Suggestions Thread for v2.4.0

[lumporr]

In my "war of the worlds" game I have destroyed...
16 ships of 30kt
12 ships of 20kt
4 ships of 10kt
2 ships of 10kt
without being able to gain intel on what the hull classifications might be, despite many of the battles involving cruisers carrying ELINT modules, engaging at beam ranges.

I know the class name, and partial information on sensors, engines, weapons etc. from salvage.

But not the hull classifications.

now that I think about it, the only ships that I have hull classifications for, are ones that I have boarded, or saw being launched due to having sensor coverage of Mars at the time of their launch.

Everything else is XX unknown hull classification. I'm using "real ship/class names".

Is it because I have not translated the Martian language ? (they're extremely xenophobic and refuse to communicate)

You can just set a hull classification? I don't see why the inherent classification is any more useful than one you give it?

It isn't necessarily, but on the other hand, detecting "15x XX Unknown" might prompt a different response than detecting "15x DDG Absolute Carnage". Might want to bring escorts for that second one.

[LuuBluum]

Well, assuming that their hull classification isn't misinformation on their part. Y'know, German tank problem and whatnot. Just use misleading hull classifications and fool your foes!

That and the fact that hull classification isn't followed in a general way anyway. Is a destroyer a destroyer based on size, or purpose? Who knows?

[nuclearslurpee]

You can just set a hull classification? I don't see why the inherent classification is any more useful than one you give it?

The "inherent" classification, if known, is useful intelligence as it can tell you something about the class you might not know otherwise. This can be military information (e.g., a CG or DDG is sure to be armed with missiles) or non-military (e.g., identifying important commercial ship classes, which can tell you what the aliens might be up to when you see them flying around). Of course, in the case of multiple player races deception and trickery is possible but that's up to the player to determine how to handle anyways. NPRs use descriptive hull types.

I think the general sense in the thread right now is that (1) such intelligence should not be "free" when using the Real Class Names checkbox (and inconsistently so at that) and that (2) being able to gather such intelligence by ELINT would be a cool feature.

Well, assuming that their hull classification isn't misinformation on their part. Y'know, German tank problem and whatnot. Just use misleading hull classifications and fool your foes!

That and the fact that hull classification isn't followed in a general way anyway. Is a destroyer a destroyer based on size, or purpose? Who knows?

For player races this is always a question, but NPRs classify their ships based on size and purpose pretty rigorously except for some more flavorful spoiler designations.

[Louella]

I think the general sense in the thread right now is that (1) such intelligence should not be "free" when using the Real Class Names checkbox (and inconsistently so at that) and that (2) being able to gather such intelligence by ELINT would be a cool feature.

Determining the hull type based on observed information would be great. Like, there's already a message where it says "based on observation of [ship name] the class information has been updated" or something along the lines, usually when it opens fire on you with beam weapons, heh.

But like:
This is the information I have on this specific class of 30kt warships, and I've salvaged all of the wrecks.
We have engine type, sensor types, missile launcher numbers and capacity, armour thickness and type, and yet... this isn't enough information to provide a class summary or determine hull classification automatically ? 

and looking at the intel screen... I don't even have class summary intel for the two ship classes where I've boarded and captured a ship.

[paolot]

Can I meet an adversary 100 kton ship in my space? Yes.
Can they call it as battleship? battle cruiser? heavy cruiser? cruiser? escort cruiser? carrier? freighter? giant freighter? or what ever other way? Yes.
Is this classification meaningful respect the role this ship can have in the fleet? Frankly, no. IMO, its systems, weapons, armour, shields, etc. are much more meaningful, maybe together with the knowledge whether it is a military (M) or a civilian (C) ship.
If my sensors warn me about this large ship, I can be really suspicious it can be very dangerous, even if I don't know whether it is M or C (I can think a cargo loading troops and deploying them where I am unarmed).
So, IMHO, a ship classification can be a very secondary information.

[tastythighs]

Fire controls display their ECCM rating in the class summary, but active sensors don't even though they now use it; it'd be useful if the ECCM rating was displayed.

[nuclearslurpee]

Can I meet an adversary 100 kton ship in my space? Yes.
Can they call it as battleship? battle cruiser? heavy cruiser? cruiser? escort cruiser? carrier? freighter? giant freighter? or what ever other way? Yes.
Is this classification meaningful respect the role this ship can have in the fleet? Frankly, no. IMO, its systems, weapons, armour, shields, etc. are much more meaningful, maybe together with the knowledge whether it is a military (M) or a civilian (C) ship.
If my sensors warn me about this large ship, I can be really suspicious it can be very dangerous, even if I don't know whether it is M or C (I can think a cargo loading troops and deploying them where I am unarmed).
So, IMHO, a ship classification can be a very secondary information.

Underlying the discussion is the fact that right now, we have no way to get these pieces of information except by engaging in combat or (rarely) by stealing class specifications via ELINT. Except for the C/M distinction and information about any active sensors detected. Sometimes shields if the other race can be provoked to raise them.

So even if it is a secondary information, it is still useful (presuming that the other race is not deliberately mislabeling ships for deception purposes). Particularly since, again, the NPRs do classify their ships descriptively.

In any case, while I'd like access to this information via ELINT, etc., my main issue is that we can get this information "for free" when using the real ship/class names for alien classes. Finding out that the ship you just encountered is a Missile Cruiser tells you a lot of information "for free" which really should require some effort to obtain.

