Computer-controlled Empires

[Bellerophon06]

The NPR system sounds excellent, and something that I have personally being wanting to see.  I would like to see the ability to take a PR and change it at a later date to an NPR race.  This would allow the player the ability to set up a single system with multiple empires, split them up, and then have the program run the empires later on.  It would work very well for a varient of the Trans Newtonian Campaign that Steve has set up that I would like to run.  

[Steve Walmsley (OP)]

All the changes that are coming with V4.0 sound great; I've also got some reservations about lack of SM access to NPRs but I'll give it good go before passing judgement.
I'd also like to add my voice to those clamouring for pirates and security ratings for systems.  I would hate to see my pesky civilian ships cruising obliviously into the teeth of an alien invasion fleet.  No really I would  . Its a little thin but it does provide a reason for 'pirates'

I am not sure about pre-set security ratings though. In a game like EVE, the pre-set security ratings are set by the various NPR empires to advise shipping based presumably on historical pirate activity. There would be no reason for such pre-set ratings in Aurora. However, its possible that security ratings might evolve over time and they would be different for each Empire. Assume all ratings start as zero, which is assumed to be safe. If ships are attacked by hostile Empires or pirates are spotted, the security rating of that system would rise accordingly for the Empire involved. As time passed without any incidents, the security rating would gradually fall. Civilian shipping would presumably avoid systems with higher security ratings.

By the way, the Commonwealth has encountered a computer-controlled Empire that detected, intercepted and destroyed a Commonwealth Survey Ship entirely on automatic.

Steve

[Steve Walmsley (OP)]

SA is/was better for Multi-Player because it is not real-time. Because of the Real-Time aspect of Aurora you can't really "pass around" the database and run a months worth of turns, at least not easily because of the need for micro-management.

Exactly what I was getting at.  I'm not being critical.  Steve wrote the game for himself to play solo.  But it would be nice if there was some way to play it multiplayer.  If I can get a couple old SA player friends to help, I'm going to try playing around to see if there is some way to use the current Aurora software in some sort of multiplayer way that isn't too cumbersome.  Maybe a dedicated SM to play out any battles.  Although being able to control their side of battles is a big allure to most players.  That wasn't an issue in SA since SA didn't really support playing Starfire battles (although it had tools to help).  We always just got the actual Starfire game out to resolve battles which was good fun.  That did necessitate face to face meetings.  These days it probably wouldn't be hard to whip up a cyberboard gamebox for such things.

With Aurora the players would issue orders as and when needed. In many cases, especially early on, the game can run for months without the need for a lot of player interaction. The database would be passed to a particular player when events warranted it, rather than passing it round everyone at set intervals. With regard to combat, Aurora combat is a lot faster than in Starfire and require a lot less player involvement once it gets going (which was deliberate because it was taking me days to play out a single battle in the Rigellian Campaign). The SM could play the battles out based on general orders from the player (as would be necessary in a remote Starfire campaign). You could even communicate with the players via email during the battle and implement their instructions accordingly.

Steve

[Steve Walmsley (OP)]

The NPR system sounds excellent, and something that I have personally being wanting to see.  I would like to see the ability to take a PR and change it at a later date to an NPR race.  This would allow the player the ability to set up a single system with multiple empires, split them up, and then have the program run the empires later on.  It would work very well for a varient of the Trans Newtonian Campaign that Steve has set up that I would like to run.  

This probably wouldn't be that hard to setup in terms of converting ships and pops. The main problem would be that the NPR movement and combat code is aware of what happens in the NPR design code so it makes certain assumptions. With player-designed ships it is possible it might run into something unexpected. That will become less of a problem as the NPR code become more sophisticated so I should be able to add it in the not-too-distant future.

Steve

[jfelten]

The problems with pirates in any strategic space game is that there has to be a reason for them to be there. I have been giving it some thought and I think I have come up with a plausible reason. Already within the background for the game there are the Precursors, an ancient race that was wiped out but still maintains robot ships at some of their old colonies, or perhaps it is their conquerors that maintain those forces. Although Precursors haven't been in the game for a while they are back in v4.0. Perhaps the surviving precursor units are not limited to those at ruin sites. Smaller ships, lacking jump drives, may have been trapped in various star systems when the Precursor civilization fell. Their instructions to fight the invaders would still remain and they would attack any forces entering the system in which they are trapped. Of course, if you happen to build a jump gate into their system, they wouldn't be trapped any longer :). Its a little thin but it does provide a reason for 'pirates'

I am not sure about pre-set security ratings though. In a game like EVE, the pre-set security ratings are set by the various NPR empires to advise shipping based presumably on historical pirate activity. There would be no reason for such pre-set ratings in Aurora. However, its possible that security ratings might evolve over time and they would be different for each Empire. Assume all ratings start as zero, which is assumed to be safe. If ships are attacked by hostile Empires or pirates are spotted, the security rating of that system would rise accordingly for the Empire involved. As time passed without any incidents, the security rating would gradually fall. Civilian shipping would presumably avoid systems with higher security ratings.

