Author Topic: Empire of the Stars - Comments Thread  (Read 13303 times)

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Offline Steve Walmsley (OP)

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Empire of the Stars - Comments Thread
« on: June 25, 2024, 06:25:35 AM »
Please add any comments in this thread
 

Offline Kaiser

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Re: Empire of the Stars - Comments Thread
« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2024, 08:24:43 AM »
Thank you Steve, your fictions are always a formidable source of inspiration for ships design +  We probably do not know everything about Aurora as you do of course, for example laser warhead, I never tried them and I do not know how they do work.

I read the battle of Kochi in one breath, being honest I though you would not manage to succede to that terrible missile wawes.
 
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Offline Steve Walmsley (OP)

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Re: Empire of the Stars - Comments Thread
« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2024, 08:34:04 AM »
Thank you Steve, your fictions are always a formidable source of inspiration for ships design +  We probably do not know everything about Aurora as you do of course, for example laser warhead, I never tried them and I do not know how they do work.

I read the battle of Kochi in one breath, being honest I though you would not manage to succede to that terrible missile wawes.

I was pretty concerned myself at the time :)

There is a bug with laser torpedoes in v2.5.1, which means they don't always detonate at the correct range. That is fixed for v2.6.
 
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Offline Droll

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Re: Empire of the Stars - Comments Thread
« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2024, 04:17:50 PM »
Thank you Steve, your fictions are always a formidable source of inspiration for ships design +  We probably do not know everything about Aurora as you do of course, for example laser warhead, I never tried them and I do not know how they do work.

I read the battle of Kochi in one breath, being honest I though you would not manage to succede to that terrible missile wawes.

I was pretty concerned myself at the time :)

There is a bug with laser torpedoes in v2.5.1, which means they don't always detonate at the correct range. That is fixed for v2.6.

Was the CIWS not working bug fixed on 2.5.1? I don't see it on the 2.6 change list but do remember it being an issue on a recent version.
 

Offline nuclearslurpee

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Re: Empire of the Stars - Comments Thread
« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2024, 11:23:49 PM »
Well, now we know what Steve has been up to lately... eight posts in one go, wow!

A couple comments on the game start: the choice to have NPRs start 50+ light years away seems like it will make it hard to encounter all of them. I remember this was an issue with the Star Trek campaign so I would worry a bit, though with so much material already I don't think I need to worry much. I'm also sad not to see the ground force structures in more detail, I suppose you didn't want to spend the time typing that all up but I always love to see how people set up their roleplay ground formations.  ;D

I also hope the IJN develops a missile warfare doctrine over time. I don't think we have seen a missile-centric Steve AAR since 2.2 released and I'd love to see your take on the changes. It sounds like the Akagi is intended to evolve in this direction.

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21st March 1960
Murakumo enters the third of the four known jump points. So far, all the jump points have connected to stars within a few light years of Sol. This time, she arrives a little over four hundred million kilometres from a K2-V orange star more than seventy light years from Sol.

Wow... I didn't know this was possible. It must be improbable at least!

It's strange that an NPR managed to beat Japan into a system right next to Sol and deploy multiple ships already. Almost like a player race though I doubt they will prove nearly so tactically competent.

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12th September 1960
Kitakami arrives at the new jump point in Tsushima. She launches her Aichi E1A, which immediately transits. On arrival the scout detects a huge fleet of Scimitar ships waiting on the jump point. Within seconds, a 33,777-ton ship designated as Raptor class destroys the scout in a hail of railgun fire.

Oh good there will be fighting.  ;D

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23rd October 1963
Known space has grown to thirty-three systems, eighteen of which lack any planets and two are occupied by hostile aliens. The lack of habitable worlds is disappointing, although the conquest of Osaka III has offset that considerably. The most recently discovered system is a black hole, three transits from Earth via Barnard’s Star and Nagasaki, with a mass eighty times that of Sol.

map

It occurs to me that it might make sense to have black holes display a bit differently on the galactic map, perhaps in a different color from green such as purple?

