Missile related questions.

[Soralin (OP)]

Ok, so I've looked through the posts here, and found answers to a number of things, but there's a bit more detailed information that I want to know.

First off a bit of background (you can just skip past this to the questions if you want), just mainly trying out some designs and research in SM mode, but trying to keep it in the region where I could build it with just my initial research and PDC points, I came up with this monster, that i should be able to build with just a good chunk of starting tech points, and starting fast OB creation allotment for PDCs:

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Relentless class ICBM Launch Base    17800 tons     2525 Crew     2967.2 BP      TCS 356  TH 0  EM 0
Armour 10-60     Sensors 1/448     Damage Control Rating 0     PPV 210
Magazine 210    

PDC Size 40 Missile Launcher (5)    Missile Size 40    Rate of Fire 200
PDC Size 1 Missile Launcher (10)    Missile Size 1    Rate of Fire 5
Missile Fire Control FC4-R1 (2)     Range 4.8m km    Resolution 1
Missile Fire Control FC369-R100 (1)     Range 369.6m km    Resolution 100
Size 1 Anti-missile Missile (10)  Speed: 16,700 km/s   End: 9.9m    Range: 10m km   WH: 1    Size: 1    TH: 111 / 66 / 33
Long Range Missile Pack (18k, 9d)x4 (4)  Speed: 4,000 km/s   End: 1d    Range: 351.5m km   WH: 0    Size: 40    TH: 6 / 4 / 2
Long Range Chaff (18k,.9a)x16 (1)  Speed: 4,000 km/s   End: 1d    Range: 351.5m km   WH: 0    Size: 40    TH: 6 / 4 / 2

Active Search Sensor MR4-R1 (1)     GPS 448     Range 4.9m km    Resolution 1
Active Search Sensor MR352-R100 (1)     GPS 32000     Range 352.0m km    Resolution 100

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s


This design is classed as a Planetary Defence Centre and can be pre-fabricated in 8 sections The missile packs are as follows:

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Missile Size: 40 MSP  (2 HS)     Warhead: 0    Armour: 0     Manoeuvre Rating: 5
Speed: 4000 km/s    Endurance: 1458 minutes   Range: 350.0m km
Cost Per Missile: 21.0185
Second Stage: Size 7 Anti-ship Missile x4
Second Stage Separation Range: 1,500,000 km
Overall Endurance: 1 days   Overall Range: 352.2m km
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 20%   3k km/s 5%   5k km/s 4%   10k km/s 2%
Materials Required:    9x Tritanium   17.1439x Gallicite   Fuel x17500

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Missile Size: 7 MSP  (0.35 HS)     Warhead: 9    Armour: 0     Manoeuvre Rating: 21
Speed: 18000 km/s    Endurance: 2 minutes   Range: 2.2m km
Cost Per Missile: 4.6192
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 378%   3k km/s 126%   5k km/s 75.6%   10k km/s 37.8%
Materials Required:    2.25x Tritanium   3.6818x Gallicite   Fuel x193.5

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Missile Size: 40 MSP  (2 HS)     Warhead: 0    Armour: 0     Manoeuvre Rating: 5
Speed: 4000 km/s    Endurance: 1458 minutes   Range: 350.0m km
Cost Per Missile: 14.7017
Second Stage: Size 1.75 Decoy x16
Second Stage Separation Range: 1,499,000 km
Overall Endurance: 1 days   Overall Range: 352.3m km
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 20%   3k km/s 5%   5k km/s 4%   10k km/s 2%
Materials Required:    3.776x Tritanium   6.8007x Gallicite   Fuel x17500

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Missile Size: 1.75 MSP  (0.0875 HS)     Warhead: 0    Armour: 0.944     Manoeuvre Rating: 10
Speed: 18000 km/s    Endurance: 2 minutes   Range: 2.3m km
Cost Per Missile: 0.76
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 180%   3k km/s 60%   5k km/s 36%   10k km/s 18%
Materials Required:    0.236x Tritanium   0.274x Gallicite   Fuel x50

The long range missile packs each carry 4 missiles that are 9 damage each, can travel 350m km, and then drop off the missiles at about 1.5m km out.  The Chaff, is the same sort of thing, except it carries 16 decoy missiles, with a bit of armor, that travel the same speed as my normal missiles, and are dropped off 1.499m km out, so they get out slightly faster, and stay ahead of the normal missiles at a set distance.  Specifically, at the speeds here, the decoys would deploy 1/4s early, giving them a 3500km lead on the normal missiles, putting them under 1/5 of a second ahead, since I heard that closer missiles get priority, they're just very slightly closer, but not far enough out for the close point defenses to get time to reload on the real ones.  A normal salvo would launch 4 missile packs, and 1 chaff pack, meaning 16 missiles with 9 damage, and 16 decoys with some armor, at a range of 350m km, every 200s.

