Author Topic: Newtonian Aurora  (Read 146952 times)

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Offline bean

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #435 on: November 07, 2011, 09:59:51 AM »
As said, an AIM-9 Missile costs over 80k $, and those have been in massproduction for over 50 years now; I can't believe they could be produced much cheaper and no one has done it by now.
That depends on the magnitude of the production.  The AIM-9X seemed to be at about 600/year.  Given that 600 rounds might be a single ship's load, you would be producing a lot more.  And length of production has very little to do with it, as most upgrades reset the clock on it.

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Such a thermal guidance can be shut down by a single flare, those simple systems are nearly useless in modern aerial warfare, if every opponent was on todays tech level.
I mean, those are over 50 year old tracking systems, and we'd have to get that simple technology down in size by a factor of 10, and shield them against several mj of electrical current; I don't get how it could get any cheaper.
The 50s version, yes.  The modern version, not so much.  I perhaps oversimplified it.  However, I don't see the system taking anything more then today's sidewinder, and we're looking at decades if not centuries of improvements in computers.  I'd estimate the guidance system at less then $1000.  As for the rest of the stuff, it's pretty much a tank of gas, some tubing, and some valves.  Shielding would cost, but Faraday cages are quite effective.

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A GUIDED round would be a lot cheaper, yes. But that also gives your opponent a valid target id, and requires an active firecontrol to keep connection with the projectile, which results in limited range.
True.  But for medium-short ranges, it might be quite effective.

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Why not just omit the railgun?
Sure, less power, but also drastically cheaper, and around 10x the salvo size. For stationary targets, it's as good as it gets. Hell, you could empty your toilet in that direction.
I'd think you might want a little bit of delta-V.  Getting your ship pointed just so would be a pain.
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Offline Steve Walmsley (OP)

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #436 on: November 07, 2011, 01:17:16 PM »
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Do you really believe this?  
Do you have any clue as to how a jet engine works?  
Do you have any idea what we're talking about?

While the above is extremely mild by the standards of most internet forums :), for the Aurora forums this might be construed as getting slightly personal. Lets keep everything perfectly civil, even if you believe someone doesn't understand some of the principles involved in the discussion.

Steve
 

Offline Yonder

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #437 on: November 07, 2011, 02:23:34 PM »
To the various people who keep advocating unguided weapons for planetary bombardment:
Yes, it is possible to hit a planet from way out with an unguided weapon.  The question is why?  To do damage to a planet-sized target, you're looking at throwing asteroids.  Normal railgun rounds are going to be next to useless, unless you use them in the same mass as the previously-mentioned asteroid. 
So if you're going to do it, use nukes.  You could probably end civilization as we know it by nuking the biggest 10 cities on the planet with a few megatons each.

Pretty much this entire post confuses me. When you talk about "doing damage to a planet sized target" it makes me think that you are talking about actually breaking the planet into a bunch of pieces Death Star style. We are just talking about making the biosphere unlivable for the current unpleasant occupants.

You compare normal railgun rounds to asteroids, and describe railgun rounds as "completely useless", however the typical railgun slug we have been talking about has been 1 kg, and a sizable--but not enormous-- asteroid could mass 200 million times that much. Maybe we can explore projectiles in between those two extremes?

The jump from here to choosing nuclear explosions as your weapon of choice is odd, the fact that you speak of "a few megatons" as something catastrophically powerful that would end civilization with a couple applications is just weird when juxtaposed with your dismissal of gigaton kinetic impacts in the paragraph before.

As an example if you take the impact effects site posted Elouda posted ( http://impact.ese.ic.ac.uk/ImpactEffects/ ). If we plug in a 10.6 meter diameter iron meter going 15,000 km/s (I keep using that speed because it is a very comfortable attack speed for the low-tech example destroyer Daring) we get a projectile that masses 5 tons, equivalent to a size-2 missile. According to the site this projectile explodes as a 60 Gigaton airburst. Also according to this site this will pretty much demolish any building and kill most people within 100 km, but it will continue doing damage out past that.

