Author Topic: Newtonian Aurora  (Read 146954 times)

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Offline Steve Walmsley (OP)

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #570 on: November 28, 2011, 12:49:06 PM »
I have been thinking about FTL travel and deep-space sensors, and realised that something is wrong.  If we can create sensors that can see enemy ships travelling in a certain radius, how come we lose contact with our ships going FTL?

In this version of Aurora, ships in FTL enter 'hyperspace', which is a different dimension. Sensors (or even communications) cannot penetrate hyperspace from normal space and normal sensors don't work in hyperspace. Ships in hyperspace can't even see each other. In fact, in the game you lose contact with your own ships while they are in hyperspace. They return to your control when they return to normal space.

Steve
 

Offline UnLimiTeD

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #571 on: November 28, 2011, 01:24:44 PM »
Whoops, didn't know you already calculated it that way.
My bad.
In that case, I really have nothing senseful to add, aside from +1 that armor adds more weight. Why?
More Info to the player.  ;D Ship size+ exhaust + speed = armor Strength.

Just kidding, I'm happy already.

Another question:
Will there be Hyperspace sensors? X-D
 

Offline Mormota

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #572 on: November 28, 2011, 01:36:24 PM »
I'm fairly sure Steve pointed out that there won't be in his post directly above yours.
 

Offline chrislocke2000

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #573 on: November 28, 2011, 01:59:54 PM »
Steve

Thanks for all the feedback. Just a quick one on the nukes. I think you previously mentioned that ships in a task group would, for the purpose of calculating position, be effectively stacked one on top of the other. If that is the case how is an area effect weapon going to be considered when looking at proximity to ships within a single task group?

Thanks!
 

Offline TheDeadlyShoe

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #574 on: November 28, 2011, 02:04:26 PM »
Edit- misleading info removed. :p

@Steve - Are our ships likely to be eaten by a grue in the darkness? :X
« Last Edit: November 28, 2011, 02:45:35 PM by TheDeadlyShoe »
 

Offline Steve Walmsley (OP)

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #575 on: November 28, 2011, 02:33:51 PM »
Steve

Thanks for all the feedback. Just a quick one on the nukes. I think you previously mentioned that ships in a task group would, for the purpose of calculating position, be effectively stacked one on top of the other. If that is the case how is an area effect weapon going to be considered when looking at proximity to ships within a single task group?

Thanks!

The nuke will hit all of the ships in the task group

Steve
 

Offline UnLimiTeD

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #576 on: November 28, 2011, 05:15:10 PM »
So, will it be possible to have ships with a single kilometer distance from each other, in a close formation, but far enough away from nuke danger?
Not that I wouldn't like that, but Auroras task group management isn't quite as intuitive.

Could it be possible to add a "scatter" option for peace time that will just spread ships over a larger dot in space?
So you don't have to manage this when just moving from A to B.
Or maybe allow Sub-Taskgroups, that don't show up in the Task group list until a box is ticked or you order to "disband formation" on the mother-group, or whatever?
I know, senseless ranting, but a bit more control options might slim down the repetition.^^
 

Offline chrislocke2000

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #577 on: November 29, 2011, 07:25:19 AM »
Yikes! I can see I will have to start practicing with detaching ships to spread out those task groups - loosing one ship to a single missle will be bad enough, let alone a whole task group.
 

Offline Steve Walmsley (OP)

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #578 on: November 29, 2011, 12:14:07 PM »
More missile testing. The Chinese Jiangzhu managed to generate a miss by accelerating across the path of the first Sabre NASM. That missile (at the top of the screenshot) is now coming around for another try. A second missile has been launched by the Terran Federation ship at the bottom. Note the heading of that missile compared to the actual location of the Chinese ship. The missile is taking into consideration its own speed and acceleration and the heading, observed speed and acceleration of the target ship. Also, that missile actually had to slow down to rest after being launched and then accelerate again because the launching ship was heading away from the target. Manoeuvre is probably going to play a much larger part in Newtonian Aurora than Standard Aurora.

The DVR rating shown next to each missile is the Delta-V it has remaining.