[Demonius]

Have mercy with an old man with bad eyes and sore back

Oder/filter by Promotion Points would be a nice addition for RP reasons in the Commanders screen.

Also for 2.5 there only seems to be a bug report thread...

[nuclearslurpee]

Also for 2.5 there only seems to be a bug report thread...

2.5 was such a small update and came out so soon that I think Steve didn't want to bother with a new thread.

Literally so small that Steve himself told us how to do the DB modding parts if we just wanted to patch the 2.5 executable onto a 2.4 game.

[Kashada]

Having reserve number for fuel and Maintenance supplies would be super nice. I know I could do the math on how many supplies I need per year but I'd have to redo it ever time I change what ships are stationed at each planet.

[lumporr]

After having created a few custom NPRs, I notice that those I check to have both missiles and a beam weapon rarely ever use the beam weapon, even in large fleets, and even on beam defence bases (which seem to be PD only). I've observed what seems to be NPRs taking fights at relative tonnage parity despite being entirely out of ammunition and lacking any offensive option. I know it might just be a roll of the dice, but it would be nice to see a more even split between the distribution of beams and missiles in NPR fleets.

[Ulzgoroth]

After having created a few custom NPRs, I notice that those I check to have both missiles and a beam weapon rarely ever use the beam weapon, even in large fleets, and even on beam defence bases (which seem to be PD only). I've observed what seems to be NPRs taking fights at relative tonnage parity despite being entirely out of ammunition and lacking any offensive option. I know it might just be a roll of the dice, but it would be nice to see a more even split between the distribution of beams and missiles in NPR fleets.

All or nothing is rather favored with offensive missiles. Your ability to win battles with them is heavily dependent on your volley volume. Trading more missile launchers for offensive beams, either on a ship or in a fleet, is risking your ability to win with missiles to buy the ability to also lose with beams...

(*) Maybe if you know you're playing against a fighter-oriented fleet it could make sense to have missile launchers for attrition against bomber strikes (likely to have scant missile defense) while planning to go to beams against enemy capital ships?

[joshuawood]

In my "war of the worlds" game I have destroyed...
16 ships of 30kt
12 ships of 20kt
4 ships of 10kt
2 ships of 10kt
without being able to gain intel on what the hull classifications might be, despite many of the battles involving cruisers carrying ELINT modules, engaging at beam ranges.

I know the class name, and partial information on sensors, engines, weapons etc. from salvage.

But not the hull classifications.

now that I think about it, the only ships that I have hull classifications for, are ones that I have boarded, or saw being launched due to having sensor coverage of Mars at the time of their launch.

Everything else is XX unknown hull classification. I'm using "real ship/class names".

Is it because I have not translated the Martian language ? (they're extremely xenophobic and refuse to communicate)

You can just set a hull classification? I don't see why the inherent classification is any more useful than one you give it?

It isn't necessarily, but on the other hand, detecting "15x XX Unknown" might prompt a different response than detecting "15x DDG Absolute Carnage". Might want to bring escorts for that second one.

You can literally set the 2nd one yourself? There is no need for the game to do that for you?

Your response is nonsensical? Unless you want the game to give you all of the information you need about a ship you have never seen before without having ever fought it? which would be REALLY weird.

[nuclearslurpee]

You can literally set the 2nd one yourself? There is no need for the game to do that for you?

There is no guarantee that the classification set by the player reflects the actual alien ship class, at least not until more intelligence is known about the class (most of which requires combat to learn). Since NPRs always do (and player races can) set hull classifications in a descriptive fashion, knowing the classification used by the other race does give you useful intelligence that setting a classification yourself won't give you (since a classification you set it going to be based on information you already have).

Your response is nonsensical?

There is no need to editorialize others' comments.

Unless you want the game to give you all of the information you need about a ship you have never seen before without having ever fought it? which would be REALLY weird.

To clarify - this is the problem. The game either (a) gives you this information for free (if you check the box to use Real Class Names - although it works a bit oddly), or (b) you can never get this information except from rare ELINT events that give you the entire class specification.

The suggestions being made come down to (1) not giving you this information for free if you use the real class name, and (2) providing a way to obtain that information via ELINT gathering (without requiring the full class design spec). This would give a way to learn something about the enemy fleet before actually fighting them, but requires an investment in the form of ELINT and time to gather the intel.

[joshuawood]

[/quote]

To clarify - this is the problem. The game either (a) gives you this information for free (if you check the box to use Real Class Names - although it works a bit oddly), or (b) you can never get this information except from rare ELINT events that give you the entire class specification.
[/quote]

This just isn't true? you can get ALL of the information relevant to the capabilities of a ship without any elint?

You can get speed, sensors, weapon ranges, ECCM, ECM shields, armour etc.

There is simply no need for the game to give you the class of the ship?

You don't NEED to know what class it is, it doesn't actually give you any new information. I have successfully classified more than 2/3 of my current NPRs ships just by evaluating what they do and their capabilities before destroying or being shot at by them.

Once a ship has shot at you then you should be able to classify it with almost a 100% accuracy?

So basically what you are asking for is the game to spoon feed you information you couldn't be bothered to look up / determine yourself OR you want more information on enemy ships without any extra effort, which just makes the game even easier to counter AI designs, which the game sorely does NOT need.