Change to infrastructure costs

[Froggiest1982 (OP)]

Hi all,

so another thing bothering me for a while is that I have to spend minerals to produce infrastructure while I can then have them build for "free" by my colonies. So I have 2 things in my mind.

Proposed model 1:
Only planets with active deposits of duranium and mercassium should be able to auto-build infrastructure.
The above work in the assumption that having access to the mineral equals the ability to produce infrastructures. This will mean that all the other bodies will have to be "manually supported". This will add a layer of production/logistics as we could have worlds focused entirely on building infrastructures for the worlds that cannot, without necessarily build the infrastructure ourselves (which I understand could be a pain). It would be easy to set up as it will work pretty much the same as the Alien Artifacts.

In the beginning, I also thought they should consume such minerals but that would be too radical.

Proposed model 2:
Infrastructure should only cost wealth.
The above will level the play as the infrastructure will only cost money considering that other planets can build them out of thin air later on.

I know is a very small component especially as you pretty much don't need any infrastructure once either Mars or Luna are terraformed and that's why I think that solution number 1 perhaps could add something to the gameplay also keeping more in line with current requirements for installation production.

[nuclearslurpee]

Interesting ideas, and I like the topic as infrastructure is honestly a bit annoying to me, even though I get the sense that I build it more than many people (it seems like a lot of people will only colonize a world after terraforming...I am not that patient).

One thing to keep in mind is that the "free" infrastructure is balanced by being built quite slowly relative to how quickly factories can build it. The current implementation is admittedly consistent, as it matches how civilian companies of all types currently operate as they basically produce ships, fuel, automines, and troops out of money.

Idea #1 I think is more likely to see some kind of implementation, as it is a smaller change and remains mechanically consistent aside from adding the restriction. If it is added I think the production rate of civilian infrastructure should be increased since fewer bodies can build it, however this could be risky as Earth would produce more infrastructure in the early game which would drive faster colonization. Maybe an alternative is to tie it not to minerals but rather the presence of factories on the colony surface? This would represent having the facilities in place to actually produce the stuff, however it doesn't solve the handwaving of resource requirements.

Idea #2 is an interesting thought, however I think it is quite risky since removing the mineral cost of infrastructure makes the early economy suddenly much easier to manage, as you can solve any early duranium deficit by switching to infrastructure builds. I think it also somewhat trivializes early stages of a new colony, as it allows basically to ship the initial population and some factories, and then you can build infrastructure without minerals to build up a colony quite rapidly. This could be interesting but I think it is too radical a shift for an incremental version...if Aurora 2 ever happened then maybe.

One thing I would like to see in addition is a button or checkbox to prevent population "free" infrastructure production, mainly so it can be disabled when using orbital habitats over Venus, etc. as a way of preventing population from moving to the surface and cratering the productivity.

[Froggiest1982 (OP)]

One thing I would like to see in addition is a button or checkbox to prevent population "free" infrastructure production, mainly so it can be disabled when using orbital habitats over Venus, etc. as a way of preventing population from moving to the surface and cratering the productivity.

+1

[Blogaugis]

Another alternative that I have thought of:
Create 2 new types of civilian infrastructure, the normal and LG, respectively.

The differences are, that civilian infrastructure cannot be built via factories, only by civilians. It also cannot be transported, essentially locking it in place.
Though, with the terraforming, I do feel that it might be a bit of a waste, especially with normal civilian infrastructure...


But overall, I would like to see some ways to conserve the trans-newtonian elements, and go for a renewable resource use approach. So, I like the idea#2.

[Droll]

I think the "only wealth" approach also makes sense on a realism stand point. I think its feasible for infrastructure to work just as well when made with newtonian elements instead of TN elements. I think many of the other trade goods already acknowledge the presence of newtonian elements since they do not use TN elements to make either.

[Jorgen_CAB]

In my opinion the civilians should instead consume minerals and if you don't have enough to satisfy the civilian market the planet moral goes down and both you and the civilian industry produce less efficient. CMC simple provide free resources in this version as you need to provide for the TN materials that the civilians need. The more advanced your civilian economy the more TN resources they will require for morale to remain unchanged. We also should need to provide fuel for civilian ships... not necessarily that their ship spends fuel... but based on the amount of ships and their fuel use you need to spend a certain amount of fuel on each colony based on the amount of population there.

