Author Topic: Newtonian Aurora  (Read 146892 times)

0 Members and 3 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Steve Walmsley (OP)

  • Aurora Designer
  • Star Marshal
  • S
  • Posts: 11695
  • Thanked: 20557 times
Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #60 on: September 04, 2011, 04:22:05 PM »
Given that this is a computer game, I'm curious why you think a flat rate would be more playable than just having the computer calculate the cost.  (Don't take this as a disagreement - I'm just wondering.)  It seems to me like most of the movement orders should be set up such that the player tells the computer where the fleet should be and when, and then the computer manages the course calculation.  And by "where and when" I really mean a whole host of conditions, such as "least time intercept", "least time zero-zero intercept", "lowest fuel zero-zero intercept within time deltaT", ....  The computer would then just use the appropriate formula.

One thing that will vastly change the interface/complexity: will the ships have enough fuel to do continuous max-burns for an interplanetary trip, or will they only be able to do a short burn then coast most of the way.  The second one is a lot more in line with the deltaV thing above - the first one means solving quadratic equations....

John

The simplification is really so that players can visualise how much time/effort is involved in a given course change without relying on difficult calculations. I do plan to have information available to the player for least time intercept, zero-zero intercept, etc. and the movement/intercept orders will be using estimated future positions for their destinations rather than current. I am just happier with a simple formula rather than one than can only be calculated by a computer. I could be possibly persuaded otherwise, based on whether the increased realism added more to the player experience, or if players would prefer to be able to quickly calculate course changes in their head.

I seriously doubt spacecraft will have enough fuel for continual max burns. I would guess the majority of time would be spent with engines off.

Steve
 

Offline Steve Walmsley (OP)

  • Aurora Designer
  • Star Marshal
  • S
  • Posts: 11695
  • Thanked: 20557 times
Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #61 on: September 04, 2011, 04:28:46 PM »
I just went and actually read closely Steve's initial post, and the rocket equation still applies even if it's a reactionless drive, if you define a equivalent exhaust velocity that I suspect is thrust/fuelBurnRateInMassPerTime.  So dV should be Veff*ln(M0/M1).  The fuel source, exhaust velocity, engine mass etc. can be abstracted into the engine mass fuel efficiency that Steve already has, if you define "fuel" as "power source + reaction mass, as appropriate".  One thing this brings up is that I'm assuming that the mass == volume simplification would be thrown out: mass should == volume - volumeOfFuelAlreadyBurned at the very least (unless the new inertia is volume-based rather than mass based due to some foible of a handwavonium reactionless engine).

When you design a ship it will have full load tonnage and standard tonnage. Standard is with nothing loaded and is equal to the full load tonnage minus cargo, colonists, fuel, ordnance and parasites. The mass of a ship for movement purposes is always based on the standard tonnage plus the mass of anything being carried, so as a ship uses fuel, launches missiles or fighters, etc. its mass will decrease and its acceleration rate will increase. Volume, which will be used for FTL drives, is equal to the full load tonnage and never changes.

Steve

 

Offline Steve Walmsley (OP)

  • Aurora Designer
  • Star Marshal
  • S
  • Posts: 11695
  • Thanked: 20557 times
Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #62 on: September 04, 2011, 04:30:48 PM »
Will Aurora II use these physics?

At the moment Aurora II will be based on normal Aurora, although I haven't touched it in months so it is a long way off; years rather than months. Newtonian Aurora is more of an experiment. The whole concept may not even work once I try it, but I am going to try anyway :)

Steve
 

Offline jseah

  • Captain
  • **********
  • j
  • Posts: 490
Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #63 on: September 04, 2011, 09:09:17 PM »
Any comment on the reaction mass / reactor fuel split?
 

Offline Echo35

  • Chief Petty Officer
  • ***
  • Posts: 30
Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #64 on: September 04, 2011, 11:04:18 PM »
Oops. I brought up AV:T and didn't even talk about it!

