Author Topic: Shouldn't bigger missiles be more effective than small ones?  (Read 2612 times)

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Offline Ultimoos (OP)

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This might be a strange question, because indeed bigger missiles are better in some aspects than many small ones, but is that really enough? I do not think so and I want to make a case to improve usefulness of big missiles.
Firs let's have a look ate exhibit "A":
Missile Size: 2.10 MSP  (5.250 Tons)     Warhead: 6    Radiation Damage: 6
Speed: 45,714 km/s     Fuel: 250     Flight Time: 60.1 seconds     Range: 2,747,429 km
Cost Per Missile: 3.90     Development Cost: 312
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 457.1%   3k km/s 152.4%   5k km/s 91.4%   10k km/s 45.7%

This is possibly the simplest ASM you can think off. Even without any improvements like terminal guidance, in large numbers this missile is extremally effective in both pre and post missile warfare changes.
Now, let's make it 8 times bigger:
Missile Size: 16.8 MSP  (42.00 Tons)     Warhead: 48    Radiation Damage: 48
Speed: 45,714 km/s     Fuel: 2,000     Flight Time: 3 minutes     Range: 7.78m km
Cost Per Missile: 31.20     Development Cost: 883
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 457.1%   3k km/s 152.4%   5k km/s 91.4%   10k km/s 45.7%

In many aspects this missile is as good as 8 previous missiles. There are some advantages like vastly increased range thanks to bigger engine and one gig explosion that has better chance at dealing hull damage with first strike to relatively thin armor. There is also a massive disadvantage, it's a single big target and easy pick for PDs.
This is the state of things before missile warfare change. Now, because it's a bigger missile you would add terminal guidance, ECCM and decoys to it. All those things take relatively small space compared to the size of the missile. Let's do that. We will add both modules and 7 decoys to match number of targets for PD to 8 small missiles:
Missile Size: 20.80 MSP  (52.000 Tons)     Warhead: 48    Radiation Damage: 48
Speed: 36,923 km/s     Fuel: 2,000     Flight Time: 3 minutes     Range: 6.28m km
Decoys: 7 ECM-3     ECCM-3     ATG: 40%     
Cost Per Missile: 38.75     Development Cost: 984
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 516.9%   3k km/s 172.3%   5k km/s 103.4%   10k km/s 51.7%

Some things immediately pop up. This missile became slower and larger than 8 smaller ones, but has better chance to not only hit the target but also to not be fooled by decoy missiles. The missile did not become "better" than 8 small ones. It does better in some fields but looses in others.
Now, let's improve the small missile with terminal guidance and ECCM as well:
Missile Size: 2.60 MSP  (6.500 Tons)     Warhead: 6    Radiation Damage: 6
Speed: 36,923 km/s     Fuel: 250     Flight Time: 60.1 seconds     Range: 2,219,078 km
ECCM-3     ATG: 40%     
Cost Per Missile: 4.45     Development Cost: 333
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 516.9%   3k km/s 172.3%   5k km/s 103.4%   10k km/s 51.7%

Now, this isn't right. Speed is the same, chance to hit is the same, combined size for 8 missiles is the same. number of targets for enemy PDs is the same. Every single aspect except for range and damage concentration is the same as big missile. There is one enormous downside to using big missiles instead of many small ones. And that is reload rate. Now let's see how many small missiles can be launched before another big missile is loaded to the tube. For better comparison reload tech is 1:
Maximum Missile Size 3.1     Rate of Fire 55 seconds
Size 3.1 HS  (155 tons)    HTK 1

Maximum Missile Size 21     Rate of Fire 140 seconds
Size 21 HS  (1,050 tons)    HTK 10

In time it takes one big missile to reload, two salvos of small missiles were launched and another one is halfway through reload.
Simply put DPS for smaller missiles is significantly larger than for big missiles.
And I repeat my question. Is this enough? Is longer range and damage concentration good enough reason to not just spam small missiles? I'm not convinced.
I propose a simple fix to make big missiles good. to make them dangerous. To make you think " I want to send a big package of LOVE to that Dark Orionis BattleCruiser" instead of a swarm of small pecks.
Make warhead damage further increase with assigned MSP. Not linear increase, but exponential one.
For all I know this might have been proposed in the past and was declined, but I had to do this.
 

