Author Topic: Newtonian Aurora  (Read 147050 times)

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Offline Antsan

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #420 on: November 06, 2011, 03:57:06 PM »
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A jet engine doesn't rely on atmospheric molecules to go
*shudder* You are aware of conservation of momentum, yes?
So, then, without a mass going in the opposite direction, how do you accelerate *any* mass?
This is basic physics that even a non-physicist (like me) should be aware of.

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Take a que from starwars' tie-fighters
Star Wars is hardly a source for hard science fiction.
Even if a fighter would be designed that was able to attack and return, it would better be flown by a computer.
 

Offline Yonder

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #421 on: November 06, 2011, 03:58:36 PM »
This means I am going to track the projectile on the map like a missile so you can see its progress. It also means it might hit something else instead, including your own ships if you aren't careful about firing position (line of battle reborn?). If the processing overhead gets too high because of the number of projectiles I might look at this again.

Steve
I would take the estimated flight time of the projectile, and calculate the trajectory for some multiple of that (with a minimum calculation time for close in fighting) this would cover most of the cases that are remotely plausible for the projectile to hit something else, firing at a ship and hitting another ship in the squadron, firing at a ship and hitting a squadron right in front of it performing missile defense, firing at a new enemy missile salvo and hitting the firing ship behind the missiles, firing at ships leaving orbit to intercept you and hitting the planet behind them.

And of course all of the vice-versas for those scenarios.
 

Offline Steve Walmsley (OP)

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #422 on: November 06, 2011, 04:01:23 PM »
I would take the estimated flight time of the projectile, and calculate the trajectory for some multiple of that (with a minimum calculation time for close in fighting) this would cover most of the cases that are remotely plausible for the projectile to hit something else, firing at a ship and hitting another ship in the squadron, firing at a ship and hitting a squadron right in front of it performing missile defense, firing at a new enemy missile salvo and hitting the firing ship behind the missiles, firing at ships leaving orbit to intercept you and hitting the planet behind them.

And of course all of the vice-versas for those scenarios.

That sounds like a good idea. I was trying to decide when to eliminate a projectile without waiting until it left the system :)

Steve
 

Offline UnLimiTeD

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #423 on: November 06, 2011, 04:13:27 PM »
Crap, I was like totally ninja'd 3 times.
Edit: 4 times.

@byron:
I've calculated it several times, and posted it; guided railgun slug would be excessively more expensive and have a higher minimum size; Thus it is likely they are not used when they don't have to be used, planetary bombardment is one of those few occasions, I mean, if you can't hit a PLANET with a slug, chances are you won't be mentally able to construct a guided projectile.^^
 

Offline bean

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #424 on: November 06, 2011, 04:17:24 PM »
First, let me make one thing clear.  I'm not claiming that space fighters are completely impossible.  I can come up with a few scenarios that could justify their existance (even a manned version).  None of those scenarios are applicable here.
I'm claiming that they are completely impractical when judged by the following criteria.  What is the most effective way, in terms of both money and firepower, to destroy the target?
1. A jet engine doesn't rely on atmospheric molecules to go (except for the oxygen required for ignition) therefore it is just as effective, if not more so, in space.
Do you really believe this?  Do you have any clue as to how a jet engine works?  I'm guessing no, so look it up.  Please.

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2. Yes quite, hence wing thrusters which can counter-act the forward force of the engine when changing direction, it would be a bit sloppy but it would theoretically work.
Yes, it is possible to turn quickly.  As I recall, my original point is that a fighter is not that much more maneuverable then a larger ship.  It still stands.  What makes fighters possible today is that they work in a different fluid medium relative to ships.  Now ask yourself when what the last time you saw a real combat speedboat.  (I'm not referring to special ops stuff.  A warship the size of a speedboat.  And I do know about missile craft.  Note that only coastal navies use them.)

