Author Topic: Conventional Start, slow research  (Read 8939 times)

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Offline roug (OP)

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Conventional Start, slow research
« on: June 25, 2024, 06:45:31 AM »
I am a guy that really like to take it slow (more realistic?)
Now i put the research speed at 1, but i can see some problems with this, i cannot make mines, or conventional factories, that is a problem if i want to expand my empire.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2024, 07:18:34 AM by roug »
 

Offline kks

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Re: Conventional Start, slow research
« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2024, 10:56:50 AM »
I also like a slower gamepace, especially concerning the tech advance.
However, setting research speed to 1(%, I may assume?) seems a bit overkill. I usually use somewhat between 0.75 and 0.2 for the research modifier, sometimes changing the species research modifier by up to 1/2 to 2.

If the industrial development is to fast, I would recommend starting with a smaller pop. Somewhere between 200-500 million is a sweet spot imho. That results in less shipbuilding capacity as well as general wealth available and can make for some games where every ship is important.

An issue are certain spoilers, which is why I only start with precursors. NPCs can also be set up at gamestart to similiar conditions, but they perform much more poorly than a human player and should not be reduced in size too much.
 

Offline ranger044

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Re: Conventional Start, slow research
« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2024, 05:29:58 PM »
If you're comfortable with editing the DB, you can make conventional industry build able. I run my conventional games at 50% speed, limited administration, but turn on conventional industry.

NOTE: If you do this, you forego any ability to bug report and any errors or corrupted files you end up with are on you.

With that being said, it's very easy to download a DB editor and then you just need to change a couple numbers. I personally have them allowed and make them cost 15% of all their associated upgraded facilities' costs. Makes them less valuable but still useful until you research trans-newtonian tech. The upgraded facilities are 10x better and cost less around 8x as much this way. Still encourages development, but allows a long early game.
 

Offline Froggiest1982

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Re: Conventional Start, slow research
« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2024, 05:50:51 PM »
For a conventional start, you can stick with the default administration limit toggle for science in the game options.

If you prefer slower games with longer "tech eras," you might consider starting as TN with the admin limit on and a 25% research rate (this is my setup). This will give you an average of 10 to 20 years per tech up to the basic 5,000. However, reaching the Ion age, which is crucial for defence in Aurora space, could take around 200 years if you focus solely on propulsion tech. Beware that I do spend the TN RP bonuses, so I don't start from the ground up, making this a lesser steep curve.

While I respect different playstyles, I think in this case you are just hurting yourself. Conventional, plus anything below 50% research, is just too much in my opinion.

Let's delve deeper. Opting for the above strategy could confine you to Sol for approximately 300 to 400 years, assuming you neglect basic combat and civilian technologies. Your mineral supply in Sol would last at most 150 years. Assuming you roll a Sorium source to any of the eligible planets, developing the necessary technologies could add another 50 years (5,000 RP is the final tech but you require at least another 2 side techs between 1,000 and 2,000 RPs if you go for mobile harvesters, 5,000 if you want tugs) to your expansion plans. However, without it, you'll simply run out of fuel, as maintaining even basic operations like moving freighters becomes prohibitively expensive. So at that point, you either cheat and add a Sorium source via SM or yield to the infamous RNG Gods.

Of course, you can build hundreds of research labs, but then what is the difference between releasing 10 technologies all at once every 20/30 years compared to releasing the same 10 technologies within the same amount of time?

Now, imagine surviving this initial period only to encounter a hostile NPR 500 years into the game. You are facing an NPR with a gazillion RPs that sees your race as the apes at the end of 2001: a space odyssey*.

So, what can you do?

You can still lower your research rate to something that you are feeling more comfortable, for sure, but your best bet is probably to tweak the exploration rate (mine is set at 5%), this will slow down your spread and operations already. You can also introduce several in house rules and pace yourself. For instance, you cannot research multiple techs for the same group at the same time, you cannot have more than 30 research labs in total for your race, etc.

