Author Topic: Newtonian Aurora  (Read 146987 times)

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Offline procyon

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #495 on: November 22, 2011, 04:21:29 AM »
Finally plowed through the 30+ pages of this and the other 6 of the fighter thread.

I have enjoyed reading this and look forward to this becoming a reality. (Pun intended)

Keeping handwavium to only a few elements instead of many will simplify the economics profoundly from what I can see, but the ship dynamics might make up for this in spades.  Just ensuring your design can get from point A to B will no longer be a given.  Especially if it comes in slightly off heading after a 'jump'.

I complement the catch on exhaust velocity.  Increasing the mass comsumed was a very good fix.

I like the idea that planet killers will be more difficult, but expect that ships specifically designed as such could still rear thier nasty heads.  Reality has its nasty side.
The flip side to this is that reality is much more difficult than some would indicate.  Statements that a shot at the earth would be easy from outside Neptune at the drop of a hat just aren't realistic.  The old statement that where math is precise it doesn't describe reality, and where math describes reality it is not precise applies here.  You can land on the moon, you can get satellites in orbit, you can dock at the ISS, but these all have months of math double and triple checked and based off of decades of measurements.   And even with all of this accumulated data, just check how closely we could predict the crash sites of the last couple satelites that came down.
Getting data from Neptune to Earth will take hours (1/2 a day) just to get an accurate ranging.  Longer if you 'jumped' in farther out.  Getting the mass on the star, planets, etc is not an easy process at that range.  You can measure the star's acceleration but you will need to first get accurate measurements of the distances, realative velocities. etc which will take hours again and will likely be measuring values only a tiny fraction of the velocities/accelerations involved.  If you have a week or two, it would be a fairly simple ordeal to take the shot (depending on how accurately you can maneuver your ship).  Otherwise go for guided munitions.

And on the idea of a guided railgun projectile, I don't buy it.  If you can design a sensor that could withstand the acceleration of the shot, it could withstand being hit with a fair portion of that level of energy.  We can make (semi) guided munitions for artillery, but none of it will be acheiving anywhere close to the G's of those railguns.  It isn't just a little more than the breaking strength of any known material, it is an order of magnitude bigger.  Just build a missile.  (That would be my opinion.)

Those would be my thoughts, but I have made up my mind that if this ever comes off the drawing board I will have to make the kids give up some of their computer time because dad will have finally found a game HE wants to play.   :D



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Offline bean

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #496 on: November 22, 2011, 09:46:26 AM »

And on the idea of a guided railgun projectile, I don't buy it.  If you can design a sensor that could withstand the acceleration of the shot, it could withstand being hit with a fair portion of that level of energy.  We can make (semi) guided munitions for artillery, but none of it will be acheiving anywhere close to the G's of those railguns.  It isn't just a little more than the breaking strength of any known material, it is an order of magnitude bigger.  Just build a missile.  (That would be my opinion.)
I don't think it would be that hard.  If you have solid-state systems (and yes, I'm fairly certain that some thruster systems can be made that way) then it will be able to take any accleration the slug itself can handle.

As for nukes going off when hit:
This is the biggest misconception around about nuclear weapons.  They absolutely, positively, will not detonate under any but the most controlled conditions.  Most modern designs are one-point safe, which means that even if one of the two detonators gets set off, it doesn't blow up.  A railgun projectile won't even cause that.
It might, however, cause radiation casualties to the crew.
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Offline blue emu

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #497 on: November 22, 2011, 10:29:03 AM »
And on the idea of a guided railgun projectile, I don't buy it.  If you can design a sensor that could withstand the acceleration of the shot, it could withstand being hit with a fair portion of that level of energy.  We can make (semi) guided munitions for artillery, but none of it will be acheiving anywhere close to the G's of those railguns.

This has already been tested, several years ago. An Army (not Navy) Railgun test launched a projectile at 40 G's, after which the projectile  went through a pre-programmed manoever.

Granted, this didn't involve sensors, but the technology has advanced since then and will continue to advance.
 

Offline UnLimiTeD

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #498 on: November 22, 2011, 10:39:35 AM »
Guided will be easy, if expensive.
Homing is a lot harder.
As for nukes going off:
No, they wouldn't, but if a ship is hit by a nuke, and evaporated, it is quite possible that stored nukes will be set off, resulting a way bigger explosion.
 

Offline Napoleon XIX

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #499 on: November 22, 2011, 11:20:38 AM »
Guided will be easy, if expensive.
Homing is a lot harder.
As for nukes going off:
No, they wouldn't, but if a ship is hit by a nuke, and evaporated, it is quite possible that stored nukes will be set off, resulting a way bigger explosion.