By the way, the Commonwealth has encountered a computer-controlled Empire that detected, intercepted and destroyed a Commonwealth Survey Ship entirely on automatic.

Steve

I don't care for pirates much in space fiction but they are obviously popular  and I have few ideas, especially if you don't take the term pirate too literally.  One is that in addition to Precursor robot warships there are also Precursor scavenger ships (ancient warships probably need some way to get maintenance materials even if they can fabricate their own repair parts) out there.  Perhaps they have a high tendency to have powerful cloaking devices and engines making them hard to catch.  They try to avoid ships they calculate are warships but will attack a ship(s) they think is a freighter and carry off its cargo or pieces of the freighter itself.  They could also attack civilian ships that they encounter and there could be some mechanism added for the civilian sector to demand the navy "do something" about it.  Maybe the civilian ships go on strike for awhile or something whenever one is attacked.  Although in 3.2 I kind of wish they would sometimes.  

Another thought is that they prey on trade routes or whatever they are called.  Some of that income starts disappearing until the navy tracks down the scavenger.  

Yet another thought is one of the civilian ships is actually a pirate in disguise.  Hunts for other lone civilian ships and somehow boards them when away from busy star systems.  Perhaps they mount a hidden beam weapon or tractor beam or such.  You might even have the rare event when 2 civilian pirates encounter each other and slug it out.  

Of course there is also the giant space goat out there somewhere . . .

[Steve Walmsley (OP)]

I don't care for pirates much in space fiction but they are obviously popular  and I have few ideas, especially if you don't take the term pirate too literally.  One is that in addition to Precursor robot warships there are also Precursor scavenger ships (ancient warships probably need some way to get maintenance materials even if they can fabricate their own repair parts) out there.  Perhaps they have a high tendency to have powerful cloaking devices and engines making them hard to catch.  They try to avoid ships they calculate are warships but will attack a ship(s) they think is a freighter and carry off its cargo or pieces of the freighter itself.  They could also attack civilian ships that they encounter and there could be some mechanism added for the civilian sector to demand the navy "do something" about it.  Maybe the civilian ships go on strike for awhile or something whenever one is attacked.  Although in 3.2 I kind of wish they would sometimes.  

Another thought is that they prey on trade routes or whatever they are called.  Some of that income starts disappearing until the navy tracks down the scavenger.  

Yet another thought is one of the civilian ships is actually a pirate in disguise.  Hunts for other lone civilian ships and somehow boards them when away from busy star systems.  Perhaps they mount a hidden beam weapon or tractor beam or such.  You might even have the rare event when 2 civilian pirates encounter each other and slug it out.  

It would be difficult for the 'pirate' to tell the difference between a warship and a freighter, just as its difficult for a player to tell unless the contact starts firing at him. However, the idea that the civilians would require naval forces to protect them is a good one. Perhaps as an addition to the possible security ratings mentioned earlier, those ratings would be offset based on the PPV of warships in the same system. Its entirely possible that two NPRs or an NPR and a 'pirate' would fight each other. Neither can distinguish the other from a player race. With the way v4.0 is set up, NPR Empires could fight entire wars out of the sight of players and destroy each other's colonies. Player races may find wrecks and irradiated worlds as a result of such conflicts

Of course there is also the giant space goat out there somewhere . . .

I will be adding some weird stuff at some point in the future. Planet Eaters, Space Dragons, etc.

Steve

[Erik L]

[quote="Steve Walmsley]Its entirely possible that two NPRs or an NPR and a 'pirate' would fight each other. Neither can distinguish the other from a player race. With the way v4.0 is set up, NPR Empires could fight entire wars out of the sight of players and destroy each other's colonies. Player races may find wrecks and irradiated worlds as a result of such conflicts
Steve[/quote]

That I like  

How about something where a ship commander goes rogue? Or a crew mutinies? Until they are hunted down and captured, they would act as a pirate.