Another idea (mentioned before my post as well) is to cut your Population drastically. For instance, try starting with only 100/150 million people.

Overall, my feedback is that while longer tech area are nice, the whole game will still play at the same pace (mineral consumption, economy, fuel usage, NPRs generation) and limiting research rate is not as effective as you may think as there are other areas that would require proper settings for you to enjoy the game and play it on levelled field once NPR or Spoilers appear. It's true that human players always have the upper hand over NPRs, however, tech is a major factor in Aurora (and real life).

*Note: I am unsure if starting RP points receive a cut by the malus in research rate when generating a new NPR in game, so that may not be an issue. I don't think so, as while the generation accounts for your RP (which were limited by the malus) I am pretty sure that in game time is part of the generation code. Anyway, I do know that NPR research rate is the same as yours once they spawn, along with all other parameters. Overall though, the handicap will impact more the NPR faction than the player at that point, further compromising the experience.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2024, 06:07:47 PM by Froggiest1982 »
 
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Offline nuclearslurpee

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Re: Conventional Start, slow research
« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2024, 06:24:40 PM »
If you prefer slower games with longer "tech eras," you might consider starting as TN with the admin limit on and a 25% research rate (this is my setup). This will give you an average of 10 to 20 years per tech up to the basic 5,000. However, reaching the Ion age, which is crucial for defence in Aurora space, could take around 200 years if you focus solely on propulsion tech. Beware that I do spend the TN RP bonuses, so I don't start from the ground up, making this a lesser steep curve.

I usually play with limited admin + 50% research speed (player race only). In my XCOM campaign I reached Ion Drive tech in about 20 years, but I had multiple extremely strong PP scientists from the start. With less powerful scientists maybe rushing to Ion Drive takes 25-30 years at these settings. Cutting research rate to only 25% would mean 50-60 years, not 200 years but still a very long time.

Quote
Now, imagine surviving this initial period only to encounter a hostile NPR 500 years into the game. You are facing an NPR with a gazillion RPs that sees your race as the apes at the end of 2001: a space odyssey*.

This is really the main problem with very slow games. At some point you will run into the NPRs (including very hostile spoilers) and then if you are stuck with primitive tech you will be wiped out unless you really know what you are doing.

Quote
Overall, my feedback is that while longer tech area are nice, the whole game will still play at the same pace (mineral consumption, economy, fuel usage, NPRs generation) and limiting research rate is not as effective as you may think as there are other areas that would require proper settings for you to enjoy the game and play it on levelled field once NPR or Spoilers appear. It's true that human players always have the upper hand over NPRs, however, tech is a major factor in Aurora (and real life).

There is a piece of wisdom about research rates: since tech costs in Aurora scale exponentially (roughly 2^x), there will always be a 'wall' you hit after which advancing in tech is a very slow process. Changing the research rate speed only changes the point in the tech tree where that wall is hit. With the default 100% that wall might come at, say, solid AM tech level, while on 20% research the wall may be at MP Drive or Magnetic Fusion tech levels. However, there will be a wall either way, all the tech slider decides is what tech level the wall is at. If you want to play 100 years at NPE tech, then you can set research to 5% as long as you are comfortable with the implications RE: NPRs and spoilers.

Quote
*Note: I am unsure if starting RP points receive a cut by the malus in research rate when generating a new NPR in game, so that may not be an issue. I don't think so, as while the generation accounts for your RP (which were limited by the malus) I am pretty sure that in game time is part of the generation code. Anyway, I do know that NPR research rate is the same as yours once they spawn, along with all other parameters. Overall though, the handicap will impact more the NPR faction than the player at that point, further compromising the experience.

