Author Topic: Newtonian Aurora  (Read 146912 times)

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Offline wedgebert

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #180 on: October 03, 2011, 06:48:27 PM »
Few thoughts:

First, as to AI ships being more damaged from microwave weapons:  Wouldn't a crewed ship be just as vulnerable?  You knock out the computers on a spaceship and AI or crewed, you've just got a hunk of metal floating in space.

For weapons, at the kind of power you'd use for combat, lasers don't erode, they destroy.  That kind of energy being transfered into the target has similar effects to a bomb going off.  For example, a 100 megajoule laser (only 100x our current technology) delivered as a single pulse would be like detonating 25 kg of TNT.  See http://www.projectrho.com/rocket/spacegunconvent.php#id--Laser_Cannon.

EMP is an artifact of nukes exploding in the atmosphere, explosions in space wouldn't have that effect.

I'm not sure about microwaves as a weapon.  If you just emit them, the range is going to be awful and I'm pretty sure microwaves are easy to block (simple faraday cage).  If you focus them, you've got a microwave laser (maser) and you've just got a lower powered laser.

I'm looking forward to the upgraded (or should I say finished :) ) bomb pumped lasers.  One because I'm really picturing the Honor Harrington battles and two because they make a lot more sense.  Why risk that last 50,000 km of point defense when you can explode early?  It should also help with accuracy since you're not looking for a direct hit, just get in the vicinity and orient yourself properly before exploding.
 

Offline Antsan

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #181 on: October 03, 2011, 06:55:10 PM »
As to microwaves: In a book called something like "How to survive the robot rebellion" I read that microwaves have a similar effect on electronics as an EMP, only they aren't blocked by a Faraday Cage.  So it sounds reasonable to me, although I lack the physical basics.
 

Offline wedgebert

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #182 on: October 03, 2011, 07:17:07 PM »
As to microwaves: In a book called something like "How to survive the robot rebellion" I read that microwaves have a similar effect on electronics as an EMP, only they aren't blocked by a Faraday Cage.  So it sounds reasonable to me, although I lack the physical basics.

They are blocked by faraday cages, it's what keeps your microwave oven from leaking radiation into your kitchen.
 

Offline UnLimiTeD

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #183 on: October 04, 2011, 02:51:47 AM »
Which is kind of the point here, a tinfoil-thick sheet of metal apparently stops them completely.

As for Lasers, that's a good read. If 100 MJ is 100x the power we can use right now, that would in Aurora-terms be the equivalent to a very small missile with nuclear warhead, as 1/100000 of the Hiroshima Bomb would already be equivalent to 150 kg of TNT; unless nuclear warheads now become more expensive and stronger, which I'd support, don#t get me wrong.
Additionally, a very interesting point in that text is the frequency of pulse, and how it interacts with the behavior of the resulting shockwaves in the object.
Beams that deliver the entire energy in one brust could be lethal, but it's very hard to gather that energy at once, so that would probably be rather high tech (A good point to limit weapon size in early games, using more energy at once becomes less size efficient), and behave more like a long ranged plasma-carronade.
Which raises another question, could a ship emit particles, smoke, so to say, to decrease the impact energy of lasers by means of burning to plasma and dissipating the energy over a larger area of armor?
 

Offline Antagonist

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #184 on: October 04, 2011, 08:20:08 AM »
While it is true that strong magnetic fields CAN deflect charged particles or magnetically vulnerable materials, these would only work against say ion beams or kinetic weapons using magnetizable metals for instance.  Plastic or ceramic ammunition would pass right through, and since it is not the composition of the material that matters but rather the mass for kinetic kill weapons, these should still be effective.

For shielding I normally consider it to be a handwavium mass effect style potential shield, capable of robbing momentum from kinetic attacks and even laser light (maybe a combination of two or more different shielding technologies working together?).