Now, some questions about this:

1.  Does fractional armor on missiles do anything?  For example the 0.944 armor I have on my decoys.  Will that give them any protection against a 1 damage attack?  Will it just give them a probability to survive the first hit, or will they just be destroyed immediately if any damage passes the armor?

2.  I have the decoys releasing just 1/4 of a second before the actual missiles, so they can get a tiny headstart. Will this correctly work with the 5s game time cycles?  And will enemy forces then preferentially shoot at the very slightly closer decoys?

3.  From what I've read, I need sensors on these, or they'll just self-destruct once the first target is destroyed.  (which is a big issue, when they take a day to reach their maximum range, and if my target is stationary at maximum range, I can fire out about 437 salvos of these, before the first reaches it's target.)  Is this correct?  If I just put sensors on the drones, and not their submunitions, will that work to have them find a new target, and launch their secondary stage at it?  Or would I actually need to have sensors on the missiles? (with this setup, and the reload time, i wouldn't have more then one salvo of secondary missiles released at any one time.)  They would all still be within the fire control and active scanner range of the home missile base.

4.  Does the PDC actually need any additional magazine capacity?  Because it seems that I can just load missiles directly from the planetary stockpile.  Although I've only found a way to do it manually, which would mean I'd have to do it every salvo, is there any way to have it automatically reload from the planet?

And not really a question, but while I found that I could likely build this with my starting research points, and starting PDC allotment in the fast OB creation screen, it likely wouldn't be wise.  Not only would it take quite a bit, but I found out that with my starting ordinance factories going all out only on this, in a year, they can produce about 12 salvos(48 missile packs and 12 chaff decoy packs), each salvo costing nearly 100 ordinance production.  Which would mean that this base could use up a year's supply in about 40 minutes.  And launching at a stationary target at maximum range, could fire off over 36 years of missiles at my initial production rates, before the first hits it's target.  So maybe focusing more on production first would be smarter.

[Andrew]

All AFAIK
1) Armour does not work like it does on ships an armour 1 missile has a 50% chacne of surviving any 1 DP hit , . I think partial armour works but could be wrong
2)No the 1/4 second release will not work
3)I think the submunitons need sensors, if you want the missiles to change target the main missiles need sensors as well
4)You can do this way it is a feature , you should need magazines

Size 40 missiles are ridicuously big and those are so slow they are never going to achieve anything. Just build and fire size 7 missiles. Most of my fleets try to engage incoming missiles at 2-3 million km so they would be interceptpting your giant slow missiles but that is with slightly more advanced tech
Also 32 missiles every few minutes will not overload most fleet antimissile defenses they will just shoot down all the missiles each time

[UnLimiTeD]

Maneuver rating: 5
I think he's using drones?
For extra long Range missiles.

[Soralin (OP)]

Yeah, the big ones are very long range drones carrying a payload of missiles, so that a single base on Earth or such can cover the whole inner system.  They don't need to actually be able to hit anything, or avoid getting shot down, just get close enough to an enemy ship, and then they launch out their payload of high speed missiles from (ideally) outside the interception range.  It's mostly just seeing what I can do with very long range defensive systems.

Yeah, there's a limited number of missiles I can actually field from just one base though, and if that can't break through the point defense, it wouldn't do much to have a bunch more of them, spaced out too far apart, unless I can wear out their supply of anti-missile missiles or something, but that would be costly with these things.  Hmm, if I had to have the separation for the decoys spaced out at least 5s apart, then at the speed of those drones, 20k km or so should do it.  I could use 1/2 size 5x reload launchers, and put out a volley of 64 missiles, 32 with 9 damage payloads, and 32 armored decoys 5s ahead of them  For the same size/cost.  But it would take 1000s to reload. But still, even if they were moving at 10000km/s toward me, I would still be able to get out 35 volleys of missiles before they reached me, although with the speed the drones move at, only 17(x64) or so of them would reach the enemy before they got within 50m km or so.  And worse if I'm trying to defend anywhere but the place firing these, due to the long travel time.

[welchbloke]

A point to note regarding your decoys.  If the target has 5s reload AMM launchers or beams with a 5s recharge they will not do much other than expend the target's missile stocks.

[Brian Neumann]

A point to note regarding your decoys.  If the target has 5s reload AMM launchers or beams with a 5s recharge they will not do much other than expend the target's missile stocks.

Against the beam's you are correct.  Against the AMM launchers it depends on how good their intercept rate is and on how many launchers.  If they only hit about 30% of the time, and 40% of those do not score a kill because of the armour then they will need 8 launchers per decoy or they will be shooting multiple times per launcher to score enough hits.  Another way for the decoys to work is to make sure they are slightly faster than the normal missiles, about 500km/s or so.  Over the kind of ranges you are having them release they will probably arrive in the same 5 second time frame as the attack missiles.