Anyway, the ships in the game have a particular DeltaV (Based on the mass of the ship and power of the engines, much like in Aurora) which can give them a certain amount of velocity change per game segment. A thrust of 1 (About 0.25G of velocity change) imparts enough momentum to accelerate the ship to a movement of one hex a turn, which is 20 kilometers over 128 seconds. Of course, being space, once that momentum is set, you don't need to keep the engines on until you want to change direction :P Rail gun shells and missiles scale off of this mechanic as well, doing more damage as the crossing vector to the target increases. Fast ships can punch a nice sized hole in the enemy, but of course, this consumes more fuel, as turning around for another pass will take a lot of momentum change to move you back. All of the fine math is based on the technology specific to the game, and of course, Aurora has it's own tech (The ships in AV:T use Fusion Torches, and the reactors output 63.5 MW, so it's fairly low in the tech tree compared to Aurora).

And of course, all the other fun stuff like heat that isn't in Aurora :)
". . . and that is why Sir Issac Newton is the deadliest son of a b*#ch in space!"
 

Offline Steve Walmsley (OP)

  • Aurora Designer
  • Star Marshal
  • S
  • Posts: 11695
  • Thanked: 20557 times
Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #65 on: September 05, 2011, 03:45:54 PM »
Any comment on the reaction mass / reactor fuel split?

It is unlikely I would go for that. I will just have an engine and fuel. I am trying to simplify where I can while retaining the type of decisions with which you would be faced in a Newtonian environment. It always comes down to complexity vs fun gameplay and trying to find the right balance. For each potential increase in complexity the question is how much would adding this complexity increase the fun. Having reaction mass and reactor fuel would add complexity but I don't think it would add a lot in terms of gameplay and decision making. That doesn't mean the idea of getting fuel from other sources couldn't be used however. Fuel sources are going to be a lot more important in this game and I will definitely be increasing the rate at which you can extract fuel from gas giants. Maybe there are other places you can get fuel fuel too.

Steve
 

Offline Brian Neumann

  • Vice Admiral
  • **********
  • Posts: 1214
  • Thanked: 3 times
Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #66 on: September 05, 2011, 05:32:25 PM »
Make all gas giants have fuel in them.  This will help a lot for finding fuel where you need it.  Currently I seem to get about 10% of gas giants with fuel.  At that percentage it would be easy to have an area with no fuel available.

Brian
 

Offline Thiosk

  • Commodore
  • **********
  • Posts: 784
  • Thanked: 1 times
Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #67 on: September 05, 2011, 09:21:36 PM »
Maybe there are other places you can get fuel fuel too.

Steve

Gas scoops when flying through nebulae perhaps?

Also: such scoops mounted on troop transports when flying through certain nebulae should increase morale by, well, a lot.
 

Offline waresky

  • Registered
  • Vice Admiral
  • **********
  • Posts: 1486
  • Thanked: 8 times
  • Alpine Mountaineer..ohh Yeah!
Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #68 on: September 06, 2011, 05:58:19 AM »
It is unlikely I would go for that. I will just have an engine and fuel. I am trying to simplify where I can while retaining the type of decisions with which you would be faced in a Newtonian environment. It always comes down to complexity vs fun gameplay and trying to find the right balance. For each potential increase in complexity the question is how much would adding this complexity increase the fun. Having reaction mass and reactor fuel would add complexity but I don't think it would add a lot in terms of gameplay and decision making. That doesn't mean the idea of getting fuel from other sources couldn't be used however. Fuel sources are going to be a lot more important in this game and I will definitely be increasing the rate at which you can extract fuel from gas giants. Maybe there are other places you can get fuel fuel too.

Steve

in Traveller and Megatraveller,the fuel Giant's operation in fuel scoop..for a Fleet become.."crucial" in Time of war..

Do u remember sure..