Steve
 

Offline chrislocke2000

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #579 on: November 29, 2011, 04:29:37 PM »
Steve

Looks great. In terms of helping players work out when to launch a missile or if its possible have you thought about giving an estimated DV usage estimate based on current ship heading, target heading and desired top speed of a missile? Would be good to see ahead of actually hitting the fire button.
 

Offline Elouda

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #580 on: November 29, 2011, 05:08:22 PM »
Looking good.

How much control will we have over missiles? Do they just constantly burn to accelerate and correct their vector, or can we order them to coast or accelerate to a certain speed and then save the rest for terminal maneuvers?
« Last Edit: November 29, 2011, 05:11:54 PM by Elouda »
 

Offline procyon

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #581 on: November 30, 2011, 01:21:04 AM »
What does the time that the program took to generate have to do with anything? Unless you are arguing that every time a firing solution needs to be calculated the Midshipmen will have to develop the software to calculate the shot from scratch? As far as the data for the models, that does take time to collect, however even on immediate arrival to the system you have a lot of information available to you for reasonable simulations.Guessing asteroids orbits is a fundamentally different problem though. You aren't trying to guess where things will be in an hour, or three hours, or a week, you are trying to guess where things are going to be (in the case of Apophis) 32 years later.

Trust me, it takes longer than you think to come up with the numbers.  We have been watching Eris, Sedna, and a number of outer system bodies the size of a small planet and STILL don't have the orbits fixed.  In fact Sedna is still a best guess on its path.  We could be off by a lot.

You are talking about jumping in from WAY out past these planets and getting accurate data on a body.  Gonna take a while....


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I am not sure exactly what shooting 'penetrators' at comets and asteroids has to do with this. There are a lot of reason we are not destroying asteroids, and a lack of knowledge of orbital mechanics isn't one of them. We don't have orbital weapons platforms for one, which is in my mind the biggest thing missing from that plan.

If you are claiming the math is that easy, and establishing a platform so stable to shoot elementary, then we could shoot our scientific probes of asteroids from orbit.  We can't.  Not even close.  Even if we could come up with a platform that stable the interplanetary medium is not very condusive.

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If we did have huge orbital cannons, however, it would be a lot easier to hit comets with those than what we are doing now. Take the Stardust mission, our piddly little weak modern engines took it out of Earth orbit in the beginning of 1999. It came around Earth again in 2001 for a gravity assist (once again because of our piddly little Earth engines), it didn't get to its comet until 2004, five years after it was launched. So yes, a five year mission does require quite a bit of course correction. If that asteroid interception was made with a slug launched at 40km/s then it would have hit within a few days, long before a problematic amount of uncertainty could accumulate.

Our 'piddly little engines' are the best we have to work with.  My apologies for not reaching your expectations.  And that slug at 40 km/s would take a launcher that would dwarf anything we currently have.  But on that thought, you mention that it would hit in days.  This is a lot more of a problem than I believe you understand (at least with current technology).

First problem.  Stable platform.  Remember Newton's Third Law and action / reaction.  That slug just created an enormous amount of recoil.  Unless the slug was perfectly formed (not likely), suffered no deformation, and the slug was accelerated in a perfectly duplicatable manner each time, you won't get very reproducable results.  We will ignore the fact that the slug won't likely survive launch unless the launcher is hundreds of km long (ok, a dozen km would be doable, but building a 10km object??? in space???).  The launcher is going to have to absorb energy imparted on it by that slug.  The launcher is going to deform (a lot with this much energy) just as a rifle barrel occilates when firing.  The dispertion of the bullet is due to a large part in the inablity of anyone to exactly predict where in the occilation the barrel will be when the bullet exits the barrel.  This 40km/s projectile is going to induce SERIOUS occilation on the launcher and whatever it is mounted in.  

Next is the fact that space isn't empty.  In the planetary area (we aren't sure how far it extends out yet.  Still waiting on data from the early probes to come in) densities are on the order of 100,000 particles per cm3.  This is considerably less than earth (10 to the 22nd most places at sea level) but you are ramming your projectile through it terribly fast.  I will assume it has a very good sectional density and ballistic coeficient but it will still be generating a great deal of drag on those particles.   If you should happen to hit an area of higher density you will suffer deflection like a rifle bullet striking water.  So if you shoot at a target from beyond the heliopause, you will get a rather pronounced reaction.  Just measuring where the heliopause is at would take a great deal of time, and likely require something crossing it while doing constant sampling.

