Author Topic: Suggestions Thread for v2.4.0  (Read 251901 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline nuclearslurpee

  • Admiral of the Fleet
  • ***********
  • Posts: 3286
  • Thanked: 2644 times
  • Radioactive frozen beverage.
Re: Suggestions Thread for v2.4.0
« Reply #885 on: March 21, 2025, 09:52:11 AM »
I will offer a contrary opinion and say I don't see any interesting gameplay from adding power plants that offsets the added micro. I see most people are talking about different types of power but there is not much being said about what interesting gameplay decisions they will add.

One person mentioned adding decision-making for strategic bombardment. That could be interesting in principle, but (1) we don't currently have such a mechanic so we would need to add one and of course it should allow general targeting of specific installations and not be unique to power plants, and (2) I'm not sure it adds much in practice since usually the goal is to take the planet and get the surviving installations as loot, I'm not sure strategic bombardment is done in Aurora except for exterminatus reasons.

The one idea I can see being interesting is not having multiple types, but rather having only the nuclear type and having it consume sorium as fuel. This could add a new mineral use for sorium and make it interesting to mine more than incidentally (since most fuel in practice comes from gas giants). However, I'm not sure this is worth the additional micro.
 
The following users thanked this post: kks, JacenHan, BAGrimm, lumporr, Ragnarsson, Ghostly

Offline Kaiser

  • Commander
  • *********
  • K
  • Posts: 396
  • Thanked: 72 times
Re: Suggestions Thread for v2.4.0
« Reply #886 on: March 21, 2025, 10:10:01 AM »
I will offer a contrary opinion and say I don't see any interesting gameplay from adding power plants that offsets the added micro. I see most people are talking about different types of power but there is not much being said about what interesting gameplay decisions they will add.

One person mentioned adding decision-making for strategic bombardment. That could be interesting in principle, but (1) we don't currently have such a mechanic so we would need to add one and of course it should allow general targeting of specific installations and not be unique to power plants, and (2) I'm not sure it adds much in practice since usually the goal is to take the planet and get the surviving installations as loot, I'm not sure strategic bombardment is done in Aurora except for exterminatus reasons.

The one idea I can see being interesting is not having multiple types, but rather having only the nuclear type and having it consume sorium as fuel. This could add a new mineral use for sorium and make it interesting to mine more than incidentally (since most fuel in practice comes from gas giants). However, I'm not sure this is worth the additional micro.

As previously said, adding power plant alone it will be just another building, interesting but just another building.
If instead, the power plants are meant to power all the other buildings AND the infrastructure targeting is a thing, than it became a game play change.

Imagine that alien shipyard, mines, ground facilities, missile factories are all powered by power plants, then it can became relevant strategic bombardment from the player to halt enemy production.

The same of course must be for the human player with the AI choosing to bombard your facilities and put you in real difficulty, your home world is currently quite safe as long as you have enough STOs as the enemy cannot bombard you from the distance and play an attrition war.

As said, I imagine all this requires an extensive modifications, but it is worth to think about.
 

Offline Ghostly

  • Warrant Officer, Class 1
  • *****
  • G
  • Posts: 99
  • Thanked: 68 times
Re: Suggestions Thread for v2.4.0
« Reply #887 on: March 21, 2025, 10:36:36 AM »
Indeed, power plants will only be beneficial as part of a vast rework of the entire population management aspect of the game, that's something that cannot be just tacked on.

Adding a power system will simply give the AI another strategic-level mechanic that it could potentially fumble and neuter itself, all while it already can do so (and has done so in my run) in several other ways, such as being unable to handle crippling mineral shortages, getting their fleets stuck, failing to identify dangerous systems, not producing ships or installations or just terraforming their homeworld into extinction (might be fixed in 2.6.0?).

I would much rather see the AI gain a better grasp of existing logistical challenges before complicating things even further, lest the rift between the player and NPR capabilities grow even larger.
 

Offline Steve Walmsley (OP)

  • Aurora Designer
  • Star Marshal
  • S
  • Posts: 12185
  • Thanked: 23748 times
  • 2025 Supporter 2025 Supporter : Support the forums in 2025
    Gold Supporter Gold Supporter :
    Above & Beyond Supporter Above & Beyond Supporter :
Re: Suggestions Thread for v2.4.0
« Reply #888 on: March 21, 2025, 11:09:10 AM »
I will offer a contrary opinion and say I don't see any interesting gameplay from adding power plants that offsets the added micro. I see most people are talking about different types of power but there is not much being said about what interesting gameplay decisions they will add.