As for armor that disintegrates under heat makes sense against laser weaponry.  These would give off superheated plasma AWAY from the hull WITHOUT spreading it over a larger part of the armor.

Regarding EMP and microwave weaponry, while microwave weaponry is effective against organics, it is MORE effective against sensitive electronics.  The electronics for ship control systems, target prediction and all that can be created simply and with resistance to interference far easier than the complex electronics needed for an AI.  For example, your AC would be less susceptible to an EMP than an unshielded CPU.  Both do their duty but one is just so much closer to the limits of what is physically possible that interferences can be that much more destructive.  A single voltage pulse through an AC electronics would likely do nothing, while on a CPU can destroy it.

As far as I am aware, your microwave is not shielded from microwaves with a Faraday cage, the door for instance is shielded by the fact that the holes in the grid is smaller than the microwave wavelength(1mm-1m).  That isn't to say that shielding isn't trivial.  Either way, we already have a researchable technology that can reduce the vulnerability of our sensors to microwave weaponry, makes sense that this would also be effective to shield AI cores.

Aurora microwave weaponry I consider a handwavium for any anti-sensor and anti-tech weaponry, including microwaves and directional EMP lasers(some kind of ion magnetic beam?  Monopole laser?).

Revisiting my on-off strategy for sensors, adding a delay in exchange for lower power use, I am reminded of two things...  First, a large amount of power in most systems is spent starting up devices.  My university for instance prefers to keep air-conditioners on rather than switching them on and off evenings and mornings due to the peak load being greatly increased when you start them up.  For this reason a 10 second on, 10 second off strategy for power saving won't save 50% of the power, though a 1 hour on 1 hour off might come close, though possibly in that case, 10 min on, 1 hour off would be even better.  Note though that a delay of even a second at these distances can be fatal in combat.  Your targetting is already lagged by 1 second at 300 000km due to the speed of light and your laser will only hit it in another 1 second, which is a 2 second delay at those ranges.  With an additional sensor delay of 1 second you potentially decrease your accuracy by 33%.  Same for missiles that are not equipped with their own sensors.  I would consider this power saving strategy viable for scouts where absolute real-time isn't needed, but it is quite simply not practical for combat.

I am still in favor of rock-paper-scissors gameplay.  Every advantage has a counter.  Even if we have to step away from reality just a tad to enhance gameplay.
 

Offline wedgebert

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #185 on: October 04, 2011, 11:01:57 AM »
As far as I am aware, your microwave is not shielded from microwaves with a Faraday cage, the door for instance is shielded by the fact that the holes in the grid is smaller than the microwave wavelength(1mm-1m). 

That's one way to design a Faraday cage :) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faraday_cage#Examples
 

Offline UnLimiTeD

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #186 on: October 04, 2011, 12:08:27 PM »
While it is true that strong magnetic fields CAN deflect charged particles or magnetically vulnerable materials, these would only work against say ion beams or kinetic weapons using magnetizable metals for instance. 
Considering that both Railguns and Gauss-Guns propel mass by a means of magnetism, it is very unlikely to see projectiles entirely non-magnetic.
 

Offline Brian Neumann

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #187 on: October 04, 2011, 01:37:51 PM »
Considering that both Railguns and Gauss-Guns propel mass by a means of magnetism, it is very unlikely to see projectiles entirely non-magnetic.
All it would take is a couple of guides that were pressed into the projectile.  Once the magnetic field was removed they could be spun off by centrifical force leaving an non magnetic slug.

Brian
 

Offline Antsan

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #188 on: October 04, 2011, 02:24:33 PM »
Quote from: Brian link=topic=4019. msg40753#msg40753 date=1317753471
All it would take is a couple of guides that were pressed into the projectile.   Once the magnetic field was removed they could be spun off by centrifical force leaving an non magnetic slug.

Brian
It's even easier: Instead of making the projectile itself magnetic, use a sledge.
 