Now lets talk more about this site, I read the included research paper so that I could understand why the results it was giving me didn't seem destructive enough. We go beyond the bounds of what these equations can do in a couple of ways. The big one is that all of the equations for how strong projectiles are and how easily they break up are based off of meteors. Even iron meteors aren't going to be as strong as machined iron, there are going to be all sorts of imperfections in these naturally occurring objects that cause them to break apart faster than a slug of manufactured Iron, let alone manufactured Steel, or Tungsten, or Uranium, or Duranium. (Protip, in the paper they state that the relationship between density and structural strength they use comes from these meteors, they say that it is only accurate for up to the 8000 kg/m3 iron density, so plugging in Tungsten densities (19300) or other materials won't be accurate).

Obviously a railgun slug would be much more durable than a meteorite, especially one made out of TN materials, so it would start breaking up far later than calculated by this site. The next problem is that they don't model anything after the airburst. Roughly half of the energy of an incoming object is expelled by the airburst, in a more typical collision, (for example our 5 ton iron meteorite at 50km/s) the remaining portion of the energy is only .6 Megatons of explosives, a fairly useless amount of energy when you are spreading it over 7-8 km drop zone. However when you are talking about a 15000 km/s entry you can no longer just ignore that energy, it's another 60 Gigatons in the strewn field, at that point all of the fireball effects are still going to occur, however at the site it doesn't model any impact or fireball effects if there is an airburst.

So that site gives a 5000 ton projectile a 60 Gigaton explosion, and there are many ways in which that's an extremely conservative estimate. I don't understand why sending a similar 5000 ton projectile to impart a 10 megaton explosion is a more desirable alternative.
 

Offline bean

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #438 on: November 07, 2011, 03:35:06 PM »
Pretty much this entire post confuses me. When you talk about "doing damage to a planet sized target" it makes me think that you are talking about actually breaking the planet into a bunch of pieces Death Star style. We are just talking about making the biosphere unlivable for the current unpleasant occupants.
I understand that, and if that really is your goal, that is fine.  However, ecocide is kind of extreme.  I will admit that it can be done with less mass then I believed, but it's still the only practical use of this technique.

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The jump from here to choosing nuclear explosions as your weapon of choice is odd, the fact that you speak of "a few megatons" as something catastrophically powerful that would end civilization with a couple applications is just weird when juxtaposed with your dismissal of gigaton kinetic impacts in the paragraph before.
What I said was that putting a few megatons on Earth's major cities would probably end civilization, while normal railgun rounds (which are going to be high-atmosphere kiloton to megaton range airbursts) are not going to do much.  Even the below-mentioned calculation would be pretty much pointless if it hit something like 80-85% of Earth's surface.  Over water, it might sink a few boats, but given breakup at 20 kilometers, I don't even know how much tidal wave there would be.  If it hits a desert, there would be bad climatic effects, but no mass death.  It works a lot better if it detonates over New York.

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As an example if you take the impact effects site posted Elouda posted ( http://impact.ese.ic.ac.uk/ImpactEffects/ ). If we plug in a 10.6 meter diameter iron meter going 15,000 km/s (I keep using that speed because it is a very comfortable attack speed for the low-tech example destroyer Daring) we get a projectile that masses 5 tons, equivalent to a size-2 missile. According to the site this projectile explodes as a 60 Gigaton airburst. Also according to this site this will pretty much demolish any building and kill most people within 100 km, but it will continue doing damage out past that.
It will not kill most people.  5psi is a good estimate for destroying buildings.  I duplicated this, and got 17 psi.  That is nowhere near lethal.  It would destroy the area, but everyone would not be dead.

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Now lets talk more about this site, I read the included research paper so that I could understand why the results it was giving me didn't seem destructive enough. We go beyond the bounds of what these equations can do in a couple of ways. The big one is that all of the equations for how strong projectiles are and how easily they break up are based off of meteors. Even iron meteors aren't going to be as strong as machined iron, there are going to be all sorts of imperfections in these naturally occurring objects that cause them to break apart faster than a slug of manufactured Iron, let alone manufactured Steel, or Tungsten, or Uranium, or Duranium. (Protip, in the paper they state that the relationship between density and structural strength they use comes from these meteors, they say that it is only accurate for up to the 8000 kg/m3 iron density, so plugging in Tungsten densities (19300) or other materials won't be accurate).