Offline Andrew

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Re: Shouldn't bigger missiles be more effective than small ones?
« Reply #1 on: June 24, 2024, 12:59:59 PM »
Reload rate is largely useless excapt for defensive missiles.  The defenders point defense guns will engage each salvo at full effectiveness and in my experience I get to launch as many defensive missiles as I want regardless of the ROF for the attacker, in fact the best way to make offensive missiles effective is to use smaller slower loading launchers so you can fire big salvo's to overload point defense and shields
If you don't consider having your missiles shot down more quickly an advantage I suspect the gap you see is either not there or smaller. The changes to missiles are new and we will see if they have made large missiles better
 

Offline nuclearslurpee

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Re: Shouldn't bigger missiles be more effective than small ones?
« Reply #2 on: June 24, 2024, 01:23:12 PM »
Shouldn't bigger missiles be more effective than small ones?

No.

Quote
Now, let's make it 8 times bigger:
[...]
The missile did not become "better" than 8 small ones. It does better in some fields but looses in others.

Yes.

This is how Aurora is designed and how things are supposed to work. There is not supposed to be one clearly better option, rather there should be a range of options which can be viable in different situations. If bigger missiles are more effective than smaller ones, why build smaller ones (except for AMMs)? No, the game balance is better if bigger missiles are better in some cases, and smaller missiles are better in other cases.

Additionally, there are a couple of key misconceptions in your post:

Quote
Is longer range and damage concentration good enough reason to not just spam small missiles?

Longer range, in and of itself, is acutely valuable. In simple terms, if you can shoot at the enemy from beyond the range at which the enemy can shoot at you, then you have a great tactical advantage as you can fire without being fired upon. If your ships also have sufficient speed to maintain the range, you are effectively invincible unless your enemy deploys a longer-ranged missile in turn.

The downside, of course, is that a longer-ranged missile will generally be less effective as greater sacrifices must be made to achieve that range, more MSP must go to fuel and/or the missile must be slower to achieve better fuel efficiency (slower missile = harder to beat enemy point defenses).

Quote
There is one enormous downside to using big missiles instead of many small ones. And that is reload rate.

Reload rate only matters in some specific cases:
  • The main one is for AMMs, when you typically need the fastest reload rate you can get to put as many birds in the air as possible, particularly when defending against box launcher volleys.
  • A niche edge case, at least against NPRs, is that you want a faster fire rate if trying to eliminate a wave of fighters or FACs before they close to their own attack range.
Notice that both of these cases have something in common: you are not usually concerned with the enemy's point defense in these cases (missiles have none, while fighters only have PD if they are using railguns or Gauss cannons as weapons which is not the most common setup for fighters). This is because in all other cases, the most important maxim of missile warfare is this:

Missiles are only as good as their ability to defeat enemy point defense.

Everything else is secondary - this is not to say everything else is unimportant, but it is clearly secondary - missile range, accuracy, damage, etc., none of this matters if the enemy can reliably destroy all of your missiles before any one of them hits a target. Notably, this means that the biggest variable in favor of offensive missiles is not the reload rate (which is almost completely irrelevant, outside of the above cases) but rather how many missiles you can fire in a single volley of fire.

This is why most players will claim that box launchers are the most powerful form of missile launchers, because they are the most compact which means you can fit more into a given tonnage and thus launch more missiles at once. Note that box launchers have an incredibly high reload rate of, um, nope. The fact that the launcher type that cannot even reload in combat at all (aside from rare situations in defense of the same point at which they reload) is considered the most tactically effective form of missile weaponry tells us that reload rate does not matter at all compared to the ability to maximize the number of missiles on target at a single moment.

So why use any other kind of launchers? Because different options are better for different situations. There are specific cases where fast reload rates do matter, I listed two above, and in these cases you need to launch faster to get as many missiles into space as possible. Another option is using 30% size launchers, these are not as space-efficient as box launchers but offer far better strategic flexibility - without magazines, they can be reloaded in-situ by a collier, and with magazines you have a greater total throw weight before needing to reload. If you can achieve local tactical supremacy, so that even with only one-quarter as many missiles in a volley you still overmatch the enemy's PD, then that strategic flexibility becomes desirable.