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3. Take a que from starwars' tie-fighters the cabin doesn't necessarily have to maintain some form of homeostasis if the pilot's suit can.
True.  Now spend a couple of days in a space suit, and tell me how it feels.  Not to mention that without a human, you have no acceleration limits and you can skip things like reactor shielding and all the stuff that helps the human interface with the fighter.  Most of the stuff they cut out of UAVs isn't the oxygen system.  It's the cockpit itself.

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Now for your statements on the practical uses of fighters: a fighter is a reusable weapon with alot more damage potential then missiles,
Really?  How much more damage potential?  To be blunt, why add another stage, and a heavy, expensive one at that.  Given that the definition of fighter includes "carried aboard a larger ship" why not instead spend the money on a missile ship and missiles?  You do save some money on reusability, but there are several problems.  First, a lot of the cost savings of fighters dry up when you take combat losses into account.  Yes, a fighter dropping a bomb is cheaper then using a cruise missile.  Provided you don't lose the fighter.  Second, fighters will tend to have low throw weights.  A missile ship of a given size/cost will be able to outpunch a carrier of the same size/cost's wing.  And this is space.  There's no such thing as maximum range.

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also fighters act as good defense ships, easily destroying when gathered en masse.
Could you explain this better?  It sound like "if you have enough fighters, you can destroy stuff easily".  The same is true of any warship.  We're comparing fighters to those other designs on a mass/cost basis.

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secondly if you designed a highly expensive and/or advanced engine you wouldn't use it on a measly fighter it would go to a stealth ship or something very important or experimental.
What?  You completely missed the point.  Let's say that we're using magnetic-confinement fusion, and the torches are very high-performance, but also have a fairly high minimum size and are expensive.  You simply can't put one on a missile.  However, the performance is too good to let it go, as the new drive renders chemfuel missiles useless.  So you strap a bunch of kinetics to a torch, and you have a lancer.  It's used like a fighter, because you have to try to bring the engine back, and the performance is good enough to justify that.  I'm not sure how to explain it any better.

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Also id like to added something someone said earlier in the topic, a fighter doesn't just stop at a ship and attack it, think of it like strafing runs every time it's ready to attack it makes a run.
Do you have any idea what we're talking about?  This is Newtonian Aurora.  By definition, multiple strafing runs are out.  Why?  Because they're far less efficient then one strafing run.  If you have a set amount of delta-V, it behooves you to use as much as you can at once.
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Offline bean

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #425 on: November 06, 2011, 04:30:22 PM »
To the various people who keep advocating unguided weapons for planetary bombardment:
Yes, it is possible to hit a planet from way out with an unguided weapon.  The question is why?  To do damage to a planet-sized target, you're looking at throwing asteroids.  Normal railgun rounds are going to be next to useless, unless you use them in the same mass as the previously-mentioned asteroid. 
So if you're going to do it, use nukes.  You could probably end civilization as we know it by nuking the biggest 10 cities on the planet with a few megatons each.  Drop those same 10 few megatons on random spots, and we just get mad.  (Presuming we have the tech to respond).  Trying to use unguided weapons on a planet is less efficient (provided you want to remove the occupants as a threat, not xenocide them) then doing so with guided weapons.

All I'm saying is that when you are shooting at a target that is 6378 km across and can't dodge out of the way, you don't need guided projectiles.
This is entirely true.  However, you will never be shooting at the earth as a whole.  At least not under the circumstances given.

I've calculated it several times, and posted it; guided railgun slug would be excessively more expensive and have a higher minimum size; Thus it is likely they are not used when they don't have to be used, planetary bombardment is one of those few occasions, I mean, if you can't hit a PLANET with a slug, chances are you won't be mentally able to construct a guided projectile.^^
I'm not so sure about excessively more expensive.  It will be more expensive, but if it costs 5x as much, and is 10x as effective (not to mention needing smaller magazines) then it's still worth it.  The only time unguided rounds will be used is when the kill radius is larger or similar in size to the CEP.  And that means you need a planet-sized kill radius.
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Offline jseah

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #426 on: November 06, 2011, 04:51:03 PM »
Normal railgun rounds are going to be next to useless, unless you use them in the same mass as the previously-mentioned asteroid. 
Well, unless guided rounds get cold gas for drives, they're going to be visible.  More visible at least. 

