v2.6.0 Changes Discussion Thread

[Kaiser]

Agree with Ragnarsson with the pause, couple of seconds more, randomly generated toward some system generation is nothing, definitely better that knowing for sure that I have a NPR ahead which would eliminate all the flavour of exploration and mystery.

[Garfunkel]

I am strongly against implementing mandatory pauses, even if they are random. We already have a God like awareness of the game, adding something like that would just be annoying. I know I never time the system generation so I wouldn't know either way.

[Ghostly]

I've added multi-system NPRs post-start. This does lead to a slight problem, which is a likely pause for a few seconds while a multi-system NPR is generated. That pause between transit and arrival can effectively warn a player than an NPR has been created. Therefore I was wondering whether to add random pauses to some system generations, to make it less obvious when something is actually happening. Or would this just be annoying?

Once the NPR home system is generated but before the rest of calculations occur, would it be possble to generate an additional buffer system between the system from which the exploration took place and the system(s) that will become the rim of NPR territory, then reveal that system to the player while "caching" the NPR home system? The delay would be barely noticeable then, and all the other calculations concerning NPR territory, colony and fleet generation can then occur afterwards during the next construction cycle, when some delay is to be expected (at least when DB gets large enough), and a jump point linking the buffer system to the NPR's frontier will be created.

For further subversion of expectations it could also be delayed to happen randomly during one of the next several construction cycles, or maybe during one of the next several JP explorations which might happen anywhere else in the galaxy. If the buffer system happens to get a full gravitational survey by then, the jump point to NPR territory can be generated as dormant, further adding to the element of surprise.

Wouldn't it be horrifying if Swarm could be generated in a similar way?

[Gniwu]

Ooof, no mandatory pauses please! My personal Aurora experience is usually a very curated one, where I often generate and regenerate new systems until I have something that looks narratively interesting - I do care more about that than about being properly surprised. If there turns out to be widespread desire for such a feature, maybe add it via a checkbox at world creation so that everyone can be happy?

[skoormit]

I've added multi-system NPRs post-start. This does lead to a slight problem, which is a likely pause for a few seconds while a multi-system NPR is generated. That pause between transit and arrival can effectively warn a player than an NPR has been created. Therefore I was wondering whether to add random pauses to some system generations, to make it less obvious when something is actually happening. Or would this just be annoying?

You could pre-create them.
On game load, or whenever the associated game settings change, go ahead and create the next NPR and all of its systems.
Just don't give the systems any IDs yet, and don't link to any existing system (obviously).
When an NPR is "discovered" during system gen, use this "green room" NPR.

That's probably the easy bit. The hard bit is making another "green room" NPR after you use the first one, without causing noticeable slowdown.
You could probably just tack something on to the end of con cycle processing:
If the "green room" NPR does not have all systems generated, create the next system for it. (But just one system per con cycle.)
Most of the time, of course, the next NPR is fully created and ready to go, so this extra bit doesn't fire.
When it does fire, creating a single system per con cycle will probably not cause a noticeable increase in processing time.

[Steve Walmsley (OP)]

I've added multi-system NPRs post-start. This does lead to a slight problem, which is a likely pause for a few seconds while a multi-system NPR is generated. That pause between transit and arrival can effectively warn a player than an NPR has been created. Therefore I was wondering whether to add random pauses to some system generations, to make it less obvious when something is actually happening. Or would this just be annoying?

You could pre-create them.
On game load, or whenever the associated game settings change, go ahead and create the next NPR and all of its systems.
Just don't give the systems any IDs yet, and don't link to any existing system (obviously).
When an NPR is "discovered" during system gen, use this "green room" NPR.

That's probably the easy bit. The hard bit is making another "green room" NPR after you use the first one, without causing noticeable slowdown.
You could probably just tack something on to the end of con cycle processing:
If the "green room" NPR does not have all systems generated, create the next system for it. (But just one system per con cycle.)
Most of the time, of course, the next NPR is fully created and ready to go, so this extra bit doesn't fire.
When it does fire, creating a single system per con cycle will probably not cause a noticeable increase in processing time.

That won't work for Known Systems. What might be possible is to create a 'frozen NPR' that doesn't do anything until you enter one of its systems and then it wakes up. Either way, that would be a LOT of work to find every place where a race should do nothing instead of something.

I may just add the random pauses as an option then people can choose to use them or not.

[Froggiest1982]

I've added multi-system NPRs post-start. This does lead to a slight problem, which is a likely pause for a few seconds while a multi-system NPR is generated. That pause between transit and arrival can effectively warn a player than an NPR has been created. Therefore I was wondering whether to add random pauses to some system generations, to make it less obvious when something is actually happening. Or would this just be annoying?