Brian

P.S.  Even if the AMM have a 2m km range, they usually only launch once the missiles are in range.  This means that there will be some flight time between when they launch and when they intercept your buss vehicle.  If they had a range of 2.5m km you would be in trouble.  You would also be  in trouble if they turn away from you as the closing speed will be almost zero.

[Soralin (OP)]

Hmm, yeah, I had something like that before, releasing at the same time, and having the decoys slightly faster, but I thought they would get separated too much for some reason.  But at 1.5m km, an 18100kps missile would reach a stationary target only about 1/2 a second earlier then an 18000kps missile, but it would still be closer to the ship at all times, hopefully making it more likely to be targeted.  That seems to work well if I can't trigger a release in less than a 5s increment.  Although it seems like this whole idea is heavily dependent on how much anti-missile defense they have, if I can't break through with a single salvo, then it isn't of much use.  I suppose I could swap out real drones for additional decoy drones if they have heavy anti-missile defenses.

[UnLimiTeD]

You know, the drones are nice and all, but what do you need to guard the entire inner system for?
If theres anything to be protected, the enemy can reach it, destroy it and loot the place in the time that your MIRVS require to the target.
He can send small escorts ahead to destroy the drones before separation, far away of the actual target.
And your Firerate is abysmal.
Maybe build them with half the payload, a size 25 drone?
Increases your firerate, missile speed, and you can pack more missiles per launch.

If you really need that long range defense, I would advise an other tactic:

Gunships.
Use small Missile Boats to deliver a boxed barrage of devastating medium range missiles and retreat back to Hangar.

Or if you really want to get fancy, lay Minefields.

[welchbloke]

You know, the drones are nice and all, but what do you need to guard the entire inner system for?
If theres anything to be protected, the enemy can reach it, destroy it and loot the place in the time that your MIRVS require to the target.
He can send small escorts ahead to destroy the drones before separation, far away of the actual target.
And your Firerate is abysmal.
Maybe build them with half the payload, a size 25 drone?
Increases your firerate, missile speed, and you can pack more missiles per launch.

This mught be a viable tactic but not at the tech level that they have been implemented.  Most of the races in my current game have battle line units that could outrun the drone.
But until Soralin has used them in combat it can be difficult to judge the utility of the design.

If you really need that long range defense, I would advise an other tactic:

Gunships.
Use small Missile Boats to deliver a boxed barrage of devastating medium range missiles and retreat back to Hangar.

Depending on how far out you want to defend you could use either FACs or fighters.  I've got to the stage in my game where I have both giving me a layered defence.

Or if you really want to get fancy, lay Minefields.

I've found that minefields are great in concept but unless you know that the enemy are going to turn up in a couple of years time they run out of endurance and you have wasted a bunch of resources for no return.  In my current game I have a bunch of captor mines stored on my homeworld, but I only have one minelayer   Can't imagine I'll be layer any enormous minefileds anytime soon.  Then again the reason I only have 1 minelayer is because there is no threat to my homeworld that I think my mobile units cannot deal with.

[UnLimiTeD]

Well, you can always design them as utility, 5 years endurance, ecm and armor, good passives, and a single missile for Anti-Fighter Defense.
Tells you when smeg is arriving, and rather cheap as well.

[Soralin (OP)]

Yeah, this is at a really low level of tech, I mean, for an example of what this level of tech could do on a ship:

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Forrestal class Cruiser    12400 tons     1416 Crew     1474.4 BP      TCS 248  TH 800  EM 0
3225 km/s     Armour 3-47     Shields 0-0     Sensors 10/11/0/0     Damage Control Rating 6     PPV 69
Annual Failure Rate: 205%    IFR: 2.8%    Maint Capacity 446 MSP    Max Repair 96 MSP    Est Time: 1.63 Years
Magazine 444    

Nuclear Pulse Engine E9 (20)    Power 40    Fuel Use 90%    Signature 40    Armour 0    Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 100,000 Litres    Range 16.1 billion km   (57 days at full power)

Size 1 Missile Launcher (5)    Missile Size 1    Rate of Fire 10
Size 8 Missile Launcher (8)    Missile Size 8    Rate of Fire 80
Missile Fire Control FC1-R1 (1)     Range 1.1m km    Resolution 1
Missile Fire Control FC52-R100 (1)     Range 52.8m km    Resolution 100
Size 1 Anti-missile Missile (84)  Speed: 16,700 km/s   End: 9.9m    Range: 10m km   WH: 1    Size: 1    TH: 111 / 66 / 33
Size 8 Anti-ship Missile (45)  Speed: 15,700 km/s   End: 28.6m    Range: 26.9m km   WH: 9    Size: 8    TH: 99 / 59 / 29