Gas Giant are carefully planned in a Fleet Jump route task
 

Offline UnLimiTeD

  • Vice Admiral
  • **********
  • U
  • Posts: 1108
  • Thanked: 1 times
Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #69 on: September 06, 2011, 06:58:27 AM »
I steadily grew a bigger smile while reading this, which survived through meetings and lunchbreak whenever I came back.
I commend your effort!
Even if it doesn't play out well, it's an interesting experiment.
I just love to ponder the possibilities.
How will the FTL work out?
I suppose if you get something for that, which is not entirely newtonian, the question is why is that not possible to be used in systems as well, a lot weaker?^^
 

Offline PTTG

  • Sub-Lieutenant
  • ******
  • Posts: 125
Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #70 on: September 06, 2011, 11:47:27 AM »
I for one would like to see more use for "real" materials.  Superdense Unobtanium that allows for electrical control of gravity is great, but it's hard to imagine a superdense material that would be stronger by weight than. . .  well, damp cardboard really.  The island of stability is really high up there, and some hidden island would be even worse.  Titanium and steel (or rather, alloys of those) will probably be used for the next few thousand years at least.

A fusion-moderating superdense element could be reasonable.  Perhaps it's some kind of fusion catalyst, which briefly fuses to two hydrogen atoms, then rapidly degrades to itself and a helium, spitting out heat and collectable particles.

Hey wait that actually sounds like it would work.  I'm going to go see if I can get a grant for this.
 

Offline Antagonist

  • Pulsar 4x Dev
  • Sub-Lieutenant
  • *
  • A
  • Posts: 124
Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #71 on: September 06, 2011, 07:58:14 PM »
Few comments.

First of all, if the effects of gravity is being ignored, isn't it possible for the effects of acceleration to be ignored or at least reduced?  I am thinking of an inertial drive, something that is in fact simpler than artificial gravity.  It is simply the ability for all objects in the ship to accelerate at the same time, as opposed to the hull accelerating and pushing on your body, which in turn accelerates it, but can kill it if it is too much.   A super-efficient chair strap.   You still need to be able to survive the gravity, but it'll be constant over your whole body and not crushing which helps lots, though this relies on artificial gravity.

This could possibly be a tech tree on its own, where without it you can only have a max delta-v of 5x-10x of your race's gravity tolerance, but with higher tech can be more.  (Or bred crew with higher g tolerance, different from usual engineering of population with lower g tolerance who colonise moons. )

Second thing I'd like to add is the concept of escape velocity and orbits.   Essentially to orbit (at ground level) earth, you are travelling at 11. 2 km/s.  If you leave earth all you have to do is be nudged out of orbit and you have already attained that speed, no need to accelerate from 1km/s.   Well, that's at ground level.  Wikipedia says the actual low earth orbit speed is at maximum 8. 2 km/s, but that can be calculated I am sure.

My suggestion is that when entering and leaving an orbit you only have to speed up from the source's orbit velocity and only brake to the destination's escape velocity.   This isn't that much difference for earth, but with Jupiter having an escape velocity of 59. 5 km/s it could add up, if ever so slightly, especially since this also invokes free course changes at this (low) speed.

Now what I am REALLY thinking is that the Sun's escape velocity is 619 km/s.   Starting at that speed on spotting an enemy could be a SIGNIFICANT advantage.   Course, you need to be far away enough from the Sun to not be toasted so that figure would be significantly slashed, but I can imagine a starting speed of 300 km/s already being a possible consideration for advanced races, esp for black hole systems which have even LARGER time dilated orbit speeds.

On time dialation, I'd like to see military ships travelling at relativistic speeds (or very near INTENSE gravity) having their maintainance clock slowed.   It is unlikely to often happen so would be a small check with usually a small effect, but it is just that extra touch of detail without adding extra micro-management that Aurora is famous for.   Might happen more often and be more relevant to inter-system travel which by necessity is FTL, if jump points aren't used.

On to accelerators.   You have mass drivers, why not a mass driver for a ship?  Imagine a launching platform with intense engines that can throw out fighters or even larger ships at 2000 km/s or more.   This could even be miles and miles long to allow less of a gravity delta, but would likely rely on inertial and gravity technology for anything manned.   Once you have accelerators though there is no reason you can't have them 'catch' too, reducing the delta-v needed for ships to leave and enter orbit(possibly at a fuel cost).  If this is something that like shipyards need to be built or tugged this will mean an advantage for any race acting in its 'home' system, though a critical piece of infrastructure to reduce the costs of running an empire.  I can even imagine engineless ships being flung intra-system, accelerated and decellarated only at the endpoints by these accelerators.

