v1.12.0 Changes Discussion Thread

[Droll]

Although this isn't 1.12.0 specific I have a question regarding ground forces and environmental tolerances.

If my race has multiple species because of conquest - how does environmental tolerance work for ground forces? Does it use the species tolerance of my primary species (humans) all the time? Or does it depend on the training location?
E.g. My ground units trained from a population that has an alien species will use the alien tolerances as a benchmark whereas stuff trained on earth will use human tolerances to determine which debuffs are in play.

If my example is true then there are interesting possibilities of differentiation between local forces and has interesting implications for when species level gene modding becomes a thing.

[wedgebert]

On a similar topic, a variant on 'Earth falls into the Sun' comes to mind:
Instead of being tied to a specific body, have it affect whichever (remaining) body is closest to the Sun.  IE it starts with Mercury and works its way out.  On the one hand the player gets a little more time before Earth goes bye-bye, but on the other hand Mars isn't much of a refuge because it is next on the list.  The asteroid belt will take a while to clear before Jupiter starts the plunge, but its moons aren't very habitable to start with.  No matter how you cut it, the objective is to escape Sol.

If that still isn't enough of a challenge then have it affect every body in Sol simultaneously.

Might be more effective if it affects a specific radius that slowly increases to consume more and more bodies. Otherwise when it gets to the asteroid belt, it's going to basically stall there as it has to wait for each individual asteroid to plummet into the sun before starting on the next.

You could even do some interesting things with it. Maybe a spoiler race has a weapon that can induce a collapse on any star. Perhaps there's a line of research to counteract it, either by slowing the rate of the radius's increase or (an expensive) project/weapon that can stop it altogether. Whether that means all bodies stay in their new orbit, or it just saves any unaffected ones.

You could even work it into the lore somehow (extra gravity is leaking in?) and have it affect TN travel, slowing ships the closer to the center they get.

[Droll]

On a similar topic, a variant on 'Earth falls into the Sun' comes to mind:
Instead of being tied to a specific body, have it affect whichever (remaining) body is closest to the Sun.  IE it starts with Mercury and works its way out.  On the one hand the player gets a little more time before Earth goes bye-bye, but on the other hand Mars isn't much of a refuge because it is next on the list.  The asteroid belt will take a while to clear before Jupiter starts the plunge, but its moons aren't very habitable to start with.  No matter how you cut it, the objective is to escape Sol.

If that still isn't enough of a challenge then have it affect every body in Sol simultaneously.

You could even work it into the lore somehow (extra gravity is leaking in?) and have it affect TN travel, slowing ships the closer to the center they get.

VB6 actually had certain systems be in nebulae that did exactly that, i do wonder when we get those back and what changes they would undergo.

[Steve Walmsley (OP)]

I've changed the greenhouse gas mechanics post, so that greenhouse and anti-greenhouse are independent and dust is now treated as an anti-greenhouse gas.

http://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php?topic=11593.msg136866#msg136866

Question, does this mean we can now terraform dust out of the atmosphere...asking for a friend with some glassed planets?

No, it is just treated as a gas for the calculation.

[Steve Walmsley (OP)]

I've changed the greenhouse gas mechanics post, so that greenhouse and anti-greenhouse are independent and dust is now treated as an anti-greenhouse gas.

http://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php?topic=11593.msg136866#msg136866

At the end of the "note" section you call dust a greenhouse gas, I think to avoid confusion you should say anti-greenhouse gas there even if it is obvious from the equations.

Good point - I've changed it.

[xenoscepter]

Being able to Terraform Dust out of the Atmosphere would be nice, I mean there is still the radiation to contend with... not to mention the collateral...

[Droll]

Being able to Terraform Dust out of the Atmosphere would be nice, I mean there is still the radiation to contend with... not to mention the collateral...

I am not against ability to terraform dust but consider that it would make beam based bombardment very powerful. Beam bombardment does not radiate the planet so the only medium-term effect is the dust - which can already be counteracted through copious application of infrastructure.

