August 12, 2020, 09:23:48 PM »
Locality to jump points, the potential for them to later have mobility to some extent (even if its very very slow), the potential to put them in very remote locations that aren't planets.

But what is the point of putting a population in these places?
What worthwhile thing do you get from a population that you can't already get from a station/ship?
 

Offline xenoscepter

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Re: Using orbital habitats
« Reply #42 on: August 12, 2020, 09:47:19 PM »
@skroomit

Trade Goods and Wealth. Deep Space Colonies would produce both. Not sure how they'd handle Infrastructure though, maybe have it so they produced both types?
 

Offline QuakeIV

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Re: Using orbital habitats
« Reply #43 on: August 13, 2020, 02:43:25 AM »
Industry at a good location is what I would gain from it...

You cant repair armor damage, produce ships, do research, or build things in general without a colony.  A good spot for one is rather important from both a strategic and economic perspective to make it both easier to defend and also easier to deliver minerals to.
 

Offline smoelf (OP)

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Re: Using orbital habitats
« Reply #44 on: August 13, 2020, 06:24:54 AM »
That's not a deep space habitat though.  It'd be in orbit of a body.  That makes sense to me.  Having a habitat float around in deep space millions of km away from a body doesn't seem useful.

That's fair. Yeah, in that case I fail to see cases where they are useful in a way that can't be accomplished by other means.