Nuclear weapons are never at a risk of sympathetic detonation: the triggering mechanism is far too precise. At worst, you'll get a fizzle.

Antimatter weapons, on the other hand...
 

Offline Yonder

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #500 on: November 22, 2011, 02:43:11 PM »
The old statement that where math is precise it doesn't describe reality, and where math describes reality it is not precise applies here.
That would be important if our officer's were doing the math with pencil and paper. Luckily they will have computers.
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You can land on the moon, you can get satellites in orbit, you can dock at the ISS, but these all have months of math double and triple checked and based off of decades of measurements.
The trajectories for all of those scenarios, and more, can be calculated in seconds with modern computers and modern commercially available software, like this one: http://www.agi.com/products/by-product-type/applications/stk/stk-for-space-missions/
There are a lot of things that need to be done to prepare for an ISS rendezvous, having every one hanging around waiting for a supercomputer to finish a 90 day calculation is not one of them.
It's true that there are decades of measurements that go into the models that predict these movements, however those decades are for incremental improvements. For example breaking Earth's gravity field up into 2450 pieces rather than 800 pieces, or making density 80% accurate instead of 78% accurate (yeah, density is the killer, everything else is really straightforward, not density.) Also, a lot of those incremental improvements are for things that need ridiculous levels of accuracy. Shooting down a GPS satellite doesn't need the Earth to be into 2450 pieces, knowing where GPS satellites are precisely enough that they can help with the positions and timings needed for an experiment comparing the speeds of photons and neutrinos, that needs more accuracy.
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And even with all of this accumulated data, just check how closely we could predict the crash sites of the last couple satelites that came down.
That's all because even the best models for density aren't all that great, also helped along by the fact that those satellites were out of control and tumbling, making calculating their Cd or Area at any time also tricky. I have been ignoring the inaccuracy of density models in this thread because Steve isn't modeling density, and the vast majority of Aurora combat happens more than 400km above the Earth's surface, so it seems silly to base the accuracy for all long-ranged shooting on that one case.

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And on the idea of a guided railgun projectile, I don't buy it.  If you can design a sensor that could withstand the acceleration of the shot, it could withstand being hit with a fair portion of that level of energy.  We can make (semi) guided munitions for artillery, but none of it will be acheiving anywhere close to the G's of those railguns.
In ten seconds of googling the first reference I found to shooting a rocket out of a gun was the Russians doing it in their T-72 tanks back in 1985. I'm sure it was done in various other situations earlier. In fact I am pretty sure that Gerald Bull successfully shot rockets out of his enormous cannons in Project Harp back in the 60s. His first tries failed as the propellant deformed on firing, but I believe he was able to get the propellant to survive when he slowly filled the tank of (dry) propellant with salt water so that all of the voids in between the propellant grains were filled. Unfortunately I was not able to find any citations to back that up. You are assuming that there have been no electronic or material advancements to partner with the rail gun advancements. You are right that shooting an Excalibur out of one of these railguns would convert it to paste, but we aren't talking about doing that.
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It isn't just a little more than the breaking strength of any known material, it is an order of magnitude bigger.
Acceleration doesn't directly compare against "breaking strength" so I don't know what you are talking about here. Also you haven't given any breaking strengths of the material you are talking about, and honestly in my mind "Order of Magnitude Bigger than modern technology" has been my ballpark comparison for every "trans-newtonian" starting tech.

All that said, I actually would approve of lower acceptable muzzle velocities for shrapnel, kinetic, etc, etc warheads. (Or even G requirements if Steve wanted to model Railgun length) These could either be individual tech lines, or simply static multipliers. For example.
Projectile muzzle velocity modifiers:
<list>
<li>Slug: 1.0</li>
<li>Kinetic Missile: 0.8</li>
<li>Shrapnel Missile: 0.7</li>
<li>Conventional Missile: 0.5</li>
<li>Nuclear Missile: 0.3</li>
<li>Laser Rod Missile: 0.2</li>
</list>
 

Offline Mel Vixen

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #501 on: November 22, 2011, 11:30:58 PM »
Regarding the safty of nukes i want to point you at two incidents that happend in the 60s. Number 1. Almost made a big crater into the beautiful landscape of Goldboro in North Carolina.  The second almost sank spain.