And if this projectile hits a grain of sand on the way in it may as well have hit a nuke.  There is a lot of 'dust' out there.  Tens of tons of it fall to earth each day.  We have a number of satellites collecting it.  You will likely hit a grain or two on your weeks long trip in system.

Shooting such a high energy projectile would be a difficult feat over interplanetary distances.  Doing it after a few hours or days of observation from such incredible distances would be getting the camel through the eye of the needle.

And thank you byron for speaking in my absence.  You summed it up quite nicely.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2011, 06:06:26 AM by procyon »
... and I will show you fear in a handful of dust ...
 

Offline Yonder

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #582 on: November 30, 2011, 05:38:35 PM »
Trust me
I make it a habit of not bringing personal identities into internet arguments for a couple reasons, mainly because anyone can claim to be anything on the internet, and also because I don't like appeals to authority. I think that reasoned arguments (and lots of math) are the best way to go about things. However at this point we are really talking about more nebulous claims than can easily be demonstrated, and you've said "trust me" twice, so I suppose I'll return with the "I do this (examination and implementation of force and environment models to accurately propagate space craft and other heavenly bodies) for a living." I'm a software developer for the company I've linked to twice now, and the main developer of one of their propagation products.

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it takes longer than you think to come up with the numbers.  We have been watching Eris, Sedna, and a number of outer system bodies the size of a small planet and STILL don't have the orbits fixed.  In fact Sedna is still a best guess on its path.  We could be off by a lot.

You are talking about jumping in from WAY out past these planets and getting accurate data on a body.  Gonna take a while....
Calculating Sedna's orbit parameters from Earth is a much harder problem than getting a firing solution on Earth (from, say, Neptune). One of those involves propagating the position of an object 12750 km across a few (say 4) weeks forward in time from measurements taken 4.6E9 km away.

The other involves the propagation of a body 8 times smaller 845 times longer (if you were looking for perihelion position, if you wanted to propagate a whole orbit try 148,200 times longer) from measurements taken almost three times further away.

The longer time is the kicker, as uncertainties in position grow geometrically as you propagate them forward in time.

I'm also not sure how you got that I was trying to shoot at Earth from out past Sedna ("WAY" out past Sedna you said). I have really just been using Neptune because I believe days ago I took an arbitrary firing solution against the Daring that seemed reasonable and extrapolated out where a ship that was that accurate could hit Earth from, and it turned out to be around Neptune. I think that a firing point anywhere in the outer solar system would work equally well as Neptune from a "too far away to do anything about until after the attack" standpoint. And honestly the Neptune case was mostly predicated on speeds the Daring could attain pre-Engine Nerf. When you are attacking something closing at higher speeds the relevant range is smaller. Now that the speeds have been lowered if I reran my numbers I may indeed find a position around Jupiter to be more reasonable, but I think for this discussion that the exact position of the shooter is fairly unimportant.

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If you are claiming the math is that easy, and establishing a platform so stable to shoot elementary, then we could shoot our scientific probes of asteroids from orbit.  We can't.  Not even close.  Even if we could come up with a platform that stable the interplanetary medium is not very condusive.
If the math was "normal-speak easy" I wouldn't have a job. What I meant was that it was "easy" in the sense that "it's really hard but we have had thousands of people and millions of computing hours working on it and similar problems in the past 40 years and it's now a solved problem". I also assume that in Aurora their algorithms and computers will be no less effective than ours, and will probably be at least an order of magnitude better.

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Our 'piddly little engines' are the best we have to work with.  My apologies for not reaching your expectations.  And that slug at 40 km/s would take a launcher that would dwarf anything we currently have.  But on that thought, you mention that it would hit in days.  This is a lot more of a problem than I believe you understand (at least with current technology).
Our 'piddly little engines' are not the best we have to work with in Aurora. According to the schematics we've seen capabilities 100x beyond that of our engines will be commonplace in the early game. Similar to that 40 km/s railgun slug, which is the slowest of the railgun muzzle velocities that Steve has posted. What I have been trying to do is take all of the stated abilities of Aurora tech, and look at what they would accomplish if everything else was similar to modern tech levels.