[Zincat]

Frankly, that would make sense.  Let's be honest, if you want to conquer a planet and use nukes, you HAVE to suffer because of that.

Being able to terraform away the dust would make sense imo.
Also, in my opinion the amount of dust raised by beam weapons should be minimal anyway....

[Tikigod]

Being able to Terraform Dust out of the Atmosphere would be nice, I mean there is still the radiation to contend with... not to mention the collateral...

I am not against ability to terraform dust but consider that it would make beam based bombardment very powerful. Beam bombardment does not radiate the planet so the only medium-term effect is the dust - which can already be counteracted through copious application of infrastructure.

It still requires the act of introducing some means of terraforming into a area that until recently was enemy territory and one they may very well wish to reclaim. So it's not just some blanket net gain without additional risk.

[Malorn]

Frankly, that would make sense.  Let's be honest, if you want to conquer a planet and use nukes, you HAVE to suffer because of that.

Being able to terraform away the dust would make sense imo.
Also, in my opinion the amount of dust raised by beam weapons should be minimal anyway....

Consider the power of said weapons... this isn't a sci-fi style laser, this is a real combat laser, which means it produces superheating and explosions when it strikes a target. Let alone railguns, which also are 'beams' in terms of this discussion. Terraforming dust makes sense, but beams causing dust also makes a lot of sense.

I am not against ability to terraform dust but consider that it would make beam based bombardment very powerful. Beam bombardment does not radiate the planet so the only medium-term effect is the dust - which can already be counteracted through copious application of infrastructure.

To be fair, beam bombardment is dangerous, MUCH more dangerous then standing off and launching vast numbers of missiles, it's also quite a bit less effective per tonnage involved. Currently planets cannot mount missile weapons, meaning that if your fleet is out of beam range, it's safe. By definition, STOs outrange equal tech ships, that means if you want to use beam weapons, you are risking quite a lot of return fire(and I would be fine with more of a buff of STOs, personally, like letting them have better tracking speeds then the minimum, or more armor). And if there isn't return fire...well...then it's only a matter of time, regardless.

It's not like it normally takes resources to reduce dust, just time. Terraforming is just a way to make that time shorter using resources.

[Zincat]

Frankly, that would make sense.  Let's be honest, if you want to conquer a planet and use nukes, you HAVE to suffer because of that.

Being able to terraform away the dust would make sense imo.
Also, in my opinion the amount of dust raised by beam weapons should be minimal anyway....

Consider the power of said weapons... this isn't a sci-fi style laser, this is a real combat laser, which means it produces superheating and explosions when it strikes a target. Let alone railguns, which also are 'beams' in terms of this discussion. Terraforming dust makes sense, but beams causing dust also makes a lot of sense.

Yes, but here we're talking of enough dust to actually lower the temperature of the entire planet. I'm just saying, I don't think the "beam" weapons we have are strong enough to bring up THAT much dust in the atmosphere.
These are not continent or planet destroying lasers/ mass drivers, like in star wars or other Sci-fi settings

Disclaimer, I have not really seriously bombarded a planet yet, so I don't know exactly how much dust beam weapon bombardment creates. I'm just saying, on principle it should be little compared to the scale of a large planet.

[Thrake]

Why can't we terraform the dust away by beaming it already? 

[Froggiest1982]

Why can't we terraform the dust away by beaming it already? 

space vacuumER?

[xenoscepter]

Oh god, now I'm imagining all of my terraformers as that space vacuum cleaner from Space Balls....

WHYYYYYYYY!?!?!?!

[SpikeTheHobbitMage]

Oh god, now I'm imagining all of my terraformers as that space vacuum cleaner from Space Balls....

WHYYYYYYYY!?!?!?!

I recall a proposal from a while back for either a terraforming mode or a new module that indiscriminately removes atmosphere.  If it also removed dust then it would truly be worthy of the name "Megamaid".