You could pre-create them.
On game load, or whenever the associated game settings change, go ahead and create the next NPR and all of its systems.
Just don't give the systems any IDs yet, and don't link to any existing system (obviously).
When an NPR is "discovered" during system gen, use this "green room" NPR.

That's probably the easy bit. The hard bit is making another "green room" NPR after you use the first one, without causing noticeable slowdown.
You could probably just tack something on to the end of con cycle processing:
If the "green room" NPR does not have all systems generated, create the next system for it. (But just one system per con cycle.)
Most of the time, of course, the next NPR is fully created and ready to go, so this extra bit doesn't fire.
When it does fire, creating a single system per con cycle will probably not cause a noticeable increase in processing time.

That won't work for Known Systems. What might be possible is to create a 'frozen NPR' that doesn't do anything until you enter one of its systems and then it wakes up. Either way, that would be a LOT of work to find every place where a race should do nothing instead of something.

I may just add the random pauses as an option then people can choose to use them or not.

I already got those pauses as my pc is not that grat atm, and so far have not impacted my gameplay even if I knew "something was going on".

[skoormit]

...would be a LOT of work to find every place where a race should do nothing instead of something.

Just firing from the hip: can you create an NPR_Frozen object that has all the properties of an NPR (or perhaps just the subset of properties necessary so that the processing time incurred upon "discovery" is not noticeable), but that is not kept in the list of live NPRs that the game processes each increment?

(I don't think you even need to store such an object in the database--it does not need to persist through a game close->reopen cycle, since you will make a new one on game load.)

But I'm not pushing for this at all. Just throwing it at the wall in case it sticks. A game option to add camouflage pauses is a very good solution as well.

[Warer]

Okay I can not wait for 2.6 the NPR changes sound amazing!!

[Steve Walmsley (OP)]

...would be a LOT of work to find every place where a race should do nothing instead of something.

Just firing from the hip: can you create an NPR_Frozen object that has all the properties of an NPR (or perhaps just the subset of properties necessary so that the processing time incurred upon "discovery" is not noticeable), but that is not kept in the list of live NPRs that the game processes each increment?

(I don't think you even need to store such an object in the database--it does not need to persist through a game close->reopen cycle, since you will make a new one on game load.)

But I'm not pushing for this at all. Just throwing it at the wall in case it sticks. A game option to add camouflage pauses is a very good solution as well.

An NPR covers many different database tables, all of which expect a corresponding RaceID, so its not really an option.

[Barkhorn]

One idea I had for dealing with pausing tipping players off about NPR generation would be to change when it occurs.  What if the system discovery and mid-game NPR gen worked like this:

1. A ship enters a new system, System A, for the first time.
2. All jump points in System A are decided, though not shown to that race until they're found via surveys or someone else transiting them.  Play continues normally.
3. In the background during normal play, the systems on the far side of each of System A's jump points are genned, including any necessary NPR creation.

There's no need to worry about someone jumping across a jump point with nothing ready on the far side because there is plenty of time to gen everything while the player surveys System A.  You could easily spread the system and NPR genning out over many increments and no player will ever notice.

[nuclearslurpee]

One idea I had for dealing with pausing tipping players off about NPR generation would be to change when it occurs.  What if the system discovery and mid-game NPR gen worked like this:

1. A ship enters a new system, System A, for the first time.
2. All jump points in System A are decided, though not shown to that race until they're found via surveys or someone else transiting them.  Play continues normally.
3. In the background during normal play, the systems on the far side of each of System A's jump points are genned, including any necessary NPR creation.

There's no need to worry about someone jumping across a jump point with nothing ready on the far side because there is plenty of time to gen everything while the player surveys System A.  You could easily spread the system and NPR genning out over many increments and no player will ever notice.

Deferring to the construction increment might work, although you do have some weird edge cases where players are SM-exploring systems in batches that could cause problems.

That said, I'm in the camp that doesn't care much if there's a noticeable pause. I hardly notice these things anyways.

[Steve Walmsley (OP)]

I'm starting a test campaign with eight multi-system NPRs, using a conventional start with 25% research speed and limited research admin. I suspect I might get into difficulty at some point

[randakar]

If this was a java project I'd probably just make a way to save and load a pre generated NPR from Json, either as a file on disk or as a blob in a table. Using a copy of the db classes as a starting point for the json model, some mappers to translate back and forth..

[jahwillprovide]

I am so excited to see ramming is going to be a thing! Hopefully it gets implemented for players in a fun way, making Triremes in space would be amazing and maybe Steve would revive his Romans go to space AAR