Currently the civilians use of TN materials are just abstracted.

In the same vain I also thin that terraformers should spend some minerals to operate. It could just be as easy as dumping some minerals on the planet that is used by the terraforming installations or stations in orbit.

In addition to this I also would like all commercial engine equipped ships or stations should have a wealth cost to operate in addition to all this.

I simply would not mind if the economy was a tiny bit more complex... there need to be a bit more sinks to put resources into as the economy snowballs to easy in general.

[Blogaugis]

In my opinion the civilians should instead consume minerals and if you don't have enough to satisfy the civilian market the planet moral goes down and both you and the civilian industry produce less efficient. CMC simple provide free resources in this version as you need to provide for the TN materials that the civilians need. The more advanced your civilian economy the more TN resources they will require for morale to remain unchanged. We also should need to provide fuel for civilian ships... not necessarily that their ship spends fuel... but based on the amount of ships and their fuel use you need to spend a certain amount of fuel on each colony based on the amount of population there.

Currently the civilians use of TN materials are just abstracted.

In the same vain I also thin that terraformers should spend some minerals to operate. It could just be as easy as dumping some minerals on the planet that is used by the terraforming installations or stations in orbit.

In addition to this I also would like all commercial engine equipped ships or stations should have a wealth cost to operate in addition to all this.

I simply would not mind if the economy was a tiny bit more complex... there need to be a bit more sinks to put resources into as the economy snowballs to easy in general.

Phooow...
On one hand yes...
But considering that civilians are automated, there probably going to be bunch of bugs the moment such features are implemented. And, they are going to be frustrating for obsessive perfectionists... How dare does this civilian peasant waste my RESOURCES?!

On one hand, this could make the resource situation even more desperate.

It also would demand more micromanagement.


And... Well, this change would essentially make EVERYTHING that you do cost resources, and since they are finite, this would eventually lead to a point where there are no more resources. Anywhere. All of them consumed.
Year 8000 of the campaign - the Empire is starving. Rebellion is inevitable... And with numerous different planets rebelling, there are even less resources...

By the way, do destroyed ground units drop their resources? Considering that you can at least salvage spacecraft, can you do the same with ground forces?


But overall, I would agree with the civilians consuming resources IF those resources are renewable. Otherwise? No.

[nuclearslurpee]

I agree with most of what Blogaugis has said, though I do want to point out that resources in Aurora are technically infinite as you can always generate new systems. Rate of gathering of course flatlines as the empire expands to infinity unless the empire is broken up i.e. Sol is abandoned, which most players I think are loathe to do.

However it is an important point, it's not good if civilians are consuming resources without any player control as this would be frustrating in terms of gameplay. In the early game the last thing anyone needs is an unstoppable sink for duranium which is already a critical resource. Later on this would motivate weird approaches to colonization to minimize civilian population at mining colonies, particularly manned mines being avoided as the extra corundium cost of automines is worth paying considering the minerals saved by not using manned mines with greedy civilians taking a share. While I am in favor of having more specialization of colonies that would also likely follow, this is a very forced rationale for it and not RP friendly by being so.

The solution would be to put a button for player control for any circumstance where civilians consume resources, which I suspect would not go over well with Steve who has stated that he doesn't want to give the player too much control of civilians.

Other ideas such as adding mineral cost to terraforming I think are more interesting, as this is a player-controlled mechanic adding some complexity and a sink for a usually surplus resource. Admittedly though it doesn't really add any decisions to make, just an extra micro step but a very small one. Wealth costs for commercial ships is also interesting, flavor-wise I'm not sure how I feel about it but it adds no micromanagement and makes wealth a bit more interesting. Usually it is easy to run a surplus so this would possibly add a bit more challenge.

[Blogaugis]

I agree with most of what Blogaugis has said, though I do want to point out that resources in Aurora are technically infinite as you can always generate new systems. Rate of gathering of course flatlines as the empire expands to infinity unless the empire is broken up i.e. Sol is abandoned, which most players I think are loathe to do.

There is a... somewhat cinical and game-y question:
Do right now civilian ships cost resources?