With this in mind, let's return to the missile designs in the OP:

Comparing eight of these:
Quote
Missile Size: 2.60 MSP  (6.500 Tons)     Warhead: 6    Radiation Damage: 6
Speed: 36,923 km/s     Fuel: 250     Flight Time: 60.1 seconds     Range: 2,219,078 km
ECCM-3     ATG: 40%     
Cost Per Missile: 4.45     Development Cost: 333
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 516.9%   3k km/s 172.3%   5k km/s 103.4%   10k km/s 51.7%

to one of these:
Quote
Missile Size: 20.80 MSP  (52.000 Tons)     Warhead: 48    Radiation Damage: 48
Speed: 36,923 km/s     Fuel: 2,000     Flight Time: 3 minutes     Range: 6.28m km
Decoys: 7 ECM-3     ECCM-3     ATG: 40%     
Cost Per Missile: 38.75     Development Cost: 984
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 516.9%   3k km/s 172.3%   5k km/s 103.4%   10k km/s 51.7%

The larger missile has, as you say, effectively the same ability to beat enemy point defense as the eight smaller ones (as long as we gloss over the intricacies of EW mechanics), and delivers the same damage, etc., but has longer range. So, the larger missile would seem to be... better? Indeed, it is better in a case where reload rate does not matter, e.g., as an anti-ship missile used against enemy large warships. If reload rate matters, then the small missile may be preferable, e.g., as an anti-fighter missile.

So, we have two different missile designs which have similar effectiveness but each shines in a different situation. Cool, that's exactly what we wanted!
Quote from: Me, five minutes ago
This is how Aurora is designed and how things are supposed to work. There is not supposed to be one clearly better option, rather there should be a range of options which can be viable in different situations.
Looks like the game design works as intended.

----

As an addendum, I do want to note that bigger missiles can be designed with a better approach than in the OP, because of the fact that larger engines are more fuel-efficient we have some flexibility in designing them. Since you did not provide the tech levels and MSP allocations for the missiles in the OP, I will not attempt to reproduce them, but I will follow a similar approach and look at different sizes.

I will use these tech levels:
Code: [Select]
Warhead Strength 5 per MSP
Ion Drive Technology
Fuel Consumption 0.6
Maximum EP Modifier x2.5
ECM 2, ECCM2, ATG 0.32 - not relevant but listed for completeness

Let's consider a size-4 missile design as our reference:
Code: [Select]
MSP: Warhead 0.8, Engine 2.24, Fuel 0.46, ATG 0.25, ECCM 0.25
EP Modifier x4.10

Damage: 4
Speed: 28,750 km/s
Range: 29.99 m km
%CTH vs 5000 km/s: 75.9%
ECCM-2
(I am using a homebrew missile calculator instead of setting this up in the game, so I apologize for any inaccuracies.)

Now let's consider a size-8 missile, twice as large, with a similar design specification except we will use a decoy to maintain the same effective number of targets (again, neglecting EW mechanics details):
Code: [Select]
MSP: Warhead 1.6, Engine 4.48, Fuel 0.92, ATG 0.25, ECCM: 0.25, Decoy 0.5
EP Modifier x4.10

Damage: 8
Speed: 28,750 km/s
Range: 42.30 m km
%CTH vs 5000 km/s: 75.9%
Decoys: 1 x ECM-2
ECCM-2
As we already saw, this gives us a missile that has more or less the same performance profile as 2x size-4 missiles, but with 40% greater range in exchange for a lower rate of fire. However, we have options here to change our design approach.

For example, what if we only want 30 m km range? Maybe our sensor technology isn't good enough to use the full 42 m km of the above design, for example:
Code: [Select]
MSP: Warhead 1.6, Engine 4.48, Fuel 0.92, ATG 0.25, ECCM: 0.25, Decoy 0.5
EP Modifier x4.45

Damage: 8
Speed: 31,150 km/s
Range: 29.99 m km
%CTH vs 5000 km/s: 82.24%
Decoys: 1 x ECM-2
ECCM-2
Now we have a missile which has the same range as the size-4 missile, but it is faster - therefore, it has a better chance to hit the target, and a better ability to evade enemy PD.