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First problem.  Stable platform.
According to NASA fact sites the Hubble telescope has a Pointing Accuracy of 7/1000th of an arcsecond, so platforms in space can align to a target with a great deal of stability. Now granted it's another ball game entirely to maintain stability on an object accelerating on a huge cloud of plasma. I suppose Steve could model accuracy penalties while accelerating, but I think he could also handwave that requirement away. We have a variety of ways already to mitigate instability and jolts for both turrets on naval vessels and more rudimentary science experiments, and it would seem fairly reasonable (to me anyways) to just say, "eh, they have something like that".

Now as far as how long it takes the platform to regain stability after a shot, that depends on the mass of the platform, the offset of the barrel from the center of mass, the abilities of the control system to torque the craft, and a heck of a lot of other things that Steve is not modelling. Seems reasonable to just say that the spaceship is able to damp out it's orientation by the time the next shot is ready.

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Remember Newton's Third Law and action / reaction.  That slug just created an enormous amount of recoil.  Unless the slug was perfectly formed (not likely), suffered no deformation, and the slug was accelerated in a perfectly duplicatable manner each time, you won't get very reproducable results.
You can say literally exactly the same thing about any handgun, rifle, or cannon that has ever existed. It basically amounts to saying “it has to be done carefully” all of the problems you are bringing up are what your millions of scientists are supposed to be figuring out in their cush desk jobs on Terraformed Mars.

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We will ignore the fact that the slug won't likely survive launch unless the launcher is hundreds of km long (ok, a dozen km would be doable, but building a 10km object??? in space???).  The launcher is going to have to absorb energy imparted on it by that slug.  The launcher is going to deform (a lot with this much energy) just as a rifle barrel occilates when firing.  The dispertion of the bullet is due to a large part in the inablity of anyone to exactly predict where in the occilation the barrel will be when the bullet exits the barrel.  This 40km/s projectile is going to induce SERIOUS occilation on the launcher and whatever it is mounted in.
For a normal unguided kinetic slug going through a coil gun or railgun you don’t have to worry about the G force destroying the slug since the magnetic forces apply to the entire projectile fairly uniformly. It is any fancier components of the slug that are not exactly as magnetic as the rest of the material and accelerating at exactly the same rate as the rest of the slug that will be clobbered, but I agree that for now we’ll have to brush that aside and see how Steve decides to fluff that. As far as the rest of it, you say right there that normal cannons undergo the same flexing, and that is what gives them their inaccuracies. Furthermore I cited earlier that those inaccuracies for a high quality civilian-available hunting rifle were around an arc second. I just make the assumption that with the better materials and technology of the Aurora setting they will be able to maintain and improve on modern accuracy even as the capabilities of their weapons improve. I base this on the entirety of our civilized history, which has shown our weapons becoming longer-ranged, higher powered, and more accurate over time.

Additionally I don’t think that I ever argued that the weapons should be perfectly accurate, on the contrary I think that introducing weapon accuracy in fractions of an arc second or radian as an additional design/research category would be pretty sweet.

I will have to do some more math before I can quantify the sort of effect the interplanetary dust cloud may have on a trajectory, but I would like a citation for that “100,000 particles per cubic centimeter” That is 5 times that of a typical number of gas molecules in a cubic centimeter of atmosphere at 500km above the Earth’s surface.
 

Offline bean

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #583 on: November 30, 2011, 06:27:43 PM »
I'm also not sure how you got that I was trying to shoot at Earth from out past Sedna ("WAY" out past Sedna you said). I have really just been using Neptune because I believe days ago I took an arbitrary firing solution against the Daring that seemed reasonable and extrapolated out where a ship that was that accurate could hit Earth from, and it turned out to be around Neptune. I think that a firing point anywhere in the outer solar system would work equally well as Neptune from a "too far away to do anything about until after the attack" standpoint. And honestly the Neptune case was mostly predicated on speeds the Daring could attain pre-Engine Nerf. When you are attacking something closing at higher speeds the relevant range is smaller. Now that the speeds have been lowered if I reran my numbers I may indeed find a position around Jupiter to be more reasonable, but I think for this discussion that the exact position of the shooter is fairly unimportant.
I believe you were the one who started with something on the order of half a light-year.  I know that was a mistake, but Neptune is closer then usual.