IIRC, if you set the research rate in the global/New Game settings, it will also affect NPR generation and research because it is a global setting. Because of this, I always set the research rate modifier for the player species, leaving the NPRs at 100% research rate - they need the help anyways.  ;)
 
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Offline Jorgen_CAB

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Re: Conventional Start, slow research
« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2024, 06:30:55 PM »
I agree with Froggiest1982... I also usually run with research at 25% with admin limits and exploration at 5%. I do start at Conventional but I do add a few techs such as Trans-Newtonian tech developed... so the setup is between the default starting and Conventional start.

This I feel will provide a good early discovery period but not painfully long before you can start to develop in neighbouring systems and new colonies.

In my major campaign I also have several player factions, this will generally help tech advance go bit faster with tech diffusion and cooperation.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2024, 06:33:23 PM by Jorgen_CAB »
 
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Offline Froggiest1982

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Re: Conventional Start, slow research
« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2024, 06:31:54 PM »
I usually play with limited admin + 50% research speed (player race only). In my XCOM campaign I reached Ion Drive tech in about 20 years, but I had multiple extremely strong PP scientists from the start. With less powerful scientists maybe rushing to Ion Drive takes 25-30 years at these settings. Cutting research rate to only 25% would mean 50-60 years, not 200 years but still a very long time.

True, however you not factoring in all the side techs along with researching components, producing ships, and so on. Yet, still not 200, perhaps.  ;D

Quote
IIRC, if you set the research rate in the global/New Game settings, it will also affect NPR generation and research because it is a global setting. Because of this, I always set the research rate modifier for the player species, leaving the NPRs at 100% research rate - they need the help anyways.  ;)

This is what I often do as well. Your insectoids may be more industrious and reproduce at a higher level than the average human. However, we may have slightly better scientific prowess.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2024, 06:33:32 PM by Froggiest1982 »
 

Offline nuclearslurpee

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Re: Conventional Start, slow research
« Reply #7 on: June 25, 2024, 06:49:43 PM »
I usually play with limited admin + 50% research speed (player race only). In my XCOM campaign I reached Ion Drive tech in about 20 years, but I had multiple extremely strong PP scientists from the start. With less powerful scientists maybe rushing to Ion Drive takes 25-30 years at these settings. Cutting research rate to only 25% would mean 50-60 years, not 200 years but still a very long time.

True, however you not factoring in all the side techs along with researching components, producing ships, and so on. Yet, still not 200, perhaps.  ;D

This is with Limited Research Admin, so the side techs and components all happen pretty naturally since even my best scientists only command 10-12 labs at most. I suppose if you play a game starting with only 10 or fewer labs (i.e., starting with 100-150m population) then the picture may be different though.
 

Offline Kaiser

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Re: Conventional Start, slow research
« Reply #8 on: June 26, 2024, 12:57:48 AM »
I also like to play slow starting always conventional but leaving all the other options as default when we speak about research speed.
Believe me, in the beginning you probably makes a lot of discovery because the low cost and that gives you the feeling of a fast game, but as long as you progress in the game, as long as you do not construct dozzillion of labs, the amount of researches slow down due to the increase cost and the need to reseach always new designs if you do not want be oblitered by aliens and keep your fleet in order.

Maybe Steve could reconsider the research cost in terms of wealth making it more expensive, thus avoiding the buildup of laboratories; in real life the tech research is a very expensive part of the budget expecially the basic one.
 

Offline alex_brunius

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Re: Conventional Start, slow research
« Reply #9 on: June 26, 2024, 04:04:39 AM »
I also like to play slow starting always conventional but leaving all the other options as default when we speak about research speed.
Believe me, in the beginning you probably makes a lot of discovery because the low cost and that gives you the feeling of a fast game, but as long as you progress in the game, as long as you do not construct dozzillion of labs, the amount of researches slow down due to the increase cost and the need to reseach always new designs if you do not want be oblitered by aliens and keep your fleet in order.

Maybe Steve could reconsider the research cost in terms of wealth making it more expensive, thus avoiding the buildup of laboratories; in real life the tech research is a very expensive part of the budget expecially the basic one.