There are other possibilities: we could use a larger warhead, yielding missiles with similar speed and range but bigger hitting power (my calculator gives me the same speed and 27.1 m km range with WH 10, for instance; +25% hitting power for -10% range is a fair tradeoff). We could add an additional decoy, trading a bit of speed or range in exchange for better PD evasion (with 2 decoys, the first size-8 missile design drops to 27,325 km/s, losing about 3.8% accuracy in exchange for 33% better PD evasion; this is a very good trade!). The efficiency of larger missiles gives us a lot of options to be better at one thing or another, whereas smaller missiles are more limited in what can be achieved in their designs.

----

As a last note, I want to mention that the mechanics of electronic warfare (EW) are important here. I have alluded to this a couple of times (by neglecting it), but it complicates the analysis considerably since the relative differences in ECM/ECCM tech levels between opposing forces can tilt the balance one way or the other, sometimes quite strongly. If the enemy ECCM is better than your missiles' ECM, then decoys will be less effective and smaller missiles will be more attractive as a way to correct that imbalance. On the other hand, if your ECM tech matches or exceeds that of the enemy, then larger missiles become more attractive, since mounting decoys (0.5 HS each) is often a more efficient use of MSP than firing more missiles.

Also left out of this discussion is the topic of multiple-stage missiles including MIRV-like designs, which can be an interesting approach to achieve a mix of both range and effective striking power. MIRVs in particular can evade enemy PD by firing a larger number of small missiles with short range from a slow, long-range first stage - you lose some overall efficiency in terms of raw tonnage to accomplish this, in exchange for an extremely long engagement range that probably precludes any kind of enemy return fire (unless they also use MIRV-style missiles, which NPRs do not as far as I know).

These last points underline my main point above: in Aurora, there is not meant to be any kind of weapon which is better than all others. Rather, the game is meant to provide a range of options, each of which may be good in different situations. Missile design in versions 2.2+ largely accomplishes this design goal as long as the player is smart about how they design their missiles, and rewarding careful thought and intelligent decision-making is what Aurora is really all about. Therefore, there is not really any need to buff larger missiles, rather what is needed is creativity and wisdom on the part of the player to make the best use of these weapons.

Offline Jorgen_CAB

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Re: Shouldn't bigger missiles be more effective than small ones?
« Reply #3 on: June 24, 2024, 01:58:44 PM »
I would also not say that a missile with strength 48 is even remotely equal in strength with eight strength 6 missiles. The strength 48 missiles will be straight up much better against any ship with no shields left. It have a much greater chance to cause chock damage and will dig way deeper into enemy armour thus much greater chance to cause internal damage.

Given the new rules with EW and decoys then big missiles are much better as basic ASM... although smaller missiles are still useful against smaller ships and crafts with little to know armour, shields and PD.

One of the main drawback of larger missiles is that they can be detected and locked on to fire-controls earlier than size 6 and below missiles.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2024, 02:06:41 PM by Jorgen_CAB »
 
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Offline Garfunkel

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Re: Shouldn't bigger missiles be more effective than small ones?
« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2024, 08:05:03 AM »
WORDS
Take a look at this guy. What a nerd! I bet he even has a PhD or something! Go away with your math, nerd, only real Alpha-Jock-Chad-Muscleheads play this game while slamming down brewskis.

I'm definitely not joking...
 

Offline nuclearslurpee

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Re: Shouldn't bigger missiles be more effective than small ones?
« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2024, 10:23:56 AM »
WORDS
Take a look at this guy. What a nerd! I bet he even has a PhD or something! Go away with your math, nerd, only real Alpha-Jock-Chad-Muscleheads play this game while slamming down brewskis.

I'm definitely not joking...

 

Offline Ultimoos (OP)

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Re: Shouldn't bigger missiles be more effective than small ones?
« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2024, 02:03:01 PM »
...

Sorry I won't be answering to specific quotes. I get lost in the code.