Quote
22nd September 1965
dramatic battle noises

I'll echo the thread in being amazed that Japan managed to win this one. I thought for sure that the particle lance batteries (an excellent new addition!) would spell doom for the Kido Butai, but the reckless charge worked and there were just too few guns, with too long a recharge time, to carry the day. Still a harsh, even Pyrrhic victory for Japan, and the closest we've come to seeing Steve get beat by aliens since the pre-release Crusade campaign, I think.  ;D

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3rd December 1965
Approximately twenty million Rasheed have been conscripted to form one hundred and eighty-six forced labour mining camps and fifteen forced labour construction camps.

This is, um, lore-accurate, I'll give you that. Sucks to be an alien in the Empire of Japan I guess.

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7th March 1967
The fuel situation is also critical, with just two million litres on Earth.

Also lore-accurate, though without pesky American submarines sinking all their commercial shipping the IJN should eventually be able to deploy enough fuel harvesters to resolve this issue.

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13th March 1968
The 1st Hiko Sentai (air group), comprised of twenty-four Mitsubishi G1M 'Donryu' (Storm Dragon) Long Range Strike craft becomes operational on Earth. This is the first Imperial Navy unit armed with missiles. Each G1M carries a pair of Rakurai (Lighting Strike) anti-ship missiles with strength-12 warheads and is designed for long-range attacks from planetary bases. In addition to its warhead, the Rakurai has ECCM, active terminal guidance and five decoys.

Hooray, missiles! Now once all those pesky railgun fighters get blown up we can have some real fun.  ;D

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14th March 1969
Even so, thirty-five make it through the defensive missile screen. Fourteen strength-1 energy impacts are registered as the Rakurai reach point-blank range. Thirty detonate their strength-12 warheads, seventeen of which destroy the Zuijin’s own decoys. Thirteen strike the Devastator and one penetrates the armour.

Interesting. I had forgotten that decoy missiles could be so effective against box launcher salvos. May be time for the IJN to add ECCM to their missiles?

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4th June 1969
Full communication is established with the Minato aliens, [...] Their heads are long and similar to that of a shark, while their bodies are bearlike and covered with long spines. That apparent strength will be useful once the necessary labour camps are established.

It is important to have priorities in order.

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To do that, the Imperial Japanese Navy must expand significantly. Unfortunately the Empire is simultaneously facing a wealth crisis, a manpower crisis and the exhaustion of the mineral resources on Earth. Existing resource stockpiles will last for a while, but unless New Osaka and the recently established Takamatsu colony can replace the supply of those resources, shipbuilding may soon be severely constrained.

This sounds like an exciting strategic challenge and I look forward to seeing how you solve it!

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3rd August 1970
The presence of the Zuijin explains the Xiamen wrecks in Kwajalein, but also means that both outward jump points discovered in Makin so far lead to Zuijin-held system.

It does begin to seem rather as if that 25% ruins chance is an underestimate...  :P

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12th August 1970
The Empire of Japan has now encountered six alien races – possibly seven if the wreck in Kapteyn’s Star did not belong to one of the known races.

It does begin to seem rather as if that 50-100 LY NPR starting distance is an overestimate...  :P

Jokes aside, I really am surprised at how many NPRs you've met with fewer than 100 systems surveyed and the NPR start positions supposedly so far away. At least 3 of those 6 NPRs, as far as I can tell, are starting NPRs or were discovered early on by a starting NPR, yet they are operating in the vicinity of Sol. Very unexpected.

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28th September 1970
Therefore, Daigensui-Kaigun-Taishō Takagi declares that the Empire of Japan must find a way to establish a population at one of the five small comets in Hadano. There is insufficient space on the surface of the comets, so the Empire will prioritise the development of orbital habitats.

A bold plan. But why not just set up a DSP at a more convenient location? Comet orbits are extremely elliptical so they don't reliably hold a specific area of space, IMO.

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11th November 1970
The survey cruiser Oboro is in Sigma Draconis, working its way around the system’s asteroid belt, when it detects thermal emissions from an alien ship of a new race. [...] This is the seventh alien race to be encountered in less than eleven years.