Now extending accelerators to missiles.  There's no reason for missiles to start at the same velocity as the ship, when the ship can offer a boosting thrust.   Since missiles are unmanned these accelerators can be shorter and more powerful than for ships.  This will directly affect the fuel needed for missiles and through that their range.   This will also mean that missile launchers on ships will have more tech variables than just reload speed and size and be something that actually needs to be updated with advancing technology.   Such missiles can potentially operate with no fuel at all, having only enough to maneuver and course correct as it approaches its target.   Also that the same missile launched with two different launchers can act VERY differently, either a powerful launcher with more range and less agility(harder to course correct a faster object) or a less powerful launcher with the reverse.   I am unsure whether this extra complications of an already complex missile design system is needed, but it follows naturally from the accelerators idea above.
 

Online Zed 6

  • Sub-Lieutenant
  • ******
  • Z
  • Posts: 128
  • Thanked: 4 times
Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #72 on: September 06, 2011, 08:37:13 PM »
The simplification is really so that players can visualise how much time/effort is involved in a given course change without relying on difficult calculations. I do plan to have information available to the player for least time intercept, zero-zero intercept, etc. and the movement/intercept orders will be using estimated future positions for their destinations rather than current. I am just happier with a simple formula rather than one than can only be calculated by a computer. I could be possibly persuaded otherwise, based on whether the increased realism added more to the player experience, or if players would prefer to be able to quickly calculate course changes in their head.

I seriously doubt spacecraft will have enough fuel for continual max burns. I would guess the majority of time would be spent with engines off.

Steve

I think the simple formula would be best. I really have doubts that this endeavor, while notable for seeing if it will actually work, will end up actually be more of a simulation than a game. I could be wrong and it may actually be fun. But I for one am not going to sit and calculate out intercepts for one Task Group let alone multiple ones as the empire grows. It's too easy to make a mistake and miss an intercept and it becomes trial and error. And frustrating.

Also what would happen when a Task Group runs out of fuel? Does it keep on going forever?
 

Offline Antagonist

  • Pulsar 4x Dev
  • Sub-Lieutenant
  • *
  • A
  • Posts: 124
Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #73 on: September 07, 2011, 01:50:14 AM »
Quote from: Zed 6 link=topic=4019. msg39496#msg39496 date=1315359433
I think the simple formula would be best.  I really have doubts that this endeavor, while notable for seeing if it will actually work, will end up actually be more of a simulation than a game.  I could be wrong and it may actually be fun.  But I for one am not going to sit and calculate out intercepts for one Task Group let alone multiple ones as the empire grows.  It's too easy to make a mistake and miss an intercept and it becomes trial and error.  And frustrating.

I would imagine that we would be able to 'lay courses' which would do our calculations for us, point at a destination and it'll tell us the fuel and time it will take to complete same as now.   Maybe even the ability to plot unbuilt designs with varying loads and burns?  This will allow us to be warned whether or not our new freighter design will actually be able to make it to the colony next system over or not.   This would of course need new UI elements that are not in the game just yet.

Quote from: Zed 6 link=topic=4019. msg39496#msg39496 date=1315359433
Also what would happen when a Task Group runs out of fuel? Does it keep on going forever?

Pretty much.   Rescue is still possible, but will require a pretty fast and maneuverable ship with high fuel capacity.
 

Offline waresky

  • Registered
  • Vice Admiral
  • **********
  • Posts: 1486
  • Thanked: 8 times
  • Alpine Mountaineer..ohh Yeah!
Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #74 on: September 07, 2011, 06:22:48 AM »
I would imagine that we would be able to 'lay courses' which would do our calculations for us, point at a destination and it'll tell us the fuel and time it will take to complete same as now.   Maybe even the ability to plot unbuilt designs with varying loads and burns?  This will allow us to be warned whether or not our new freighter design will actually be able to make it to the colony next system over or not.   This would of course need new UI elements that are not in the game just yet.

Pretty much.   Rescue is still possible, but will require a pretty fast and maneuverable ship with high fuel capacity.

And so.."Run Out of Fuel" situation become VERY bad situation:)
Age's Fleet disapears into void space..:)