I did not provide techs because I do not think they are relevant. There is no actual enemy described. What I should have done is provide MSP allocation. It was 1 MSP to warhead, 0.1 MSP to fuel, 1 MSP to engine 600% plus all addons. Big missile is 8x everything plus addons.
About EW. It favors many missiles over few big ones. A missile has weight of 5 and decoy starts with a weight of 5, but can be reduced by enemy EW. We can only counter that reduction but never improve strength of decoys over 5. 8 small missiles are always threated like 8 equal targets. ECCM reduces weight of decoys and any point of differences makes a big missile fall short.
I should have mentioned shock damage. I know it exists but I have no idea how effective it is.
I intentionally allocated very little fuel to all presented designs. Not because I wanted to present my case better, but because I always attach a slower booster to missiles for range.
You provided an example of a missile with very big engine and more fuel compared to my example:
Quote
MSP: Warhead 0.8, Engine 2.24, Fuel 0.46, ATG 0.25, ECCM 0.25
EP Modifier x4.10

Damage: 4
Speed: 28,750 km/s
Range: 29.99 m km
%CTH vs 5000 km/s: 75.9%
ECCM-2

I will recreate it with my tech so we can better compare them:
Code: [Select]
Missile Size: 4.00 MSP  (10.000 Tons)     Warhead: 4.8    Radiation Damage: 4.8
Speed: 36,750 km/s     Fuel: 1,150     Flight Time: 24 minutes     Range: 52.19m km
ECCM-3     ATG: 40%     
Cost Per Missile: 5.425     Development Cost: 368
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 514.5%   3k km/s 171.5%   5k km/s 102.9%   10k km/s 51.5%

Range is enormous, but it sacrifices speed and damage. It retains a good dodge chance over it's entire flight duration, but loses on both chance to hit the target and chance to get past PD. But when can you expect enemy AMM's to intercept? Right after launch at 50km? Or at the last few km? If it's the latter everything that was sacrificed to get that range was wasted.
Than you showed a bigger design where we can do some little trades from range to get a bit more performance in both damage and speed. And it's all true, but isn't it true only because the missile was suboptimal to begin with?
OK, I see this now. I could not see much benefit from bigger size because my design is extremally performance based and the area that big missile benefits from would be eaten by a first stage booster. While your universal approach missile gets a lot of room with size to improve some areas and keeps relatively good dodge chance at long distance. It's good to be used on unknown enemy, like a universal missile should be. While my design relies on slow first stage booster for range which makes it vulnerable to AMM's that fly beyond separation range. Proper use of it requires previous knowledge on enemy or precise assumption which makes my design specialized. I assumed it's universally optimized.
 

Offline nuclearslurpee

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Re: Shouldn't bigger missiles be more effective than small ones?
« Reply #7 on: June 25, 2024, 03:40:39 PM »
I intentionally allocated very little fuel to all presented designs. Not because I wanted to present my case better, but because I always attach a slower booster to missiles for range.

I want to clarify, this is not the "normal" way that people use missiles, so it would have been useful to specify this in the OP for clarity. As I wrote at the end of my post, multi-stage and MIRV missiles are a different ballgame. In that case, the terminal-stage missile(s) won't require a lot of range, and the fuel efficiency advantage of bigger engines on bigger missiles is much less important or useful. That's not to say that bigger missiles are useless in this case, since there can still be some advantages from leveraging other aspects of missile design (e.g., adding extra decoys, as in my last example).

In this case, we could return to the examples from before, but this time let's use a shorter range - say, 2.5 m km which is enough to separate outside of the AMM range for most opponents you're likely to fight. We'll assume that the missile is transported into range by a booster stage (which I'll touch on at the end of this post).

Reference size-4 missile (same tech levels as in previous comment):
Code: [Select]
MSP: Warhead 0.8, Engine 2.62, Fuel 0.08, ATG 0.25, ECCM 0.25
EP Modifier x5.00

Damage: 4
Speed: 40,900 km/s
Range: 2.49 m km
%CTH vs 5000 km/s: 107.98%
ECCM-2
The hit rate looks a bit excessive but the speed is still useful to get past enemy PD.

Compare to a size-8 missile with the same range and +1 decoy:
Code: [Select]
MSP: Warhead 1.6, Engine 5.29, Fuel 0.11, ATG 0.25, ECCM 0.25, Decoy 0.5
EP Modifier x5.00

Damage: 8
Speed: 41,300 km/s
Range: 2.50 m km
%CTH vs 5000 km/s: 109.03%
Decoys: 1 x ECM-2
ECCM-2
Assuming perfect ECM effectiveness, this is indeed a very minimal upgrade with only a 400 km/s speed improvement