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If the math was "normal-speak easy" I wouldn't have a job. What I meant was that it was "easy" in the sense that "it's really hard but we have had thousands of people and millions of computing hours working on it and similar problems in the past 40 years and it's now a solved problem". I also assume that in Aurora their algorithms and computers will be no less effective than ours, and will probably be at least an order of magnitude better.
Again, that's not the problem.  If we could do such things, why do we need midcourse corrections on spacecraft?  The sort of thing you work on is more then adequate for a spacecraft that can correct its course, but if it can't, there's a problem.

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According to NASA fact sites the Hubble telescope has a Pointing Accuracy of 7/1000th of an arcsecond, so platforms in space can align to a target with a great deal of stability. Now granted it's another ball game entirely to maintain stability on an object accelerating on a huge cloud of plasma. I suppose Steve could model accuracy penalties while accelerating, but I think he could also handwave that requirement away. We have a variety of ways already to mitigate instability and jolts for both turrets on naval vessels and more rudimentary science experiments, and it would seem fairly reasonable (to me anyways) to just say, "eh, they have something like that".
That's not as accurate as you think.  While it sounds impressive, you'll need much less to be able to hit anything, particularly at the ranges you're proposing.  And if you're shooting at earth from Neptune, then I think that someone sneezing will probably be enough to make the shot miss. 

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You can say literally exactly the same thing about any handgun, rifle, or cannon that has ever existed. It basically amounts to saying “it has to be done carefully” all of the problems you are bringing up are what your millions of scientists are supposed to be figuring out in their cush desk jobs on Terraformed Mars.
For a normal unguided kinetic slug going through a coil gun or railgun you don’t have to worry about the G force destroying the slug since the magnetic forces apply to the entire projectile fairly uniformly. It is any fancier components of the slug that are not exactly as magnetic as the rest of the material and accelerating at exactly the same rate as the rest of the slug that will be clobbered, but I agree that for now we’ll have to brush that aside and see how Steve decides to fluff that. As far as the rest of it, you say right there that normal cannons undergo the same flexing, and that is what gives them their inaccuracies. Furthermore I cited earlier that those inaccuracies for a high quality civilian-available hunting rifle were around an arc second. I just make the assumption that with the better materials and technology of the Aurora setting they will be able to maintain and improve on modern accuracy even as the capabilities of their weapons improve. I base this on the entirety of our civilized history, which has shown our weapons becoming longer-ranged, higher powered, and more accurate over time.

Additionally I don’t think that I ever argued that the weapons should be perfectly accurate, on the contrary I think that introducing weapon accuracy in fractions of an arc second or radian as an additional design/research category would be pretty sweet.
Comparisons to modern weapons are fundamentally flawed.  To be able to do what you suggest, you'll need something that is as good if not better then top-of-the-line modern lab equipment.  And it has to be military hardware.  That's the kicker.  It has to be able to work reliably and without handholding from a dozen PhD's.
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Offline Steve Walmsley (OP)

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #584 on: November 30, 2011, 07:06:50 PM »
There are plenty of people in this thread with more practical knowledge and maths skills than myself so I am not going to get involved in any detailed discussions about shooting Earth from Neptune. However, the Earth is 12,000 kilometers in diameter and Neptune is about 4,500,000,000 km away, so the ratio is about 375,000-1. This may be a simplistic analogy but that is like putting a basketball on top of the Empire State building in New York (or perhaps having it move slowly across the NYC skyline) and trying to shoot it from the Washington Monument (about 435,000-1). Difficult but you could imagine it being possible with modern technology. Whether you could hit one particular spot on the basketball might be trickier but given the probable future state of technology in an Aurora game, I think most people would accept that something like that would be possible without much suspension of disbelief. It's certainly a lot easier than creating the engines in the game :)

My intention is not to create a perfectly accurate simulation but rather a game that has the feel of hard science. Gameplay and fun will always take precedence over physics and even though the game is a lot more 'hard science' than most, it is still going to be far more simplified than reality.

Steve

« Last Edit: November 30, 2011, 07:14:59 PM by Steve Walmsley »