Anyway the newer Bombs are far saver thanks double and dripple point explosives still a thread thought if the computer screws up and arms these guys. What might be also interresting is the recovering of nukes from the enemys wreckage or if you could arm those boys from affar. Imagine a *Spoiler* putting its eggs into one of your disabled cruisers which tiggers the bombs proximity sensor.
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Offline Rastaman

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #502 on: November 23, 2011, 02:38:43 AM »
It's not known what happens when you explode a thermonuke next to another thermonuke. There is no reason to assume that the fuel inside will NOT take part in the reaction.
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Offline UnLimiTeD

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #503 on: November 23, 2011, 03:53:32 AM »
Hmm, well, I suppose there was no reason so far to detonating a 250 kton Fusion Bomb next to an ammo storage containing multiple other nukes.
No one quite knows if fusion "spreads", we don't have too much reliable info on what happens inside stars; it can be assumed, though, that most of it would be blasted away as the sun only "works" in it's core.
I high energy Laser, on the other hand, might be able to partially ignite a nuke, even though that would possibly only wreck the ammo storage.
 

Offline Steve Walmsley (OP)

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #504 on: November 23, 2011, 08:53:50 AM »
Well given that most modern space-constructions are just tinfoil wrapped around a frame made from Hollow aluminium pieces its actually pretty solid.


Steve how will you handle secondary explosions? Say if a railgun-slug rips through a drive which causes catastrophal results? Especially with such things as gascooled Reactors or even magazines filled with nukes it could be devasting.


I intend that reactors may explode in Honorverse-style, although I haven't written any code yet. I am not an expert but I understand that nuclear weapons are difficult to detonate accidentally. In fact, they can be difficult to detonate on purpose :). Perhaps a low chance might be fun for the occasional catastrophic hundred megaton blast. If I class some weapons as anti-matter, they might be considerably more temperamental. One reason for avoiding anti-matter might be its unfortunate tendency to explode at inconvenient times :)

Steve
 

Offline Steve Walmsley (OP)

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #505 on: November 23, 2011, 08:55:33 AM »
Why are you choosing a random enemy ship instead of the closest one? If you did the closest ship for beam weapons then maybe you could have a formation editor so that we could keep our heavier armored ships in the front lines to run interference.

It's not a random enemy ship within range. Its a random ship within the closest fleet to the blast. All ships in the same fleet will have the same coordinates, so I will assume they are stacked vertically. I would imagine that formations will be used a lot more in Newtonian Aurora but in that case each 'escort TG' will be in its own fleet.

Steve
« Last Edit: November 25, 2011, 12:55:34 PM by Steve Walmsley »
 

Offline Rastaman

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #506 on: November 23, 2011, 11:48:08 AM »
I intend that reactors may explode in Honorverse-style, although I haven't written any code yet. I am not an expert but I understand that nuclear weapons are difficult to detonate accidentally. In fact, they can be difficult to detonate on purpose :). Perhaps a low chance might be fun for the occasional catastrophic hundred megaton blast. If I class some weapons as anti-matter, they might be considerably more temperamental. One reason for avoiding anti-matter might be its unfortunate tendency to explode at inconvenient times :)

Steve

Maybe early AM drives/reactors need more maintenance, and in case of a failure, a percentage of the AM in the ship will detonate. Fission or Fusion reactors shouldn't detonate catastrophically and take the whole ship with it, vital components can be damaged enough for the ship to be given up.
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Offline Elouda

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #507 on: November 23, 2011, 12:11:55 PM »
Both Fission and Fusion weapons tend to be rather stable; just look at how a 2 stage fusion weapon works - to get the second stage to detonate requires careful design of the shape and materials in the bomb, even though theres a second nuke going off right next to it. Likewise both fission and fusion power plants tend to be rather inert, and its almost impossible to get a modern nuclear reactor to detonate just by damaging it.

Antimatter is a whole different game though. One thing I always thought would be interesting is having antimatter be a trade-off development, instead of just 'more of the same', ie a fusion drive with better ratings. Using AM would no doubt give you better power outputs and energy densities, but the dangers and costs associated with using and manufacturing it might make high efficiency fusion drives viable alternatives, especially in settings with multiple factions who dont want the stuff being proliferated.

So my suggestion is to split it off from the regular drive and weapon progressions, instead being a seperate tech line and warhead type that becomes available later, with its own dangers and possibly costs (maybe special AM only fuel refineries).
« Last Edit: November 23, 2011, 12:14:02 PM by Elouda »
 

Offline UnLimiTeD

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #508 on: November 23, 2011, 12:38:40 PM »
You could directly use antimatter as fuel, thus generating enormous output at the chance that the entire ship spontaneously evaporates.
Sounds like good afterburners to me.^^
As a suggestion, if you'd ever think about it, first make the rest working :D I can hardly wait.
Also, how will you aquire Anti-Matter in the first place?
You can't mine it....
 

Offline Elouda

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #509 on: November 23, 2011, 01:10:22 PM »
Particle accelerators with a track running around the world, or alternatively, an accelerator in an orbital ring, would give you the sort of energies needed for serious AM production. This is why I was saying it would be expensive.