They just have to be "beneath notice" until they hit the atmosphere.  At which point, given they are travelling at a few kkm/s, it's too late. 
 

Offline scoopdjm

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #427 on: November 06, 2011, 05:00:49 PM »
First, let me make one thing clear.  I'm not claiming that space fighters are completely impossible.  I can come up with a few scenarios that could justify their existance (even a manned version).  None of those scenarios are applicable here.
I'm claiming that they are completely impractical when judged by the following criteria.  What is the most effective way, in terms of both money and firepower, to destroy the target?Do you really believe this?  Do you have any clue as to how a jet engine works?  I'm guessing no, so look it up.  Please.
Yes, it is possible to turn quickly.  As I recall, my original point is that a fighter is not that much more maneuverable then a larger ship.  It still stands.  What makes fighters possible today is that they work in a different fluid medium relative to ships.  Now ask yourself when what the last time you saw a real combat speedboat.  (I'm not referring to special ops stuff.  A warship the size of a speedboat.  And I do know about missile craft.  Note that only coastal navies use them.)
True.  Now spend a couple of days in a space suit, and tell me how it feels.  Not to mention that without a human, you have no acceleration limits and you can skip things like reactor shielding and all the stuff that helps the human interface with the fighter.  Most of the stuff they cut out of UAVs isn't the oxygen system.  It's the cockpit itself.
Really?  How much more damage potential?  To be blunt, why add another stage, and a heavy, expensive one at that.  Given that the definition of fighter includes "carried aboard a larger ship" why not instead spend the money on a missile ship and missiles?  You do save some money on reusability, but there are several problems.  First, a lot of the cost savings of fighters dry up when you take combat losses into account.  Yes, a fighter dropping a bomb is cheaper then using a cruise missile.  Provided you don't lose the fighter.  Second, fighters will tend to have low throw weights.  A missile ship of a given size/cost will be able to outpunch a carrier of the same size/cost's wing.  And this is space.  There's no such thing as maximum range.
Could you explain this better?  It sound like "if you have enough fighters, you can destroy stuff easily".  The same is true of any warship.  We're comparing fighters to those other designs on a mass/cost basis.
What?  You completely missed the point.  Let's say that we're using magnetic-confinement fusion, and the torches are very high-performance, but also have a fairly high minimum size and are expensive.  You simply can't put one on a missile.  However, the performance is too good to let it go, as the new drive renders chemfuel missiles useless.  So you strap a bunch of kinetics to a torch, and you have a lancer.  It's used like a fighter, because you have to try to bring the engine back, and the performance is good enough to justify that.  I'm not sure how to explain it any better.
Do you have any idea what we're talking about?  This is Newtonian Aurora.  By definition, multiple strafing runs are out.  Why?  Because they're far less efficient then one strafing run.  If you have a set amount of delta-V, it behooves you to use as much as you can at once.


1. you're right
2. you're right
3. why would pilots spend 3 days in a spacesuit? if it was a long-rane exploratory fighter or something or other it would be designed wth that in mind.
4. Basically over time and as technology advances a fighter would be able to care more munitions than a single rocket.
5. basically fighters are a cheap area defense craft easily based at pdc's
6. once again, you're right, I guess i misinterpreted the statement
7. I didn't necessarily mean more than one run per payload, I was stating how the attack happened. I believe someone stated that a fighter works by going to within firing range of a ships, firing, then going back.

also sorry for giving short answers my pc is acting up again.
also should this whole fighter subject have its own topic?
finally, even if fighters aren't 'practical' will they be possible in newtonian aurora?
 

Offline bean

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #428 on: November 06, 2011, 06:37:30 PM »
Well, unless guided rounds get cold gas for drives, they're going to be visible.  More visible at least. 