Now this is just getting ridiculous...

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17th December 1970
The Aichi E1A scout from the Kido Butai arrives at the asteroid where the aliens were encountered several weeks earlier, finding the Orca and a single Barracuda still in orbit. As the scout moves closer to the aliens, the Barracuda opens fire with some form of laser weapon and destroys it.

Isn't it nice when the diplomacy is simple? Hostile, sure, but simple. No waiting around trying to guess when the evil aliens will finally go off their rockers.

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Moments later, the battlecruisers fire their 25cm lasers and the Barracuda disappears without leaving a wreck.

Uh-oh...

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31st December 1970
It is extremely disconcerting how easily the Mizuchi avoid Imperial Navy sensors. The same eight ships that destroyed the previous scout now claim another victim.

Is this by any chance an allusion to some under-the-hood upgrades for the, ahem, Mizuchi AI?  :o

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15th April 1971
If the fighter attack is not successful, the Mako could theoretically destroy the entire Kido Butai by holding the range open and firing from beyond Japanese weapon range.

excited missile warfare lobby noises

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7th May 1971
The main problem is the carriers, which are not designed for that type of close combat, so they are detached and ordered back to Sigma Draconis V. They are still in significant danger if the battle does not go well.

Steve, you promise so much, and yet...  :P

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Once again the Imperial Japanese Navy has been victorious, but once again the cost was very high. Two Kongo class battlecruisers have been destroyed, with the loss of fifteen hundred officers and crew, including Kaigun-Taisa Nakamura. Eight hundred survivors are rescued from life pods. Four of the original six Kongos have now been lost and the Imperial Navy is reduced to two battlecruisers. For now, the carriers and their fighters will have to be the shield of the Empire.

It's hard to say if this was worth it. The tonnage works out slightly in the Japanese favor, particularly given the tech disparity, but Japan can hardly afford to lose her capital ships given the variety of threats on many axes she must face. Another potentially Pyrrhic victory?

Quote
8th May 1971
That plan is barely underway, when the guard force detects sensor emissions eighty million kilometres further out-system from a pair of Stingrays. It appears the much larger force of forty-seven Mizuchi attack craft is making an appearance at a most inconvenient time.

It is convenient for the readership!  ;D

This is a long comment, but in my defense it was a long series of updates. Things are really starting to get tense though, at any moment the Kido Butai could come under attack by a new Mizuchi force they are not equipped to stand against. I will also say that the AI in general seems to be a lot smarter based on these reports, at least in terms of executing maneuvers.

Looks like a really fun campaign with a lot of variety and I am excited for more!  ;D
 
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Offline Garfunkel

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Re: Empire of the Stars - Comments Thread
« Reply #5 on: June 26, 2024, 06:13:35 AM »
Whoa, what an impressive campaign so far!
 

Offline Kaiser

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Re: Empire of the Stars - Comments Thread
« Reply #6 on: June 26, 2024, 08:17:07 AM »
Steve could you please add more details about your ground forces? What's the regiment composition? Do you have sub units as battalions?
 
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Offline Garfunkel

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Re: Empire of the Stars - Comments Thread
« Reply #7 on: June 26, 2024, 08:14:30 PM »
Another thrilling battle!
 

Offline nuclearslurpee

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Re: Empire of the Stars - Comments Thread
« Reply #8 on: June 26, 2024, 09:00:45 PM »
Quote
What was supposed to be a simple operation with overwhelming force is turning into a debacle.

Excellent.  ;D

Looks like the, um, Zuijin are becoming a proper threat to the player once again with all the missile warfare changes and following AI upgrades. This is great to see, what was once an annoyance for most players should now become a real challenge especially since the weapons loadout will change from game to game. Great stuff Steve!
 

Offline L0ckAndL0ad

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Re: Empire of the Stars - Comments Thread
« Reply #9 on: June 27, 2024, 02:06:04 AM »
What a busy stellar neighborhood! Truly a target rich environment. Wonder how the Empire would prioritize mineral spending if resource shortages would worsen.

Was wondering, what does it mean that aliens "accept claim" for a system?
 

