Change Log for 5.50 Discussion

[dooots]

That reminds me - (assuming it's not already) shouldn't internal systems have 2 different HTK - one for regular and one for mesons (just the base value....).

John

It seems the biggest reason to use internal armor is to stop mesons, if you remove that is it still useful for anything else?  Given how armor scales with size it seems like it is more efficient to just use normal armor.

I guess if you could get the HTK of enough objects high enough you could make it incredibly hard to take out a ship.  But I think only turrets can get a HTK high enough to pull that off.

[Brian Neumann]

It seems the biggest reason to use internal armor is to stop mesons, if you remove that is it still useful for anything else?  Given how armor scales with size it seems like it is more efficient to just use normal armor.

I guess if you could get the HTK of enough objects high enough you could make it incredibly hard to take out a ship.  But I think only turrets can get a HTK high enough to pull that off.

Magazines, Engines, Power plants and Turrets all can have extra armour added to them.  The main area that will be vulnerable will be the sensors which generally only have 1 htk regardless of size.  If you kill the sensors/fire control then the ship is helpless anyway.

Brian

[Charlie Beeler]

Magazines, Engines, Power plants and Turrets all can have extra armour added to them.  The main area that will be vulnerable will be the sensors which generally only have 1 htk regardless of size.  If you kill the sensors/fire control then the ship is helpless anyway.

Brian

To a certain extent also fuel tanks. 

As I understand it though, mesons also bypass this internal armor in the same manor as external armor.

[UnLimiTeD]

Mesons can't bypass additional HTK.
My Anti-Meson design, whenever I get that far on the tech tree (haven't played in a few months), I generally have a bunch of those.
Works versus Swarm, and works for Jump Point Assaults, when equipped with homing missiles (doesn't need sensors).

[backstab]

With the new Ground Unit research , I wonder if there is any chance of some more ground units ... maybe a Super Heavy Assault Battalion ??

[ExChairman]

I would like to see some benefits from better ship armour, in ground units.

[LoSboccacc]

Given how armor scales with size it seems like it is more efficient to just use normal armor.

aren't larger components more likely to be hit by internal damage? you can increase survivabilty by focusing on more likely to be hit components (in theory) 

[dooots]

I think it could work, but only because of how the AI fights not because it is a good idea.

First as Brian pointed out the sensors/fire controls will go down sooner or later.

Second if the ships run into anyone using large beam weapons or strong missiles the extra HTK from internal armor may actually be worse then having the same amount of space dedicated to unarmored components.  Currently for magazines you will get more total HTK from unarmored magazines then you will from armored ones.  I am guessing the same will hold true for the other components (well maybe not multi-weapon turrets).

[sloanjh (OP)]

Currently for magazines you will get more total HTK from unarmored magazines then you will from armored ones.

This is not the case.  I posted a long analysis of this somewhere (probably the academy) a month or so ago.  Armored magazines make a wonderful missile sponge, especially when you take the possibility of magazine explosions into account.

John

[dooots]

Ah yeah sorry about that, I had remembered that thread incorrectly.  The HTK was for small unarmored magazines vs larger unarmored magazines.

Hmm looking at one of my ship designs it looks like the DAC scales mostly with HTK I had assumed it was more HS based.  So a beam ship using the new quad turrets could make it very hard to hit the fire controls.  Well if damage is applied by rolling against the DAC anyways.

[Brian Neumann]

Ah yeah sorry about that, I had remembered that thread incorrectly.  The HTK was for small unarmored magazines vs larger unarmored magazines.

Hmm looking at one of my ship designs it looks like the DAC scales mostly with HTK I had assumed it was more HS based.  So a beam ship using the new quad turrets could make it very hard to hit the fire controls.  Well if damage is applied by rolling against the DAC anyways.

The counter to this is to have some HPM's along which will only damage the electronics of the target.  This would include all sensors, fire control, ecm/eccm, and survey sensors.  Currently I don't think that anything else qualifies.

Brian

[dooots]

Doh I take that back the DAC is HS based, I forgot the DAC does not include the armor and I think I looked at a triple turret when I was checking the size of the turret but the ship uses a quad turret.

Anyways 60% of DAC can still have internal armor and it is only a 7100 ton ship.  Also there is only a 6% chance to hit the fire controls.  If you go with a larger ship shooting for a 70-80% chance to hit high HTK components seems possible.  If fuel tanks get the same treatment then 65% of my ships DAC can be armored.

If nothing else making meson resistant ships should be fairly easy after everything gets updated.  I'm not sure that is a good thing.

[sloanjh (OP)]

If nothing else making meson resistant ships should be fairly easy after everything gets updated.  I'm not sure that is a good thing.

Um, my recollection from a long time ago (which could be wrong) is that mesons are supposed to ignore all armor, both internal and external.  The fact that they don't IIRC is a bug that was either there from the start or got put in during the armor switch.  Hence my statement about 2 different HTK - this was intended as "don't forget to fix the bug".

John

[dooots]

Um, my recollection from a long time ago (which could be wrong) is that mesons are supposed to ignore all armor, both internal and external.  The fact that they don't IIRC is a bug that was either there from the start or got put in during the armor switch.  Hence my statement about 2 different HTK - this was intended as "don't forget to fix the bug".

John

That is why I asked if internal armor is useful for anything else other then mesons.  If its not just get rid of internal armor.

It seems that you might be able to stack the DAC to make it useful on other weapons but I think you will still get more protection out of using the same amount of HS for external armor.

[Brian Neumann]

That is why I asked if internal armor is useful for anything else other then mesons.  If its not just get rid of internal armor.

It seems that you might be able to stack the DAC to make it useful on other weapons but I think you will still get more protection out of using the same amount of HS for external armor.

The point of armoring individual systems is to help prevent them from being killed by a shot that has just barely penetrated armor.  If you look at the example Steve gave, the quad turret went froma htk of 12 to 20.  If a 6 point laser got through armor then the chance of killing that turret goes from 1 in 3 to 3 in 13, or a drop of 10% from 33.3% to 23.1%.  In addition to this change if a heavier hit that exceeds the htk of the system gets through then the amount of damage that this 1 system absorbs goes from 12 to 20.  That big of a jump means that 1 - 2 other systems are not going to be damaged.  Overall the question becomes what is the difference between adding a couple of points of armor to the turret vs armoring the ship as a whole.  A lot depends on the specifics of the weapons being fired at you.  If it is mostly lasers, then having the extra internalls may be more important.  If is mesons then those extra internals are critical.  All of the rest have a broader damage pattern where the extra internals may mean less than having a couple of extra points of armor for the ship overall.

Brian