One person mentioned adding decision-making for strategic bombardment. That could be interesting in principle, but (1) we don't currently have such a mechanic so we would need to add one and of course it should allow general targeting of specific installations and not be unique to power plants, and (2) I'm not sure it adds much in practice since usually the goal is to take the planet and get the surviving installations as loot, I'm not sure strategic bombardment is done in Aurora except for exterminatus reasons.

The one idea I can see being interesting is not having multiple types, but rather having only the nuclear type and having it consume sorium as fuel. This could add a new mineral use for sorium and make it interesting to mine more than incidentally (since most fuel in practice comes from gas giants). However, I'm not sure this is worth the additional micro.

Yes, the above is the exact reason why power is not already in the game. It will take a lot of effort to add, especially in relation to the AI, and I am not yet convinced it would add a commensurate amount of interesting decisions - especially in comparison to other additions with a similar amount of work.

Also on my 'significant work' list are things like Eldar Craftworlds, a variety of Star Trek 'monsters' from SFB, gas giant dwelling aliens, random events (solar flares, major earthquakes and volcanic eruptions, disruption of planetary orbits, etc.), disease and biological warfare, reworking orbit-to-ground warfare, etc.
 
The following users thanked this post: kks, King-Salomon, JustAnotherDude, BAGrimm, EclipsedStar

Offline nuclearslurpee

  • Admiral of the Fleet
  • ***********
  • Posts: 3286
  • Thanked: 2644 times
  • Radioactive frozen beverage.
Re: Suggestions Thread for v2.4.0
« Reply #889 on: March 21, 2025, 03:39:21 PM »
As previously said, adding power plant alone it will be just another building, interesting but just another building.
If instead, the power plants are meant to power all the other buildings AND the infrastructure targeting is a thing, than it became a game play change.

Imagine that alien shipyard, mines, ground facilities, missile factories are all powered by power plants, then it can became relevant strategic bombardment from the player to halt enemy production.

The same of course must be for the human player with the AI choosing to bombard your facilities and put you in real difficulty, your home world is currently quite safe as long as you have enough STOs as the enemy cannot bombard you from the distance and play an attrition war.

As said, I imagine all this requires an extensive modifications, but it is worth to think about.

I'm steadfastly unpersuaded that "strategic bombardment" is a good enough reason to add power plants. On one hand, I don't think the reality of planetary invasion gameplay in Aurora fits the idea of strategic bombardment of power supplies, or for that matter targeted strategic bombardment in general. On the other hand, I don't see the value added in forcing players to deal with the micromanagement of power plants when the only benefit the player gets for their hard work is offering the opponent a target for strategic bombardment (never mind that the NPR rarely is competent enough to earn such an opportunity, nor that the NPRs which earn such opportunities tend to be aggressive enough to simply take the planet outright or commence with exterminatus post-haste).

Meanwhile, the only gameplay impacts I'm seeing are: resource sinks (= slower gameplay) and additional colony micromanagement (yet another installation type must be produced and shipped to frontier worlds with quantities continually monitored). I don't see any avenues to rewarding the player for doing all this extra work. Adding a positive bonus multiplier to, say, production would require rebalancing the entire game economy around that bonus (with the probable result that the "baseline" without power plants is reduced, which is unpalatable), whereas the proposed negative modifier for insufficient power brings us back to slowing down the game (and we already have options to do so, whereas forcing a slowdown is not desirable). I would make an analogy to the oft-repeated request for more complicated sensor mechanics that amount to doing more work for the same information, which Steve has repeatedly shot down for the same reasons.

Furthermore, there's no interesting economic decisions being made by the player - power is simply something you must do to get full production. At best you have different types of power plants such as hydro plants in mountainous terrain, but that simply introduces an obvious optimum rather than a real decision to make. By contrast, I would point out that the current installation mechanics present a set of interesting decisions as part of the core gameplay loop, both decisions of kind (e.g., which kind of factory do I need? Which kind of mine? Which kind of shipyard?) and decisions of opportunity cost (e.g., dedicating more production to factories means less production is available for mines or shipyards). It is a simple yet effective set of mechanics leading to every player having their own tendencies and every new campaign having a different 'build order'.