Obviously a railgun slug would be much more durable than a meteorite, especially one made out of TN materials, so it would start breaking up far later than calculated by this site. The next problem is that they don't model anything after the airburst. Roughly half of the energy of an incoming object is expelled by the airburst, in a more typical collision, (for example our 5 ton iron meteorite at 50km/s) the remaining portion of the energy is only .6 Megatons of explosives, a fairly useless amount of energy when you are spreading it over 7-8 km drop zone. However when you are talking about a 15000 km/s entry you can no longer just ignore that energy, it's another 60 Gigatons in the strewn field, at that point all of the fireball effects are still going to occur, however at the site it doesn't model any impact or fireball effects if there is an airburst.

So that site gives a 5000 ton projectile a 60 Gigaton explosion, and there are many ways in which that's an extremely conservative estimate. I don't understand why sending a similar 5000 ton projectile to impart a 10 megaton explosion is a more desirable alternative.
I really question if a site like that can properly model what is going on.  The calculator in question is designed to model asteroid impacts, which, IIRC are generally below 50 km/s.  It is not built to deal with an object entering the atmosphere at .05 C.  From what I understand (http://www.rocketpunk-manifesto.com/2010/09/space-warfare-xii-surface-warfare.html?showComment=1286896414619#c7359830619437874742) an object entering at 100 km/s will have about 240 m ablated before it hits the ground.  Assuming it doesn't break up.  I have no idea how something at 15,000 km/s behaves, but it isn't going to be "an asteroid at 50 km/s but a lot faster".

While the above is extremely mild by the standards of most internet forums :), for the Aurora forums this might be construed as getting slightly personal. Lets keep everything perfectly civil, even if you believe someone doesn't understand some of the principles involved in the discussion.

Steve

My apologies.  I could not believe that someone thought a jet engine was reactionless. 
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Offline scoopdjm

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #439 on: November 08, 2011, 11:26:17 AM »
*sigh* I won't continue past this but I did not believe that, I thought that a jet engine did not require anything past oxygen for ignition, I took our advice and looked it up, obviously I was wrong and I apologize for responding without knowledge, but regardless my point was that a capable space fighter engine could be built.
 

Offline Vanigo

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #440 on: November 09, 2011, 01:03:59 AM »
Completely different question, and I don't know if it's come up in the thread already: Are NPRs still going to have infinite fuel in this? It's not that big a deal in normal Aurora, but it seems like a gamebreaking advantage here. Of course, the combat AI will probably be even more exploitable than it is now, but I don't think forcing the player to use AI exploits to stay competitive is a good idea.
 

Offline Steve Walmsley (OP)

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #441 on: November 09, 2011, 04:47:28 AM »
Completely different question, and I don't know if it's come up in the thread already: Are NPRs still going to have infinite fuel in this? It's not that big a deal in normal Aurora, but it seems like a gamebreaking advantage here. Of course, the combat AI will probably be even more exploitable than it is now, but I don't think forcing the player to use AI exploits to stay competitive is a good idea.

The AI will be keeping track of fuel. Otherwise, as you say, they would have a completely unrealistic advantage.

Steve
 

Offline Steve Walmsley (OP)

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #442 on: November 09, 2011, 12:34:03 PM »
Cross-post from the fighters thread:

Yonder has pointed out that the engines in Newtonian Aurora are so efficient their exhaust velocity exceeds the speed of light. The reason that this issue has arisen was that I was using standard Aurora as a baseline for likely speeds when instead I should have been looking at the physics involved from scratch. After further reflection, it occured to me that if I restricted the game to exhaust velocities below the speed of light, which is only reasonable in a game where realistic physics are supposed to be important :), it would actually slow everything down without having to change engine thrust. This is relatively straightforward as I just need to change the fuel efficiency tech line and adjust accordinly. I have therefore ensured that the most efficient possible engine at max tech level does not have an exhaust velocity beyond that of light speed and have worked backwards from there.