Offline Mel Vixen

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #189 on: October 04, 2011, 02:36:10 PM »
That is what not educated people call a sabbot ;) . Anyway Magnetic fields against railgun slugs would have to be damn strong. Well the US army is developing a "pulse shield" - these things though need a damn huge amount of power (stored in big capacitors) to repel a relativly slow slug on a a short range. If you believe the telegraph.  

well theres still the "iron-curtain"

edit: or a sledge :P
« Last Edit: October 04, 2011, 02:51:52 PM by Heph »
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Offline Theeht

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #190 on: October 04, 2011, 05:15:28 PM »
Idea for balancing AI warships, they never suffer maintenance failures until they reach their Maintenance Life, and there is no self-repair, even for maintenance failures.   Also, rouge AIs in the conventional sense are kind of silly, but it would be cool if espionage teams could have a chance to subvert the AIs of any AI ships at the planet they are at.   Also, the "pulse shield" would be a good way of implementing more realistic shields, maybe it could be an earlier technology than the current force fields?
 

Offline Sheb

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #191 on: October 05, 2011, 04:35:04 AM »
Actually, since we're going the power grid way, why don't we give engines a power requirement and make them use electricity rather than fuel?
 

Offline UnLimiTeD

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #192 on: October 05, 2011, 06:22:44 AM »
How's that supposed to work?
Sure, an Anti-Matter-drive would be an option at some point, but aside that, something still has to come out the exhaust.
 

Offline chrislocke2000

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #193 on: October 05, 2011, 08:45:32 AM »
Was just thinking about the implications of all this for mines

In my last game I found some size 20 mines, loaded with 6 size 2 missiles to be very good at keeping warp points defended. Given the loss of warp points and the very limited range of the munitions in question it looks like the use of mines is going to change quite a lot.

The loss of warp points means that you can't just dump a couple and have the place covered. Perhaps you could instead, once you have done your grav surveys, have the marked likely entry points from nearby stars where you could then seed a number of mines? This might prove to be a pretty good counter to the stated drive by shootings - you enter real space at 100kks and slam into these things - ending your attack real quick.

Given the typically close range of mines for activation any launched missiles are going to have to have hugely inefficient engines to get them up to any sort of reasonable speed before hitting the target ship. Perhaps some different munition types are needed or a new mine system implemented.

One option may be the creation of mine fields:
Individual mines are now a lot smaller and perhaps are back to more classic explosives that release a ball of shrapnel. On the map you define and area to be covered and a density of mines to lay. Your mine layer then goes out and drops these mines. Area coverage would probably need to be pretty large!

Hostile ships then moving through the area would trigger the mines to explode and damage taken would be based on proximity to the field, density of the mine field, tech of the mine and the speed of the craft itself. Attacks would be resolved against all ships in a task group in the same area.

Thoughts?
 

Offline Antagonist

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #194 on: October 05, 2011, 09:17:33 AM »
Hmm, with the added customizability of drones and mines and missiles, will it be possible to instead of mines, launch inert missiles.  That is to say, they lay in space, till a hostile contact is detected, then fire their engines and engage.  Mines with engines as it were.

This could prove to be a situation where minefields could still be useful even if you do not know with absolute certainty where the enemy will be.  Pre-launching a large group of missiles in this way could one-up box launchers by a single ship being able to overcome a fleet's point defence, even if it needs plenty of preparation for it.

As for more typical mines... these can still be useful around planets and so as a large line of defence.  The enemy can destroy your ships and PDCs from beyond the range of the mines, but they WILL need to come close in order to land any troops.

Minefields with an 'area' could be interesting, but would need an incredible amount just to cover a 1mil km radius, nevermind 50 million or 100 million that would be actually useful.  Still, I remember this being in Stars! and being a valid tactic.  Without some way of making minefield areas working at 100 million km radiuses (without the current all exploding against the first contact thing) I don't see classical mines as useful other than invasion force landing denial.