Offline Steve Walmsley (OP)

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Re: Empire of the Stars - Comments Thread
« Reply #10 on: June 27, 2024, 04:26:57 AM »
Quote
What was supposed to be a simple operation with overwhelming force is turning into a debacle.

Excellent.  ;D

Looks like the, um, Zuijin are becoming a proper threat to the player once again with all the missile warfare changes and following AI upgrades. This is great to see, what was once an annoyance for most players should now become a real challenge especially since the weapons loadout will change from game to game. Great stuff Steve!

I haven't changed anything regarding potential Zuijin beam weapons, although I did make some changes in terms of missile options. Also I fixed a laser torpedo bug for v2.6, which makes them more effective now. Precursors can theoretically get particle lances in a v2.5.1 game (and I was genuinely surprised when I found out they had them). I have modified a couple of AI elements.
 
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Offline Steve Walmsley (OP)

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Re: Empire of the Stars - Comments Thread
« Reply #11 on: June 27, 2024, 04:29:06 AM »
What a busy stellar neighborhood! Truly a target rich environment. Wonder how the Empire would prioritize mineral spending if resource shortages would worsen.

Was wondering, what does it mean that aliens "accept claim" for a system?

Here is the rules post about claiming systems from NPR.
http://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php?topic=8495.msg118362#msg118362

There are 8 rules posts for Diplomacy in total:
 
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Offline Steve Walmsley (OP)

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Re: Empire of the Stars - Comments Thread
« Reply #12 on: June 27, 2024, 05:47:43 AM »
Quote
21st March 1960
Murakumo enters the third of the four known jump points. So far, all the jump points have connected to stars within a few light years of Sol. This time, she arrives a little over four hundred million kilometres from a K2-V orange star more than seventy light years from Sol.

Wow... I didn't know this was possible. It must be improbable at least!

It's strange that an NPR managed to beat Japan into a system right next to Sol and deploy multiple ships already. Almost like a player race though I doubt they will prove nearly so tactically competent.


There is a bug in v2.5.1 that can result in longer connections than intended. It was still in place for this situation, but fixed soon afterwards.

Quote
It occurs to me that it might make sense to have black holes display a bit differently on the galactic map, perhaps in a different color from green such as purple?

Yes, that is a good idea. I've added that for v2.6.

Quote
Quote
22nd September 1965
dramatic battle noises

I'll echo the thread in being amazed that Japan managed to win this one. I thought for sure that the particle lance batteries (an excellent new addition!) would spell doom for the Kido Butai, but the reckless charge worked and there were just too few guns, with too long a recharge time, to carry the day. Still a harsh, even Pyrrhic victory for Japan, and the closest we've come to seeing Steve get beat by aliens since the pre-release Crusade campaign, I think.  ;D

Particle lances (I think) are already possible in v2.5.1 - just unlikely. This was random in my game, rather than by design, and I was taken completely by surprise. At that point, I decided to embrace the RP element and go for a banzai charge, which turned out to be the right tactic.

Quote
Quote
3rd December 1965
Approximately twenty million Rasheed have been conscripted to form one hundred and eighty-six forced labour mining camps and fifteen forced labour construction camps.

This is, um, lore-accurate, I'll give you that. Sucks to be an alien in the Empire of Japan I guess.

Yes, again going with what I thought the Empire of Japan would do in that scenario, although I am assuming some moderation of the pre-WW2 culture over time

Quote
Quote
14th March 1969
Even so, thirty-five make it through the defensive missile screen. Fourteen strength-1 energy impacts are registered as the Rakurai reach point-blank range. Thirty detonate their strength-12 warheads, seventeen of which destroy the Zuijin’s own decoys. Thirteen strike the Devastator and one penetrates the armour.

Interesting. I had forgotten that decoy missiles could be so effective against box launcher salvos. May be time for the IJN to add ECCM to their missiles?

They have ECCM, but even with that its quite common to lose half a salvo to decoys.

Quote
Quote
12th August 1970
The Empire of Japan has now encountered six alien races – possibly seven if the wreck in Kapteyn’s Star did not belong to one of the known races.