[jfelten]

It would be difficult for the 'pirate' to tell the difference between a warship and a freighter, just as its difficult for a player to tell unless the contact starts firing at him. However, the idea that the civilians would require naval forces to protect them is a good one. Perhaps as an addition to the possible security ratings mentioned earlier, those ratings would be offset based on the PPV of warships in the same system. Its entirely possible that two NPRs or an NPR and a 'pirate' would fight each other. Neither can distinguish the other from a player race. With the way v4.0 is set up, NPR Empires could fight entire wars out of the sight of players and destroy each other's colonies. Player races may find wrecks and irradiated worlds as a result of such conflicts.

Steve

I have heard that the Precursors have some amazing technology . . .  Actually it wouldn't be beyond the realm of science fiction to be able to calculate the density of a ship based on sensor data.  Depending on what was being hauled an educated guess could be made as to whether something is a freighter from a distance.  Above a certain density it is probably a freighter carrying bulk cargo such as ore.  Below a certain density is is probably a freighter either empty or carrying a low density cargo such as giant space goat mohair.  And sometimes they might make a fatal mistake and attack a warship.  Or, another "freighter" could come so close as to be able to make a visual identification, perhaps by feigning a distress of some sort.  Or they might have obtained a copy of the flight plan and just know here to be when.  I'm sure we could think something up that was reasonably believable.

[Erik L]

It would be difficult for the 'pirate' to tell the difference between a warship and a freighter, just as its difficult for a player to tell unless the contact starts firing at him. However, the idea that the civilians would require naval forces to protect them is a good one. Perhaps as an addition to the possible security ratings mentioned earlier, those ratings would be offset based on the PPV of warships in the same system. Its entirely possible that two NPRs or an NPR and a 'pirate' would fight each other. Neither can distinguish the other from a player race. With the way v4.0 is set up, NPR Empires could fight entire wars out of the sight of players and destroy each other's colonies. Player races may find wrecks and irradiated worlds as a result of such conflicts.

Steve

I have heard that the Precursors have some amazing technology . . .  Actually it wouldn't be beyond the realm of science fiction to be able to calculate the density of a ship based on sensor data.  Depending on what was being hauled an educated guess could be made as to whether something is a freighter from a distance.  Above a certain density it is probably a freighter carrying bulk cargo such as ore.  Below a certain density is is probably a freighter either empty or carrying a low density cargo such as giant space goat mohair.  And sometimes they might make a fatal mistake and attack a warship.  Or, another "freighter" could come so close as to be able to make a visual identification, perhaps by feigning a distress of some sort.  Or they might have obtained a copy of the flight plan and just know here to be when.  I'm sure we could think something up that was reasonably believable.

The thing with "magic" tech for Precursors is that all of that tech is potentially available via ruins.

[jfelten]

The thing with "magic" tech for Precursors is that all of that tech is potentially available via ruins.

I don't think it would be too unbalancing if a player was to find a "freighter detector".  Or maybe it is something that without constant maintenance crumbles to dust.  Or requires some unique material, that is perhaps consumed with use and needs to be replenished, of which a source is yet unknown.  Or some such excuse.  

If all civilian ships always had their IFF on that would be another way to pick them out one the system was known.  

The commercial engines being discussed on another thread are another possibly way to guess at what is a civilian ship and what is military.  

Like I wrote, I would just as soon there be no "pirates" in the game.  But if people want them, the whole Aurora universe has no solid basis or background so we can come up with something that can be made to fit without being too unbelievable.  If you can swallow reactionless propulsion at sizable fractions of the speed of light, "warp points" that link to distant star systems, guiding missiles at millions of kilometers distance with enough accuracy to hit another missile, robotic Precursor spaceships still functional after centuries, etc. etc., something that can judge whether something is a freighter or warship with reasonable accuracy sounds pretty trivial.

[Erik L]

The thing with "magic" tech for Precursors is that all of that tech is potentially available via ruins.

I don't think it would be too unbalancing if a player was to find a "freighter detector".  Or maybe it is something that without constant maintenance crumbles to dust.  Or requires some unique material, that is perhaps consumed with use and needs to be replenished, of which a source is yet unknown.  Or some such excuse.  

If all civilian ships always had their IFF on that would be another way to pick them out one the system was known.  

The commercial engines being discussed on another thread are another possibly way to guess at what is a civilian ship and what is military.  

Like I wrote, I would just as soon there be no "pirates" in the game.  But if people want them, the whole Aurora universe has no solid basis or background so we can come up with something that can be made to fit without being too unbelievable.  If you can swallow reactionless propulsion at sizable fractions of the speed of light, "warp points" that link to distant star systems, guiding missiles at millions of kilometers distance with enough accuracy to hit another missile, robotic Precursor spaceships still functional after centuries, etc. etc., something that can judge whether something is a freighter or warship with reasonable accuracy sounds pretty trivial.