Because, I almost see the potential of unlimited resources by salvaging their wrecks.
You allow attacks to happen on civilian shipping - only to extract the resources from the wrecks! 

But if this is really a way to get infinite resources... boy, something really feels off.


As for infinite systems...
Well, that limit is probably decided by the capabilities of your computer.

I guess the last resort is spacemaster.


But really, I think that it might be an interesting way to have planets regenerate a very small portion of their resources - as they catch those TN elements thanks to their gravity... Though, it would encourage the player to expand rapidly, like a time limit above their heads, as otherwise NPRs going to take those potential resource producing objects of gravity.

So, on one hand, limited resources do give you infinite time, the question essentially becomes can you successfully siphon the resources off of your opponent, while minimizing yours (battle with salvage).
While unlimited, will essentially force you to go out and get more planets than your opponent or risk being outnumbered. Salvage could still play a role, but it is less significant. Although, the "golden medium" between these 2 is decided by how quickly and in what numbers do these resources regenerate.
A formula could be made out of this, but I want to experiment with Aurora 4X, not with excel spreadsheets...

[Density]

Do right now civilian ships cost resources?

Because, I almost see the potential of unlimited resources by salvaging their wrecks.
You allow attacks to happen on civilian shipping - only to extract the resources from the wrecks! 

But if this is really a way to get infinite resources... boy, something really feels off.

Each civilian shipping line starts with its own wealth, which it uses to construct ships. It gains this wealth by pulling loads. So if a civie ship gets blown up, that line will take longer to build new ships. In theory, this is still infinate, as new lines can spawn, but we're talking about a trickle instead of a river.

Or, as Steve has said elsewhere, Aurora is a complex form of solitaire, and there are easier ways to cheat in it.

[Froggiest1982 (OP)]

Another alternative that I have thought of:
Create 2 new types of civilian infrastructure, the normal and LG, respectively.

The differences are, that civilian infrastructure cannot be built via factories, only by civilians. It also cannot be transported, essentially locking it in place.
Though, with the terraforming, I do feel that it might be a bit of a waste, especially with normal civilian infrastructure...


But overall, I would like to see some ways to conserve the trans-newtonian elements, and go for a renewable resource use approach. So, I like the idea#2.

I like this idea and to complete it I would add a Convert CivInst to Installation so that a player could then spend minerals if really wants to have access to unused installations.

[Jorgen_CAB]

In general I would say the game have more or less infinite resources already as your computer probably will melt from the strain of playing any sort of campaign where you have an empire advanced and big enough to use up all the resources in all the systems you can find... systems also basically are infinite as you can just add more and more as you play a campaign if needed.

My resoning for adding more resource consumption is to keep the snowball from rolling to steep down the hill in general. I also see it as a good simulation in general that the civilian part of any factions also demand TN resources to function. It should basically be tied to the Wealth expanding technology... the higher you research this the more wealth your population create but also the more TN resources they require.

I also think it "fixes" some issues. Such as you now want to research better fuel efficiency for your civilian fleet as it require you to spend less fuel for your colonies for example. Infrastructure from population are no longer directly "free" even if they are cheaper than the infrastructure that you build yourself probably.

Wealth in general require some resources to exist in the first place, but good colonies spread out will make whatever wealth you get more effective through trade. Trade goods are not entirely free as you need population to produce it and they consume some resources.

The amount of resource would need to be balanced of course in some way, but it should not make population a drag on your economy... just absorb some of the profit to flatten the snowball curve a bit.

There also could be some differences in population total so really large populations require slightly more or less resources depending on the effect you are after. I would like larger population use more resources (more luxuries needed) which then would favor spreading your population out to some extent, while concentrating them favors leadership bonuses so still are useful... it give you actual choices to make.

[nuclearslurpee]

The amount of resource would need to be balanced of course in some way, but it should not make population a drag on your economy... just absorb some of the profit to flatten the snowball curve a bit.

A simple balance might be to allow populations to only use the resources which are in excess, at some small (or tech-adjusted?) fraction.

This way if I have a duranium crunch, my populations are not exacerbating it by consuming duranium to build not-so-free-anymore infrastructure, but if I balance the economy and make a small surplus production, say +100 per increment, then maybe 5% as a maximum of that can be consumed by the pops if they feel like doing something useful in the background. Obviously scaled with population

If this resource consumption is used for all trade goods plus essentials such as CSL fuel, I think it adds a nice background dynamic to the trade system.