Active Search Sensor MR35-R100 (1)     GPS 3200     Range 35.2m km    Resolution 100
Active Search Sensor MR1-R1 (1)     GPS 96     Range 1.1m km    Resolution 1
Thermal Sensor TH2-10 (1)     Sensitivity 10     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  10m km
EM Detection Sensor EM1-11 (1)     Sensitivity 11     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  11m km

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s

This design is classed as a military vessel for maintenance purposesThe missiles and drones here don't even have ion engine levels of speed upgraded.  The ship is slower then the drones even, and about 1/2 the cost of the PDC, so I could get a whole 2 of them for the same cost, and with a smaller (and slower since they need more fuel) salvo of missiles, although at a bit faster rate of fire.  I suppose it would be better to go with smaller missiles here, although they'd have to be a bit bigger then what the drone can fire for the same damage, since they need more fuel.  Although they do have a longer range then the drones, since they can actually fly around, but they need to get a lot closer, and are more vulnerable and costly to replace than a pack of drones that are going to die anyway.  But in any case, it looks better to tech up more before even attempting much in the way of building defensive forces like this.

He can send small escorts ahead to destroy the drones before separation, far away of the actual target.

Hmm, related to this, if the drones had sensors on them, could I do something like turn off my missile base's active sensors for a few seconds, to get them to change targets to the closer ship trying to intercept them?  Although that might cause troubles with other drones that have been fired further back.

[Beersatron]

Yeah, this is at a really low level of tech, I mean, for an example of what this level of tech could do on a ship:

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Forrestal class Cruiser    12400 tons     1416 Crew     1474.4 BP      TCS 248  TH 800  EM 0
3225 km/s     Armour 3-47     Shields 0-0     Sensors 10/11/0/0     Damage Control Rating 6     PPV 69
Annual Failure Rate: 205%    IFR: 2.8%    Maint Capacity 446 MSP    Max Repair 96 MSP    Est Time: 1.63 Years
Magazine 444    

Nuclear Pulse Engine E9 (20)    Power 40    Fuel Use 90%    Signature 40    Armour 0    Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 100,000 Litres    Range 16.1 billion km   (57 days at full power)

Size 1 Missile Launcher (5)    Missile Size 1    Rate of Fire 10
Size 8 Missile Launcher (8)    Missile Size 8    Rate of Fire 80
Missile Fire Control FC1-R1 (1)     Range 1.1m km    Resolution 1
Missile Fire Control FC52-R100 (1)     Range 52.8m km    Resolution 100
Size 1 Anti-missile Missile (84)  Speed: 16,700 km/s   End: 9.9m    Range: 10m km   WH: 1    Size: 1    TH: 111 / 66 / 33
Size 8 Anti-ship Missile (45)  Speed: 15,700 km/s   End: 28.6m    Range: 26.9m km   WH: 9    Size: 8    TH: 99 / 59 / 29

Active Search Sensor MR35-R100 (1)     GPS 3200     Range 35.2m km    Resolution 100
Active Search Sensor MR1-R1 (1)     GPS 96     Range 1.1m km    Resolution 1
Thermal Sensor TH2-10 (1)     Sensitivity 10     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  10m km
EM Detection Sensor EM1-11 (1)     Sensitivity 11     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  11m km

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s

This design is classed as a military vessel for maintenance purposesThe missiles and drones here don't even have ion engine levels of speed upgraded.  The ship is slower then the drones even, and about 1/2 the cost of the PDC, so I could get a whole 2 of them for the same cost, and with a smaller (and slower since they need more fuel) salvo of missiles, although at a bit faster rate of fire.  I suppose it would be better to go with smaller missiles here, although they'd have to be a bit bigger then what the drone can fire for the same damage, since they need more fuel.  Although they do have a longer range then the drones, since they can actually fly around, but they need to get a lot closer, and are more vulnerable and costly to replace than a pack of drones that are going to die anyway.  But in any case, it looks better to tech up more before even attempting much in the way of building defensive forces like this.

He can send small escorts ahead to destroy the drones before separation, far away of the actual target.

Hmm, related to this, if the drones had sensors on them, could I do something like turn off my missile base's active sensors for a few seconds, to get them to change targets to the closer ship trying to intercept them?  Although that might cause troubles with other drones that have been fired further back.

If you decrease the range on your size1 missile then you will be able to increase the interception percentage by a considerable factor. 10m km missile tied into a 1.1m km Fire Control and Sensor will be wasteful.

I have never tried to flick the Sensors on/off before but I would imagine that it would cause all of them to loose track, they would then proceed to previous known location of target and search.