I'd rather see privateers than pirates, but one government's privateer is another's pirate.

I'm just thinking of novels like Honor Harrington (Pirates in the Silesian Confederacy) & Vatta's War which all have multiple established empires and pirates/privateers.

[jfelten]

I'd rather see privateers than pirates, but one government's privateer is another's pirate.

Very true.  

I'm just thinking of novels like Honor Harrington (Pirates in the Silesian Confederacy) & Vatta's War which all have multiple established empires and pirates/privateers.

Well, I'll probably get boo'ed off stage by saying I don't like Weber.  Someone gave me his War of Meetings book (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_Honor) as a gift years ago and after a couple hundred pages of some of the worst science fiction writing I've ever read I tossed it.  Horrible.

[Steve Walmsley (OP)]

I have heard that the Precursors have some amazing technology . . .  Actually it wouldn't be beyond the realm of science fiction to be able to calculate the density of a ship based on sensor data.  Depending on what was being hauled an educated guess could be made as to whether something is a freighter from a distance.  Above a certain density it is probably a freighter carrying bulk cargo such as ore.  Below a certain density is is probably a freighter either empty or carrying a low density cargo such as giant space goat mohair.  And sometimes they might make a fatal mistake and attack a warship.  Or, another "freighter" could come so close as to be able to make a visual identification, perhaps by feigning a distress of some sort.  Or they might have obtained a copy of the flight plan and just know here to be when.  I'm sure we could think something up that was reasonably believable.

The Precursors have the same available tech as player races. They just start with a lot more research points so they have ships based on better technology. Unlike the first incarnation of Precursors, in each game their tech and the designs of their ships will be generated from scratch rather than relying on a set number of pre-generated designs.

Precursors, like player ships, can learn about active sensor contacts if they study them long enough. Just as players can eventually figure out which alien ships have cargo holds and which have missile launchers, so can Precursors. The problem is that it takes time to get that information and while the Precursor is studying the contact, the player would be summoning assistance.

Steve

[Erik L]

I'd rather see privateers than pirates, but one government's privateer is another's pirate.

Very true.  

I'm just thinking of novels like Honor Harrington (Pirates in the Silesian Confederacy) & Vatta's War which all have multiple established empires and pirates/privateers.

Well, I'll probably get boo'ed off stage by saying I don't like Weber.  Someone gave me his War of Meetings book (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_Honor) as a gift years ago and after a couple hundred pages of some of the worst science fiction writing I've ever read I tossed it.  Horrible.

Weber does have a tendency towards deus ex machina. And a penchant for details.

[sloanjh]

On pirates:  I'm hoping this would couple in with a "domestic unrest" system, i.e. rebellious planets, economically oppressed planets, etc.  One way to do this might be through gunboats (or even fighters) rather than full-up ships.  I forget how hard it is to detect GB bases on a planet, but if it isn't an autodetect situation, then they could pop up on poorly-governed worlds in the same way civilian space centers do.  Or a civilian cargo ship could drop a GB base off on a nearby asteroid or moon, and regularly perform re-supply runs.  Or the cargo hold on a civilian ship might actually be a hangar bay for fighters.  The core idea here is that piracy would be a function of lawless populations, and could actually be based on worlds controlled by the empire.  One nice part of this is that it gives a motivation for having armed fleet units (and security/military units?) even if no external threats to the empire (NPR races) are present - they would be needed for piracy suppression.  It could also change the garrison requirements from being hard-wired to being a decision made by players: pirate attacks would increase unhappiness (leading to lower productivity); ground forces would reduce lawlessness (reducing the chance of pirates springing up) while naval patrols would provide protection.

This model also works for "privateers" or "freedom fighters" - a conquered population might have a high chance of producing "pirate" (actually rebel) bases, while another government might spontaneously commission civilian Q-ships.  The lawlessness and/or pirate/privateer probability could also be skewed by government type.

I don't have detailed knowledge of it, but my recollection is that the vast majority of historical pirates didn't have a blue-water capability; instead they were short-ranged boats full of men which preyed on coastal traffic.  This seems to be what's been going on off Somalia until recently, and also the sort of pirates that have been active in Indonesia (Straights of Malacca, IIRC) for many years now.  It seems like the Somalian pirates have recently gained blue-water capability by using "tenders"; this is where the idea above for civilian cargo ships that actually have hangar space for GB or fighters came from.  Another observation here is that, in both cases, they're operating near choke points or navigational obstructions - the Aurora equivalent would be to find an asteroid near a heavily used asteroid and park a pirate base there.

John