However we do not need to limit ourselves to simply upscaling the size-4 design, and we could get more creative. For example, consider if we mount 2 decoys instead of 1:
Code: [Select]
MSP: Warhead 1.6, Engine 4.78, Fuel 0.12, ATG 0.25, ECCM 0.25, Decoy 1.0
EP Modifier x5.00

Damage: 8
Speed: 37,350 km/s
Range: 2.50 m km
%CTH vs 5000 km/s: 98.60%
Decoys: 2 x ECM-2
ECCM-2
Now our speed and hit rate is a little bit worse, but losing the %CTH is almost completely irrelevant since a value over 100% doesn't help us. In exchange, we gain an extra decoy for improved survivability against enemy PD, that would be +33% better performance against PD but since we lost some speed the benefit is a bit less, accounting for the loss of speed we have about a 30% improvement in survivability compared to the previous size-8 design. You can keep playing around with various combinations of components for both size-4 and size-8, but for my purposes this example is sufficient to point out that a larger missile offers more design space to work with. This holds true even if fuel efficiency is immaterial, due to the presence of fixed-size components like ATG, ECCM, etc. which means larger missiles have more granularity in design.

On the other hand it could also be interesting to look at smaller missiles, for example comparing size-2 missiles to our size-4 reference design. Simply scaling the size-4 design down gives us something like this:
Code: [Select]
MSP: Warhead 0.4, Engine 1.04, Fuel 0.06, ATG 0.25, ECCM 0.25
EP Modifier x5.00

Damage: 2
Speed: 32,400 km/s
Range: 2.49 m km
%CTH vs 5000 km/s: 85.54%
ECCM-2
It's not too bad. We lose about 15% accuracy in theory (less in practice due to commander Tactical bonuses), and we lose roughly 20% speed in exchange for being able to launch twice as many missiles, which can overwhelm enemy PD in cases where larger missiles are not getting the job done. How well this compares to the size-4 missile depends on a lot of situational factors, mostly relating to how good the enemy PD is and how much local superiority your fleet has.

For such a small missile, we might consider that the ATG and ECCM components could be removed, yielding a faster missile which can evade PD more efficiently at the cost of accuracy (or potential cost, in the case of ECCM). Conversely, we might ask if the lesson to be taken from this is that the size-4 design should have more penetration aids, i.e., decoys. However, I'm not looking to make dozens of missile designs for a simple follow-up comment, so I will leave it at this.

Anyways, the point I want to make here is this: for multi-stage and MIRV missiles, if you have enough knowledge about enemy point defense capabilities to make accurate assumptions, then it is probably possible to figure out what the "optimal" size for the terminal stage missile(s) is. I don't think that is a problem or a downside for larger missiles in general, rather it is specific to a particular kind of missile design and doctrine. For, e.g., single-stage missiles, there is a wider range of considerations as I laid out in my previous post (including missile range) and larger missiles can find many use cases where they are a strong or even superior option.

----

As an ancillary point, I want to note that multi-stage/MIRV missiles are not necessarily the strictly best kind of missiles. It may appear that way at first glance, since we can design a very high-performance terminal stage and deliver it into battle with a booster stage that doesn't have to care about performance at all. However, there are some considerations to keep in mind:
  • An extra booster stage makes the missile larger. This means you can launch fewer of them at once, so your high-performance terminal stages may individually perform better but there will be fewer of them. The net effect may or may not be better compared to what you can get from using single-stage missiles.
  • The added booster stage also means you have more cost per warhead delivered. Missiles already have a significant strategic downside in the cost of manufacturing them, so using a more expensive type of missile may give better tactical results but this comes with a severe strategic cost.
  • Against a prepared opponent (so, not an NPR, but perhaps in games with multiple player races), multi-stage missiles are vulnerable to having their booster stages intercepted by light screening forces deployed ahead of a fleet under fire. Beam fighters or AMM FACs are two examples of this. Every tactic has a counter, even if the NPRs cannot use it that does not mean the counter does not exist.
I wanted to address this as an addendum, in case the question came up as to why multi-stage missiles aren't the clear best choice that every player should use. They are simply one useful option out of many, and for other options such as single-stage missiles other considerations such as range/fuel efficiency do come into play - these considerations are not useless or sub-optimal, they are simply relevant for a different (but just as viable and useful) doctrine.
 