Ideally there should also be a checkbox to turn this off entirely ("communism button" ) so that civilians aren't sucking minerals from resource stockpile worlds (i.e. which are being stockpiled until a freighter picks them up and takes them to another system). I think this level of control over civilians would be okay as it is only an on/off toggle and the player cannot control what civilians do with the resources.

I think this would be a neat way to solve the problems stated in the OP - making free infrastructure and other things cost something to build, without making the cost onerous, and also requiring some actual investment instead of dumping 10m pops in a sweatshop on Luna.

[Jorgen_CAB]

The amount of resource would need to be balanced of course in some way, but it should not make population a drag on your economy... just absorb some of the profit to flatten the snowball curve a bit.

A simple balance might be to allow populations to only use the resources which are in excess, at some small (or tech-adjusted?) fraction.

This way if I have a duranium crunch, my populations are not exacerbating it by consuming duranium to build not-so-free-anymore infrastructure, but if I balance the economy and make a small surplus production, say +100 per increment, then maybe 5% as a maximum of that can be consumed by the pops if they feel like doing something useful in the background. Obviously scaled with population

If this resource consumption is used for all trade goods plus essentials such as CSL fuel, I think it adds a nice background dynamic to the trade system.

Ideally there should also be a checkbox to turn this off entirely ("communism button" ) so that civilians aren't sucking minerals from resource stockpile worlds (i.e. which are being stockpiled until a freighter picks them up and takes them to another system). I think this level of control over civilians would be okay as it is only an on/off toggle and the player cannot control what civilians do with the resources.

I think this would be a neat way to solve the problems stated in the OP - making free infrastructure and other things cost something to build, without making the cost onerous, and also requiring some actual investment instead of dumping 10m pops in a sweatshop on Luna.

I would just attach a drop down menu for each colony where I set the amount of resources I allow the colony to assume which also translate to the amount of morale penalty as well. So if I set it to 50% the colony consume only 50% of the resource and take some morale penalties (economic production modifier perhaps)... the penalties will have to depend on balance.

Turning the feature of should probably not be a big deal for Steve similar to turning of Maintenance for ships when you start a game.

[firsal]

I think civilian TN mineral consumption should be tied to planetary population; for example, per million population on a given body there would be a set rate of mineral consumption (say maybe a total of 100 tons of various TN minerals per month) at certain tech levels (perhaps dictated by the wealth generation technology). I think tying civilian consumption to trade good production, with different goods needing different types and quantities of TN minerals, sounds really cool in theory. However, in practice, organizing mineral shipments for a constantly-changing civilian market could prove to be a micromanagement headache.

I also agree with the idea that the player should be able to set some sort of % modifier to consumption as a form of "rationing"; for example, if one sets consumption to 50%, then resource consumption would be reduced to 50 tons per million population per month, with a corresponding increase in planetary unrest and perhaps a decrease in wealth generation. Likewise, being unable to fulfill civilian TN mineral needs should cause similar penalties to rationing. Furthermore, while these mineral needs are met, civilian infrastructure production should proceed as normal, with corresponding decreases when shortages and/or rationing occurs.

Civilian mining operations should also aid towards fulfilling the resource consumption of populated colonies, although I'm not sure of the best way to go about implementing such a mechanic. I'm thinking minerals sold to the civilian sector should subtract from the mineral consumption of the most populous colony in the system. However, this would create the need to track "civilian" stockpiles of TN minerals which introduces additional complexity.

The lack of TN mineral consumption by populations has been bugging me for some time, as theoretically one can turtle up in Sol with military craft made with whatever limited resources were found in-system. The introduction of true TN resource scarcity would drive players to explore, and come into conflict with alien races. The introduction of civilian TN mineral requirements could also introduce planetary blockades as an interesting tactic: assuming that the population doesn't have any local mineral production, a fleet could "starve" into submission the planetary population as their TN mineral stockpile runs out and unrest rises. This could tie neatly into surrender mechanics for a planetary population, though I'm not sure how the surrender mechanics for a population work at present.