Fuel consumption has increased by 10x at low tech levels and 15-20x at higher tech levels (compared to before). Which means for the same amount of fuel a ship's Delta-V budget has dropped by 90%. Obviously, this will have a significant impact on the game. It also solves some of the issues around very high speed kinetic impacts (which were devastating because I was breaking the laws of physics in terms of how easily ships could achieve very high speeds :))

Steve
 

Offline Steve Walmsley (OP)

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #443 on: November 09, 2011, 01:12:08 PM »
Cross-post from the fighters thread:

Yonder has pointed out that the engines in Newtonian Aurora are so efficient their exhaust velocity exceeds the speed of light. The reason that this issue has arisen was that I was using standard Aurora as a baseline for likely speeds when instead I should have been looking at the physics involved from scratch. After further reflection, it occured to me that if I restricted the game to exhaust velocities below the speed of light, which is only reasonable in a game where realistic physics are supposed to be important :), it would actually slow everything down without having to change engine thrust. This is relatively straightforward as I just need to change the fuel efficiency tech line and adjust accordinly. I have therefore ensured that the most efficient possible engine at max tech level does not have an exhaust velocity beyond that of light speed and have worked backwards from there.

Fuel consumption has increased by 10x at low tech levels and 15-20x at higher tech levels (compared to before). Which means for the same amount of fuel a ship's Delta-V budget has dropped by 90%. Obviously, this will have a significant impact on the game. It also solves some of the issues around very high speed kinetic impacts (which were devastating because I was breaking the laws of physics in terms of how easily ships could achieve very high speeds :))

Steve

Due to this change I have increased FTL speed multipliers by 5x on the basis that overall speeds will be much lower. I have also slowed research and shipbuilding a little as expansion is going to take a lot longer than before. I'll probably make some other economic changes as well to simulate the slower overall growth compared to standard Aurora

Steve
 

Offline UnLimiTeD

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #444 on: November 09, 2011, 01:20:26 PM »
I think I'm going to miss In-System Hyperdrives. ::)
But that'll certainly improve combat.
 

Offline Yonder

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #445 on: November 09, 2011, 01:21:59 PM »
Is the fuel power/efficiency algorithm going to remain the same?
 

Offline Steve Walmsley (OP)

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #446 on: November 09, 2011, 01:25:56 PM »
Is the fuel power/efficiency algorithm going to remain the same?

Yes, that will remain the same. I have started replacing the term "Base Fuel Efficiency" with "Fuel Consumption per MN per hour". They are both the same thing but the latter is more descriptive.

Steve
 

Offline chrislocke2000

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #447 on: November 09, 2011, 01:33:29 PM »
That is going to change things quite a lot!

Would it be worth having a look at engineering spaces and ship endurance as well. I can see a need for ships to be able to go longer between refits with these changes.

So I take it this will also significantly slow down missiles and make slug throwers and lasers even more balanced
 

Offline Steve Walmsley (OP)

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #448 on: November 09, 2011, 01:39:37 PM »
That is going to change things quite a lot!

Would it be worth having a look at engineering spaces and ship endurance as well. I can see a need for ships to be able to go longer between refits with these changes.

So I take it this will also significantly slow down missiles and make slug throwers and lasers even more balanced

It may not slow missiles down as much as you might think. Mainly because acceleration rates haven't changed and missiles will be used at relatively short distances (compared to the distances that ships will travel) so while it will limit the top speed of missiles overall, it may not limit them very much within likely engagement ranges because they were unlikely to reach their theoretical top speed anyway, unless used at extreme range.

Slug throwers and lasers will certainly be more effective overall though because average ship speeds will drop dramatically, making them far easier to hit.

Steve
 

Offline UnLimiTeD

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #449 on: November 09, 2011, 02:15:37 PM »
But in turn take less damage from kinetic projectiles.
Any plans on having a Fuel compression tech line?^^