In my view, if power plants will be added to the game it must be because they add interesting decisions to the core gameplay loop, not because they will make a nice, juicy target. I believe Steve's posts reflect a similar sentiment.
 
The following users thanked this post: welchbloke, Andrew, kks, LuuBluum, lumporr, Louella, Ragnarsson

Offline Andrew

  • Registered
  • Commodore
  • **********
  • Posts: 791
  • Thanked: 163 times
Re: Suggestions Thread for v2.4.0
« Reply #890 on: March 21, 2025, 05:01:19 PM »


Imagine that alien shipyard, mines, ground facilities, missile factories are all powered by power plants, then it can became relevant strategic bombardment from the player to halt enemy production.

If you get control of space around a major colony long enough for some sort of fancy long range bombardment, you can either neutralise the STO's and invade or bombard the planet enough to wreck it totally.
If you just want to cripple their economy you can blow up the shipyard.  I really cannot see any good reason or game play benefit from adding another fiddly little detail to increase micromanagment for the player and casue the AI to cripple itself
 
The following users thanked this post: welchbloke

Offline boolybooly

  • Gold Supporter
  • Lieutenant
  • *****
  • Posts: 181
  • Thanked: 93 times
  • 2025 Supporter 2025 Supporter : Support the forums in 2025
    Gold Supporter Gold Supporter :
Re: Suggestions Thread for v2.4.0
« Reply #891 on: March 21, 2025, 06:16:27 PM »
Monsters sound like fun!
 
The following users thanked this post: BAGrimm

Offline Louella

  • Sub-Lieutenant
  • ******
  • L
  • Posts: 115
  • Thanked: 174 times
Re: Suggestions Thread for v2.4.0
« Reply #892 on: March 22, 2025, 09:08:08 AM »
Furthermore, there's no interesting economic decisions being made by the player - power is simply something you must do to get full production. At best you have different types of power plants such as hydro plants in mountainous terrain, but that simply introduces an obvious optimum rather than a real decision to make. By contrast, I would point out that the current installation mechanics present a set of interesting decisions as part of the core gameplay loop, both decisions of kind (e.g., which kind of factory do I need? Which kind of mine? Which kind of shipyard?) and decisions of opportunity cost (e.g., dedicating more production to factories means less production is available for mines or shipyards). It is a simple yet effective set of mechanics leading to every player having their own tendencies and every new campaign having a different 'build order'.

In my view, if power plants will be added to the game it must be because they add interesting decisions to the core gameplay loop, not because they will make a nice, juicy target. I believe Steve's posts reflect a similar sentiment.

For interesting decisions, I think it'd be best to step back and look at planets as a whole.

Consider the planetary terrain. Does the player really care if the terrain is tundra, grassland, prairie, steppe, subarctic, cold steppe ? Not really. They have the same fortification and to-hit bonuses. There is no reason for the player to be concerned, as long as the planet is CC0.

Steve has made some moves towards interesting decisions on how to develop planets, with the upcoming mechanism where planets with terrain types affect the costs of training ground forces with terrain abilities - i.e. ground forces with "desert warfare" capability are cheaper to train on desert planets, than on grassland planets.

So lets look at the planetary terrain some more.

What would be the economic difference between a planet that is grassland, compared to a planet that is tundra ? My opinion would be that a grassland planet would have a much higher agricultural value, which would translate into fewer population required in the agricultural sector, and more people available as workforce for industry. Theory behind that is being able to farm on a greater scale, and less effort needed to maintain the farmland in a productive state - tundra requiring subsurface heating to allow ploughing etc.

Now that would mean that terraforming to tundragrassland would be optimal for industry (for more workers). But would it ? Tundra planets are cooler, which means it's easier for thermal power plants such as coal/gas/oil/nuclear to cool their exhaust steam, making them more efficient. Which would translate into fewer thermal powerplants needed to power heavy industry.

