Author Topic: Refit cost calculation  (Read 458 times)

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Offline Cristo (OP)

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Refit cost calculation
« on: January 06, 2021, 12:01:07 PM »
Here: http://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php?topic=8495.msg117467#msg117467
Steve explains that the refit calculation is:
(ABS(Current HS - Refit HS) / Current HS) * Refit Cost.

1. What is 'ABS' - Forum and google search failing me on that one!
2. What defines the 'refit cost' at the end of the formula?

Thanks!
 

Online Iceranger

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Re: Refit cost calculation
« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2021, 12:09:48 PM »
ABS -> absolute value, abs(x) = x if x >=0, and -x otherwise.
Refit cost (of refitting class A to class B) is the total cost of the components that are on class B but not on class A. The components on A but not on B is not relevant in refit cost calculation.

The formula is for the 'size difference' part of the refit cost. What's not shown in that formula (but exists in-game) is an 'overhead' of 20% of the refit cost.

My ship and missile optimizer (http://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php?topic=10999.0) provides an easy way to check the refit costs between classes before it is properly implemented in-game ;)
« Last Edit: January 06, 2021, 12:13:34 PM by Iceranger »
 
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Offline Zap0

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Re: Refit cost calculation
« Reply #2 on: January 06, 2021, 12:10:22 PM »
Abs would be absolute value, meaning turn any negative number into a positive number, and positive numbers stay positive. It's a common mathematical function.

The refit cost would appear to be simply the cost of the new components that get bolted onto the ship. I think there may also be an overhead cost involved?
 
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Offline Cristo (OP)

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Re: Refit cost calculation
« Reply #3 on: January 06, 2021, 12:13:34 PM »
Ahh that explains why googling 'aroura abs' didn't get me anywhere - thanks!

Thanks for the answers - and thanks for the tool Iceranger, taking a look!
 

Offline dsedrez

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Re: Refit cost calculation
« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2021, 12:00:19 PM »
 Hi! I'm running a game for RP purposes, and I want to build a training fleet made of frigates (basically a 3500t hull with a very economical engine and the cheapest possible weapons, FCs and sensors, plus an Auxiliary control and a CIC).  When necessary, the crews would graduate to a newly-built ship of the same size, but designed for combat.  Most basic components, including armor, are the same.  Most new components: weapons, FCs, sensors and powerplants, would be pre-built and available to speed up the refit.

To implement this in Aurora, where crews and crew ratings are tied to the hull, I intend to use the Refit function.  That is, converting the Training Frigate to a Combat version, once a possible opponent is found.  That's because they *do* want a fleet *now*, but currently their weapons tech is ridiculously low (poor research stats, high costs of research installations, and also high priority to economy and just colonizing the bodies in the same system).

So I saved the game and SM'ed a version with future tech to play with, to see if the strategy would be viable.  However I found that the final cost of refitting was higher than building the combat version from the outset.  (the combat version is armed with an expensive particle lance and max-ranged FC, plus a powerful engine for 2x racial default speed).  The 20% overhead cost above explains part of it, but not all.  Because the refit cost was closer to 120% of the *total* cost of a new ship!

I got curious, and I SMed the Training Frigate already built into a mostly empty hull, with all the components specific to the Training version ripped off and replaced by fuel tanks (most everything except for armor, bridge, engineering, CIC, crew quarters), and saw what the shipyard would report as the cost of refitting to the combat design.

Now, instead of a 20% overhead of the cost of a new ship, it fell to only around 5% more. . .  So there's something missing in that formula, and somehow the original extra components that are being ripped off count somewhere?

Or, maybe, there's something in the calculation about the endurance of the crew? Because of course the training frigate has an extra-long endurance while the combat ones are between 1-3 months?

The shipyard, for this test, was retooled to a design (of the same size) carrying the combat FC and the most expensive components of the three combat designs I intended to try, because I was also testing for a single shipyard able to build all three, for maximum flexibility.  Does it make any difference what the shipyard has as build design?

Another question, in the same subject: how would the availability of the new components, pre-built in the planet, such as engines, FCs and weapons, change the refit cost formula? Would the full cost still apply in the calculation, with the cost of each pre-built component being deducted from the total cost?

Thank you for your help, and sorry for the long post!
 

Offline dsedrez

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Re: Refit cost calculation
« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2021, 12:19:33 PM »
Ok, noob here, forgot to search for other threads on the same subject.  Sorry!