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Offline Jorgen_CAB

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Re: Shouldn't bigger missiles be more effective than small ones?
« Reply #8 on: June 25, 2024, 06:17:14 PM »
A multi-stage MIRV missile can actually be vulnerable to be used against the AI too to be honest. If the range you have on the missile are still within enemy range of their missiles the fact that those missiles are much slower can become a liability, especially if the opponent start running away from you. The no escape zone of a slower missile will be much narrower than if you have a faster missile.
In multi human faction games their slow speed can be quite detrimental as the opponent will know they are painted by an active and will deploy anti-missile defences around any decent task-force. If the enemy missiles are slow they will likely be intercepted before the submunition is released. It does not mean that MIRV missiles are useless or extended boosters are. I have had regular medium/short range missiles added with range boosters so they can be fired from hidden positions.

But currently due to the decoy system smaller missiles are really never going to be that effective anymore. There is a dynamic with decoys and multi warhead AMM that makes the math quite complicated though. The thing is that having a larger warhead rather than several smaller ones are better now as bigger missiles can be as survivable or even more survivable than the same number of smaller missiles in relation to size.

Range of missiles are very important in most circumstances in the same way that reconnaissance of the enemy forces are. In general whomever find and shoot at the opponent first will generally win. If you outrange the opponent you usually also can avoid the opponent if you can't overwhelm their missile defences. If your range is shorter you have to be able to be sure you can defend against their missiles as you will have to endure their attack before you can do your attack and this will always be a rather big gamble. The general tactic should always be to overwhelm the opponent. In theory you could just use offensive missiles and no defences if you can make sure you outrange and out scouts the enemy every time. It probably is not recommended to rely on such tactics as a general doctrine, it could come back and bite you hard if you misjudged the enemy in any way.

What I'm saying in general is that it is OK to over engineer the missile for some specific trait such as speed and/or range, even if it means you carry less missiles. The purpose of any engagement are never to meet it on an equal levels anyway, you always want to have massive advantage in firepower and if you don't you should wait and gather that advantage and withdraw. This is why box launched missiles and smaller ships such as fighters and FAC are so powerful as they can deliver huge offensive firepower over vast distances and risk very little in return in terms of industrial power and resources.
 

Offline Panopticon

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Re: Shouldn't bigger missiles be more effective than small ones?
« Reply #9 on: June 26, 2024, 02:46:13 PM »
It should also be noted that this is not a game where tactics exists in a void, except for quite literally combat taking place in space.

By which I mean, an optimally designed big long range missile might indeed be more effective than the same MSP of small missiles, but can you sustain the use of them? Your ships can't carry many and they are expensive. Steve's latest AARs show the cost of long range missiles being used as equal to some not insignificantly sized ships. In a game where you only have combat rarely you might be able to get away with it, but in a sustained war against an opponent with a lot of ships, you might find smaller cheaper missiles a longer term solution due to ease of manufacture and deployment.
 
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Offline Jorgen_CAB

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Re: Shouldn't bigger missiles be more effective than small ones?
« Reply #10 on: June 27, 2024, 11:15:34 AM »
It should also be noted that this is not a game where tactics exists in a void, except for quite literally combat taking place in space.

By which I mean, an optimally designed big long range missile might indeed be more effective than the same MSP of small missiles, but can you sustain the use of them? Your ships can't carry many and they are expensive. Steve's latest AARs show the cost of long range missiles being used as equal to some not insignificantly sized ships. In a game where you only have combat rarely you might be able to get away with it, but in a sustained war against an opponent with a lot of ships, you might find smaller cheaper missiles a longer term solution due to ease of manufacture and deployment.

But the idea is that using longer range more expensive missiles makes you avoid using allot of AMM to close with the enemy to fire shorter ranged missiles. But as you say, nothing exist in a void. If you use missiles you need to fire them in a way you can overwhelm the opponent or they will be too expensive. The problem is knowing what that is, something you only can learn by experience. It also means that using fighters so you can fire lower range missiles are quite potent way to find a middle ground. Most of the time a healthy mix are needed anyway.

It should also be pointed out that three size 3 missiles will almost always be more expensive than one size 9 missiles. As we have discussed the validity of the missiles in tactical combat we know that a size 9 will almost always be superior to three size 3 missiles for various reasons in most viable scenarios.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2024, 11:25:38 AM by Jorgen_CAB »
 
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