I'm always a proponent of using diminishing returns to automatically balance things. So I want to suggest something similar.

Research funding setting.
Basically you can set research funding (wealth cost of running labs) between for example 10% and 500% and it modifies your research speed acc to for example SQRT ([Research Funding %]/100)

This means you would get the following:



If that is too steep impact the exponent can be changed to cube root or any other value that seems appropriate, but the main purpose is to allow you to easily scale down and up research funding as your wealth budget and priorities allows. Most player would probably want to run at higher research funding levels to speed up research so the wealth cost would naturally increase.

Another potential outside the box suggestion to make researching expensive is considering if running research facilities should consume any TN minerals in addition to wealth.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2024, 05:20:57 AM by alex_brunius »
 
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Offline Steve Walmsley

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Re: Conventional Start, slow research
« Reply #10 on: June 26, 2024, 04:20:24 AM »
I also like to play slow starting always conventional but leaving all the other options as default when we speak about research speed.
Believe me, in the beginning you probably makes a lot of discovery because the low cost and that gives you the feeling of a fast game, but as long as you progress in the game, as long as you do not construct dozzillion of labs, the amount of researches slow down due to the increase cost and the need to reseach always new designs if you do not want be oblitered by aliens and keep your fleet in order.

Maybe Steve could reconsider the research cost in terms of wealth making it more expensive, thus avoiding the buildup of laboratories; in real life the tech research is a very expensive part of the budget expecially the basic one.

I'm always a proponent of using diminishing returns to automatically balance things. So I want to suggest something similar.

Research funding setting.
Basically you can set research funding (wealth cost of running labs) between for example 10% and 500% and it modifies your research speed acc to for example SQRT ([Research Funding %]/100)

This means you would get the following:



If that is too steep impact the exponent can be changed to cube root or any other value that seems appropriate, but the main purpose is to allow you to easily scale down and up research funding as your wealth budget and priorities allows. Most player would probably want to run at higher research funding levels to speed up research so the wealth cost would naturally increase.

Another potential out of the box suggestion to make researching expensive is considering if running research facilities should consume any TN minerals in addition to wealth.

The idea of research labs consuming TN minerals is interesting - especially if it is one or more of the lesser used ores.
 
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Offline Kaiser

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Re: Conventional Start, slow research
« Reply #11 on: June 26, 2024, 04:34:03 AM »
This would make totally sense, as the research involves the creation of prototypes, new materials etc... which always requires some amount of minerals.
 

Offline roug (OP)

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Re: Conventional Start, slow research
« Reply #12 on: June 26, 2024, 05:04:06 AM »
Ok, i checked my settings now i am at research speed 3 and limited research administration is on. i did not think of the precursors, star swarm, Rakhas and Aether Raiders everything is on (maybe i should turn them off) i usually dont use npr from start but generation chance for player is 45 and for npr 25. I also change the factory production mod to 0.5 usually

The problem is that i dont like fast passed games, and i think new tech is researched way to fast, i would like somethin like 50 - 100 years before new tech is researched or longer.
 

Offline Jorgen_CAB

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Re: Conventional Start, slow research
« Reply #13 on: June 27, 2024, 01:53:53 AM »
I like both of those suggestions to be honest. Funding is the resources and wealth you pay, set per planet/population which is the efficiency at which the lab produce RP. The funding level then decide how much resources and wealth you pay to get those RP.
 

Offline Garfunkel

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Re: Conventional Start, slow research
« Reply #14 on: June 27, 2024, 10:18:16 AM »
I would be against research costing TN minerals. Labs already require quite an intensive effort to build as they are expensive and require a large population to run. The fact that planets have population limits and that research bonus constructs exist drive the dispersions of labs from Earth (or the starting homeworld), which is also a significant cargo lift operation. Plus, research usually is the single most expensive item in your budget. Adding the need to bring in TN-minerals to your research colonies would be bit too punishing, IMHO.
 
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