One of my questions is answered in hxxp: aurora2. pentarch. org/index. php?topic=11330. msg131915#msg131915 , namely that the removed components also contribute to the refit cost, at a small percentage of their cost (50%? 25%?).  The other question, on the pre-built components for the refit, still stand.
 

Offline captainwolfer

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Re: Refit cost calculation
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2021, 12:54:44 PM »
Pre-built components do have their cost deducted from the final cost and build time of a refit if the "Use components" checkbox is ticked. I don't think that the total overhead cost is reduced. However, I have found that if you use auto-refit, it only uses pre-built components on the first refitted ship, and any ships that the auto-refit command refits after the first do not use pre-built components. So if you want to use pre-built components in refits, do not use the auto-refit command

It doesn't make a difference what design the shipyard is tooled for, aside from the shipyard needing to be able to build what the ship is being refitted to.
 
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Offline dsedrez

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Re: Refit cost calculation
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2021, 01:17:35 PM »
Thank you, captainwolfer! Though that puts a damper on my refitting strategy, I really don't like adding yet more micromanagement compared to what I'm doing now.  Maybe I won't bother with the pre-built components, it's not worth it, unless I'm in a hurry for that particular ship. . .

I've also found (how I missed that before) the Refit Details tab.  And, reading elsewhere, there's a display bug for the overhead cost in the v. 1. 11 I'm using for this game.  But my RP race is going so well, I'll continue playing on 1. 11 at least for a little while. . . 

The refit tab included a huge overhead for size difference.  Somehow I forgot to adjust the size of the Training Frigate to the size of the Combat ones I tested, so there was a size difference overhead as well.  I fixed that, and it made the costs fall a little.  The overhead still counts, and makes sense, though it's still huge.

Ugh, and my link was completely shredded between copying it and posting here.  And I wanted to post the designs I was using but no idea as to how yet.  I have to read a tutorial on how to use this forum. . .  Sorry again!
 

Online nuclearslurpee

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Re: Refit cost calculation
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2021, 01:22:46 PM »
Refit cost has three factors: the first and second, as you've found, are the build cost of all the new components and the 20% refit cost on top of that. Additionally, a third factor is any size difference between the ships which can introduce a multiplier of up to 1.2x. Since you haven't reported anything about the size difference I am guessing this is a factor. There is no contribution from the components removed in the refit process.

EDIT:

The refit tab included a huge overhead for size difference.  Somehow I forgot to adjust the size of the Training Frigate to the size of the Combat ones I tested, so there was a size difference overhead as well.  I fixed that, and it made the costs fall a little.  The overhead still counts, and makes sense, though it's still huge.

Yup. Also, any size difference likely means you have different amounts of armor, crew quarters, etc. which adds to the new component cost on top of how expensive engines and particle lances are.

Quote
Ugh, and my link was completely shredded between copying it and posting here.  And I wanted to post the designs I was using but no idea as to how yet.  I have to read a tutorial on how to use this forum. . .  Sorry again!

New forum accounts have spaces added after certain characters, including periods, until they have made ten posts, in order to prevent spam bots by mangling any links they would post. Probably not really necessary these days since you have to register through a manual process anyways, but it's not much trouble once you've made a few posts.
 
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Offline dsedrez

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Re: Refit cost calculation
« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2021, 01:28:03 PM »
Okay, Thanks nuclearslurpee! So it's not me doing something dumb, at least this time  ;D

This should count as one more for my total then! I'll have to post more to fix that.  But there's so much to read already I'm not sure if I'm asking something that was already answered somewhere else.  I have a tab explosion problem on my browser because of Aurora  ::)
 

Online nuclearslurpee

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Re: Refit cost calculation
« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2021, 02:01:30 PM »
Okay, Thanks nuclearslurpee! So it's not me doing something dumb, at least this time  ;D

This should count as one more for my total then! I'll have to post more to fix that.  But there's so much to read already I'm not sure if I'm asking something that was already answered somewhere else.  I have a tab explosion problem on my browser because of Aurora  ::)

I will always recommend a new member mosey over to the Fiction sections and comment on some of the stories there. So as not to be shamelessly self-promoting I'd recommend starting with Zap0's story which features several Earth nations getting up to space hijinks. Or you could always read Steve's stuff, he's just started a new campaign so there's not a lot of catching up to do yet.

Or just jump in and start arguing with people about game mechanics, that's also fun.  :P
 
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Offline dsedrez

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Re: Refit cost calculation
« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2021, 02:04:48 PM »
Will do!  ;D
Maybe I'll post my own story at some point.  I *am* writing it, after all.  Though I'd have to back to the saves to get the printscreens.
 

 

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