They just have to be "beneath notice" until they hit the atmosphere.  At which point, given they are travelling at a few kkm/s, it's too late. 
Um, if they go into atmo at that speed, they explode harmlessly.  An object entering at 100 km/s ablates at 200m/s.  I shudder to think about what 1000km/s will do.
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Offline Mel Vixen

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #429 on: November 07, 2011, 01:56:07 AM »
Well aiming at planets with railguns makes sense when the planet has stuff that orbits it. I for once would like to have railgun-armed satelites up there. Altought the orbiting code would have to be rewritten. Shipyards, terraformers, massdrivers (last line of defense?) and Observatories come also to mind.
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Offline jseah

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #430 on: November 07, 2011, 02:11:19 AM »
Um, if they go into atmo at that speed, they explode harmlessly.  An object entering at 100 km/s ablates at 200m/s.  I shudder to think about what 1000km/s will do.
They have handwavium heat shields.  Duranium armour is what... 1 inch thick?  And it can survive a size 1 contact nuke (2.5ton TN warhead) to protect whatever is behind it. 
 

Offline UnLimiTeD

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #431 on: November 07, 2011, 04:38:34 AM »
I'm not so sure about excessively more expensive.  It will be more expensive, but if it costs 5x as much, and is 10x as effective (not to mention needing smaller magazines) then it's still worth it.  The only time unguided rounds will be used is when the kill radius is larger or similar in size to the CEP.  And that means you need a planet-sized kill radius.
From a few pages back:
Cost of a Sidewinder Missile: ~85k $. Cost of a 80kg chunk of pure Iron: roughly 6k $ (actually a bit less). Foolproof radarguidance seekers are quite probebly 10x the cost of an old IR missile.
Now, let's ignore what else I wrote there and do a proper calculation:
The price of the "Missile" is dependent on several factors of technological advance:
1. It's a bit cheaper due to replacing the explosive with solid metal.
2. The electronics are going to be a LOT more sophisticated, and expensive, as we'll need to miniaturize them; 85kg is too big.
3. Fuel efficiency can be expected to go up drastically, so more space for the above.
Let's assume for now that all of the above +material savings cancel each other out, so the missile would still be around 80k$

4. We need to develop a suitable electromagnetic shielding to prevent the insane Electric field of a Railgun able to accelerate an 8kg projectile to 50+kps in a timeframe measured in nanoseconds.
While this will be food for thought, let's still assume it adds nothing to the cost AND still allows the projectile to actually track anything.
5. With technological advance, production might get streamlined (though we're already basing this off a missile in production for over 50 years), let's reduce the assumed cost by another fourth, which would be roughly 60k $.

After expending it's fuel, the projectile will very likely still have more than 7500 grams of impact weight, a bit less than a solid slug, which would probably be a bit more dense and thus the same railgun could fire a heavier unguided slug, but I'm not too sure about the mechanics, so I'll ignore this altogether, correct me if I make wrong assumptions.

Now, I compare this guided projectile to a simple 8kg slug of iron, or let's use one of the handwavium materials, and assume it's a bit more expensive, like, exactly 600$ for 8 kg (yes, I bend the numbers a bit for easier calculation, but so far not in my favor as far as I can see).

In direct comparison, we can now assume that a guided slug is roughly 100x more expensive than an unguided projectile.


Don't get me wrong here, please, I still think that this would absolutely be worth it, even if it's just 10x more efficient, the higher killspeed and reliability would indeed be worth it in a fleet battle, and one can assume that a single railgun of that size would cost upwards of 10 Millions, maybe more in the range of 50.

However, there's two other paths the thread:
First, for planetary bombardment, I can see that commanders would avoid what essentially amounts to shooting money at the enemy.
Second, the biggest cost factor, and at that calibre also a significant size and low firerate, would be the railgun.
The War Ministry could probably save a lot by building a ship roughly half the size, let it accelerate for a day, and instead fire those projectiles from box launchers;
Which offers the additional benefits of less size restrictions, and less required electronic shielding on the projectile.