Which means that despite a lower industrial workforce proportion on a tundra planet, the tundra planet might be a better choice for developing heavy industry on. Or developing particular heavy industries on. A grassland planet might be a better choice for light industry, and might have more production of trade goods (but not everyone plays with trade goods & civilian shipping on).

Another factor to consider for economic output would be the cost of planetary transportation. Mountainous, jungle, or rift valley planets might have higher transportation costs because of the difficulty in building railways. Planets with more hydrosphere might have lower transportation costs because more can be moved by (sea) ships, than by rails. Planets with dense atmospheres might have different transportation costs due to being able to build effective lighter-than-air freight airships.

Geological activity would also have an effect on a planets economy - it would favour geothermal power, and might make mining more productive by exposing new seams, but earthquakes and the like would make it more expensive to operate other industries.

So what does this all mean ?

It means that the player then has decisions to make about how to develop the planets they have available, decisions on what kind of biosphere they want to terraform a planet to, what industries they want to develop, and so on.

On the question of any additional infrastructure, I think it is useful to consider the effects that planetary governors have - appointing a different governor magically makes a planet 50% better at shipbuilding ? without any additional industrial construction necessary ? With that precedent, I don't know that implementing industrial infrastructure would be necessary. The effects of power plant efficiency and of planetary logistics could be modelled with just modifiers to outputs.

On the other hand, industrial infrastructure as something that can be built, is needed, and can be transported by civilian shipping lines, just like population infrastructure is, makes protection of shipping lines from raiders more of a priority. This gives the player more things to do, and disruption of enemy merchant shipping is then a higher priority, and allows a bit more in economic warfare.


So... with a bit more effects on population productivity (and morale ?) from terrain types, and effects on industrial productivities, there are then more decisions to be made on how to develop the planets, what industries to put on them, and how to develop them militarily.

Biosphere type - affects agricultural productivity i.e. the proportion of population required for agriculture - more productive planets have higher morale due to wider food diversity, but may be more vulnerable to radiation damage.

Biosphere type - also affects industrial productivity - the efficiency of power plants and transportation - jungles are harder to build things on, tundra have more efficient powerplants

Distance from star - affects industrial productivity - cheap solar power close to the star, more dependence on thermal plants further from star. Some biospheres would be more productive in some industries further from the star, whereas the same biosphere closer to the star would have more productivity from other industries.

Geological activity - affects industrial productivity - more maintenance due to earthquakes reduces most industry output, higher mining output due to minerals being more exposed

Industry types would have different productivities - Shipbuilding would be energy intensive, but not concerned with planetary transportation (Abstract - a shipyard would have plenty of surface-to-orbit transport facilities inherent in its nature, to move workforce and materials). Other manufacturing would have different needs - ordnance and fighter factories would probably require more transport due to their complex manufacturing processes (Abstract - a fighter factory is a network of smaller systems factories, engines, sensors, weapons etc, making transportation more of a concern), compared to construction factories (Abstract - construction factories are larger integrated facilities).

All these things could be represented by modifiers to output, rather than requiring infrastructure to be built.

And it might not be possible to optimise for everything simultaneously, thereby making decisions on how to develop planets more interesting.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2025, 06:33:10 PM by Louella »
 
The following users thanked this post: paolot, Garfunkel, Mayne, nuclearslurpee, EclipsedStar

Offline paolot

  • Lt. Commander
  • ********
  • p
  • Posts: 255
  • Thanked: 55 times
Re: Suggestions Thread for v2.4.0
« Reply #893 on: March 22, 2025, 01:47:03 PM »
Thanks Louella!
Really good post.
If I think to my current game, with shortage of Uridium and Corundium all around the Galaxy, your suggestions would make growth and expansion even more difficult... and thrilling and fascinating.  :)
« Last Edit: March 22, 2025, 01:59:27 PM by paolot »
 
The following users thanked this post: Louella, David_H_Roarings

Offline paolot

  • Lt. Commander
  • ********
  • p
  • Posts: 255
  • Thanked: 55 times
Re: Suggestions Thread for v2.4.0
« Reply #894 on: March 22, 2025, 02:43:22 PM »
Speaking of new infrastructures.
In the game, there isn't a Planetary Government building (apart the Sector Command building).
We assign Governors and Administrators, but they haven't a site from where they rule a colony.
It could benefit construction, shipbuilding, mining, wealth creation and civilian taxes, security, education, somehow research, and somehow diplomacy. Just few percentage. And generate some workplaces for the people.
I think it should be present from the beginning in the home planet (this needs a Government!). But we could improve and enlarge it. And we need a new one in each colony.
 