It does begin to seem rather as if that 50-100 LY NPR starting distance is an overestimate...  :P

Jokes aside, I really am surprised at how many NPRs you've met with fewer than 100 systems surveyed and the NPR start positions supposedly so far away. At least 3 of those 6 NPRs, as far as I can tell, are starting NPRs or were discovered early on by a starting NPR, yet they are operating in the vicinity of Sol. Very unexpected.

Yes, I am certainly not short on potential (and real) threats, which combined with the various shortages is making this a very fun campaign.

Quote
Quote
28th September 1970
Therefore, Daigensui-Kaigun-Taishō Takagi declares that the Empire of Japan must find a way to establish a population at one of the five small comets in Hadano. There is insufficient space on the surface of the comets, so the Empire will prioritise the development of orbital habitats.

A bold plan. But why not just set up a DSP at a more convenient location? Comet orbits are extremely elliptical so they don't reliably hold a specific area of space, IMO.

One of the comets has a orbit close to the two inward jump points, plus I can add installations on the surface to boost the EM signature.

Quote
Quote
31st December 1970
It is extremely disconcerting how easily the Mizuchi avoid Imperial Navy sensors. The same eight ships that destroyed the previous scout now claim another victim.

Is this by any chance an allusion to some under-the-hood upgrades for the, ahem, Mizuchi AI?  :o

I have been tweaking the AI for a while, so I don't think this was specific to the Mizuchi. I need to add some code to help the AI deal better with converging threats though.

Quote
Quote
Once again the Imperial Japanese Navy has been victorious, but once again the cost was very high. Two Kongo class battlecruisers have been destroyed, with the loss of fifteen hundred officers and crew, including Kaigun-Taisa Nakamura. Eight hundred survivors are rescued from life pods. Four of the original six Kongos have now been lost and the Imperial Navy is reduced to two battlecruisers. For now, the carriers and their fighters will have to be the shield of the Empire.

It's hard to say if this was worth it. The tonnage works out slightly in the Japanese favor, particularly given the tech disparity, but Japan can hardly afford to lose her capital ships given the variety of threats on many axes she must face. Another potentially Pyrrhic victory?

Yes, I was having a Beatty moment when it came to the Kongos: "There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"

 
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Offline randakar

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Re: Empire of the Stars - Comments Thread
« Reply #13 on: June 28, 2024, 03:06:03 AM »
This is one hell of an action packed campaign. I love it.

A few questions:
- How are the salvage efforts going? Did you salvage any of those particle lances? Sounds like that might be worth putting into a ship, or breaking down for research.
- Given the learnings from the various big fights, what has the Empire learned? Is it going to adjust or create new designs based on those learnings?

For example, it seems prudent to design better countermeasures to these laser armed missiles, as they are a massive threat at the moment.

Similarly, finding those organic ships was pretty tough, and when you do find them they move too fast compared to the Imperial fleet. Looks like more or better sensors, and more or better engines should be a priority here ..
 

Offline Xkill

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Re: Empire of the Stars - Comments Thread
« Reply #14 on: June 29, 2024, 12:15:06 PM »
Wow, amazing new playthrough! Was hoping to see some more of the classic Steve missile battlegroup, but I'm being pleasantly surprised by this massive beam-fighter usage.

What a busy stellar neighbourhood! I never manage to get something like this in my games! What is it by now? 8 NPRs plus at least 10 spoiler-held systems? Must say, I am jealous! ;D

The beam fighters are making a serious killing, taking down enemies many times their tonnage, including ground forces. It seems the AI has difficulty dealing with them. I guess there are too few fire controls to fight with? Targetting efficiently so that damage is spread out seems to be very hard. I've come to see fighters as "reusable missiles". Individually weak, dependent on a mothership and group up in "salvos" just like ordnance. But the game's targetting mechanics treat them as proper ships and so anyone that is not specifically equiped to fight them, suffers. If the Zuijin used the AMMs against the fighters they could put a serious dent in their number too, but they did get a capital regardless, so not bad.
 
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