I'm not advocating against guided rounds, I'm advocating against railguns for dispensing them in medium range battles.


Other stuff:
@jseah:
Look thorugh this thread for the new armor and nuke mechanic.
Armor will be 1 cm/ layer now, and a 1 ton contact nuke would probably evaporate a capital ship.

Though I'm really looking forward to realistic atmospheric mechanics; While this will mean more weapons can do harm in an earth atmosphere, it will probably also mean that against thinner atmosphere, those weapons will do less;
Also, do planets have a proper size, now that ranges seem to calculated in meters instead of 10000 km?^^
 

Offline bean

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #432 on: November 07, 2011, 07:31:38 AM »
Well aiming at planets with railguns makes sense when the planet has stuff that orbits it. I for once would like to have railgun-armed satelites up there. Altought the orbiting code would have to be rewritten. Shipyards, terraformers, massdrivers (last line of defense?) and Observatories come also to mind.
But they are not the size of a planet.  You will target those separately.  Again, unguided weapons will only be used when the CEP is of the same order of magnitude as the lethal radius.  I still have nothing short of asteroids/nukes where that is remotely true.

They have handwavium heat shields.  Duranium armour is what... 1 inch thick?  And it can survive a size 1 contact nuke (2.5ton TN warhead) to protect whatever is behind it. 
These are of almost the same order of magnitude (I'll look it up later).  And those mechanics have changed.

UnLimiTeD:
I'm thinking of the most basic IR guidance system possible, working on CBDR principles.  If you design the thing from the start for mass production, and build it cheap, I think your costing is quite high, at least by a factor of 5 or so.  That's just a guess, however. 
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Offline UnLimiTeD

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #433 on: November 07, 2011, 07:48:27 AM »
As said, an AIM-9 Missile costs over 80k $, and those have been in massproduction for over 50 years now; I can't believe they could be produced much cheaper and no one has done it by now.
Such a thermal guidance can be shut down by a single flare, those simple systems are nearly useless in modern aerial warfare, if every opponent was on todays tech level.
I mean, those are over 50 year old tracking systems, and we'd have to get that simple technology down in size by a factor of 10, and shield them against several mj of electrical current; I don't get how it could get any cheaper.
A GUIDED round would be a lot cheaper, yes. But that also gives your opponent a valid target id, and requires an active firecontrol to keep connection with the projectile, which results in limited range.
Why not just omit the railgun?
Sure, less power, but also drastically cheaper, and around 10x the salvo size. For stationary targets, it's as good as it gets. Hell, you could empty your toilet in that direction.
 

Offline Mel Vixen

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #434 on: November 07, 2011, 08:15:15 AM »
You can build these weapons cheaper. It does not make sense though because research and re-eqiment costs would be massive. The machines, computers heck it even goes down to the weapon-platforms like the older Phantoms and harriers would have to be changed. Its more a case of "never change a running system". Take a completly new IR sensor, sure it has more range has a better resolution etc. but it has tradeoffs and these even if they are small can be substantial. This new sensor might need a different current so you change the board layout to get that. The new power-lines and the size/weighting difference of the chip need you to recalculate the weight-profile of the rocket, half the algorithms might be changed so your rocket still hits. Furthermore the software might be incompatible, the higher resolution of the sensor might not even bring a benefit if your cpu cant handle its precision. I could go on.

Another thing is that you to mass-produce order in Bulk. Or atleast that is how it was done 50 years ago. This has the advantage that you may have stocked 3 Million IR sensors. same goes for other parts. And since they did cost you money you build as many weapons as possible from them. A dollar in the hand is still better then a dollar wasted on recycling. As long as people buy your bombs.

And the bulk of the money goes iirc anyway into the explosives and the fuel.

Every modern lowclass car has more and better tech and manufacturing behind hit then your 80K missile but in the end it makes no difference.
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