Offline Garfunkel

  • Registered
  • Admiral of the Fleet
  • ***********
  • Posts: 2989
  • Thanked: 1229 times
Re: Suggestions Thread for v2.4.0
« Reply #895 on: March 22, 2025, 10:47:55 PM »
I would prefer to have a System Command building instead. Or both if possible. Currently we have colony administrators and sector administrators but the middle level is missing. It would be both nice for RP and to have another use for administrators, many of whom remain unemployed.

So basically we could have
1. Planetary governor (Planetary Command building)
2. System governor (System Command building)
3. Sector governor (Sector Command building)

This would also allow for 2 new techs, so the Sector Command tech could have 3 levels, the first being 1000 RP for Planetary, second 5000 RP for System and third for 10,000 RP for Sector.
 
The following users thanked this post: paolot, papent, Hari, David_H_Roarings

Offline TMaekler

  • Vice Admiral
  • **********
  • Posts: 1116
  • Thanked: 305 times
Re: Suggestions Thread for v2.4.0
« Reply #896 on: March 23, 2025, 03:00:10 AM »
Could we get a distance circle marker for waypoints? Something that draws a circle at x mkm distance from a waypoint marker? Would be a nice helper tool to remind yourself keeping certain ships within certain distances to objects.
 
The following users thanked this post: kks, L0ckAndL0ad, lumporr, David_H_Roarings, Ghostly

Offline Ghostly

  • Warrant Officer, Class 1
  • *****
  • G
  • Posts: 99
  • Thanked: 68 times
Re: Suggestions Thread for v2.4.0
« Reply #897 on: March 23, 2025, 02:17:17 PM »
Could we get a distance circle marker for waypoints? Something that draws a circle at x mkm distance from a waypoint marker? Would be a nice helper tool to remind yourself keeping certain ships within certain distances to objects.

Can't support this enough, combat feels incomplete without being able to slather the map in circles and lines. Circles would also make placing buoy/mine fields much easier and semi-permanent lines would make intercepting lost contacts whose routes are known much more straightforward, currently one can use the distance measurement tool to check how close does an arbitrarily placed waypoint lie to a known route, but it requires several iterations to get right.

Implementation suggestions: both line and circle can be checkboxes on the Waypoint tab, to support creation of temporary/named/etc circles/lines, non-mutually exclusive, as having both checked would make a circle with a line as its radius. Can be activated by holding down shift, same way the distance measurement tool can be combined with waypoint creation right now. Can (and probably should) include the line's length/bearing and the circle's radius in its name and also allow snapping waypoints to any point on the shape.

While both shapes could also be valid targets for ship orders, with a ship ordered to such a target heading for its nearest point, I don't think that'd be too much of a dealbreaker and this could be omitted as long as waypoint snapping is available.

Attached: beautiful inspiration :)
 
The following users thanked this post: kks, lumporr

Offline Steve Zax

  • Warrant Officer, Class 2
  • ****
  • S
  • Posts: 62
  • Thanked: 15 times
Re: Suggestions Thread for v2.4.0
« Reply #898 on: March 24, 2025, 12:26:57 AM »
When do we get intel from interrogating prisoners from lifepods in 2.5?
When we pick up the pods, or when we land the prisoners on a colony?

Is it different in 2.5.1?

Is it GOING to be different in 2.6?
 

Offline Ghostly

  • Warrant Officer, Class 1
  • *****
  • G
  • Posts: 99
  • Thanked: 68 times
Re: Suggestions Thread for v2.4.0
« Reply #899 on: March 24, 2025, 12:35:04 AM »
When do we get intel from interrogating prisoners from lifepods in 2.5?
When we pick up the pods, or when we land the prisoners on a colony?

Is it different in 2.5.1?

Is it GOING to be different in 2.6?

Assuming you meant to post in the questions thread. You get intel points upon picking up the pods in 2.5/2.5.1, and will get them after interrogating prisoners at a suitable colony in 2.6.0. https://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php?topic=13463.msg171766#msg171766