Author Topic: Newtonian Aurora  (Read 146956 times)

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Offline Antsan

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #675 on: December 19, 2011, 02:39:19 PM »
M1 is the origin of the signal, M2 is where the signal is reflected, the distance between the two is r.
The strength of the signal at M1 going out is x.
The strength of the signal at M2 is x*1/r²=x/r².
The strength of the signal at M1 going in is x/r²*1/r²=x/(r²*r²)=x/r?
Oh.  I see.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2011, 02:50:38 PM by Antsan »
 

Offline Elouda

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #676 on: December 19, 2011, 02:42:43 PM »
The strength of the signal at M1 going in is x/r²*1/r²=x/(r²*r²)=x/r?

=x/r4

 ;)

Regardless, it dosent matter so much as to if its to 4 or to 2, so long as active and passive maintain a ratio of a square.
 

Offline Yonder

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #677 on: December 19, 2011, 03:04:34 PM »
=x/r4

 ;)

Regardless, it dosent matter so much as to if its to 4 or to 2, so long as active and passive maintain a ratio of a square.

Well, it doesn't matter from a "Can the passive sensor spot the active sensor" standpoint, but from a "how much larger does my sensor need to be to get better range" it matters a great deal. If, for example Actives Shrink with the square and passives shrink linearly, than it's a lot easier to make very very long range tracking stations, you may be able to track an entire system from one location.

If you go by powers of four and powers of two than that may stop being the case, which will make sensor drones and alternative methods of getting data much more important.
 

Offline bean

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #678 on: December 19, 2011, 08:39:10 PM »
On a different topic, how will sectors be handled?
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Offline sloanjh

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #679 on: December 20, 2011, 01:03:23 AM »
I'm guessing that this effect would have a negative affect on gameplay, however for completeness sake I want to point out that while passive sensors should diminish in ability based on the second power of the distance, active sensors should actually diminish with the fourth power of the distance.

That is because they emit a signal which degrades with the second power of the distance, and then that signal hits a contact and reflects back, and that reflection also degrades with the second power of the distance, so the total degradation is the fourth power of the distance.

If this change was made in the game the result would be that it would begin to become nearly impossible to scan an enemy with active sensors without him seeing your active sensor signature (right now it's unlikely in most cases, but a moderate tech advantage can give you that scenario for typical ships with small EM sensors).

As an example, if you increased your sensor strength by a factor of 16, you could only see twice as far as you could before, however your enemies can see you 4 times farther out.

I would still model Fire Controls as diminishing with the square of the distance however. Those aren't area sensors, they are only monitoring a single target, so that fixed beam on the way to the target wouldn't lose strength over distance. Once the signal does hit the target, however, the reflection would begin to disperse normally.
I was contemplating going here (active detection range fall-off as the 4th power, rather than the square of the distance), but didn't because my recollection is that it's more complicated than that.  But now that someone's opened the can of worms....

The 4th power thing is for diffuse reflection - if I think of the active emitter as a light bulb, then the reflected radiation from the target is acting as another light bulb, emitting in all directions.  The power of the target light bulb goes like 1/r^2 (amount of light falling on it from original emitter), and the travel back gives it another 1/r^2, for a total of 1/r^4.

The problem is that there's also a specular (mirror-like) reflection component.  First, imagine the target is a mirror oriented perpendicular to the path from the original bulb to the target.  If you trace the rays, then you can see that they keep diverging at the same rate as if no mirror were there.  So in the reflective case, the distances add (rather than multiply as in the diffusive case)  So for the specular component, the fall-off will be 1/(2*r)^2.  This effect is suppressed, however, because the active sensor has to "get lucky" and catch the glint of reflection off the mirror.  This is why concave cubic corners are so bad for stealth - they reflect rays back no matter which direction the ray is coming in at.  In fact, I remember reading that ocean-going small craft typically mount radar reflectors that are just corner-cube boxes - the idea is that you want a big freighter about to run you over to get 1/(2r)^2 power no matter how your boat is oriented.

Note that ESM will still have a big advantage over active sensors, because even though there's a 1/r^2 component to the active signal, it's still going to be suppressed by geometric factors in the target-emitter geometry.  So while I agree that overall it should be MUCH easier to pick up an active signal with ESM than for the active signal to actually see anything, the active range fall-off is much more complicated than one might think.

On the whole fire control question, I don't think it should be any different than actives.  Unless the beam is perfectly collimated, it will still have an opening angle, and so its power density should (eventually) still drop off with range like the distance squared.  This behavior should kick in when the beam has gone far enough so that it's significantly larger (e.g. 2x) than the original aperture.  The question is "how big is the spot size vs. the original beam radius for fire control at typical engagment ranges".

John
« Last Edit: December 20, 2011, 01:06:01 AM by sloanjh »
 

Offline Steve Walmsley (OP)

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #680 on: December 20, 2011, 12:28:19 PM »
I'm guessing that this effect would have a negative affect on gameplay, however for completeness sake I want to point out that while passive sensors should diminish in ability based on the second power of the distance, active sensors should actually diminish with the fourth power of the distance.

That is because they emit a signal which degrades with the second power of the distance, and then that signal hits a contact and reflects back, and that reflection also degrades with the second power of the distance, so the total degradation is the fourth power of the distance.

If this change was made in the game the result would be that it would begin to become nearly impossible to scan an enemy with active sensors without him seeing your active sensor signature (right now it's unlikely in most cases, but a moderate tech advantage can give you that scenario for typical ships with small EM sensors).

As an example, if you increased your sensor strength by a factor of 16, you could only see twice as far as you could before, however your enemies can see you 4 times farther out.

I would still model Fire Controls as diminishing with the square of the distance however. Those aren't area sensors, they are only monitoring a single target, so that fixed beam on the way to the target wouldn't lose strength over distance. Once the signal does hit the target, however, the reflection would begin to disperse normally.

I considered using the full radar equation but decided against it on the grounds of playability. Newtonian Aurora does use a formula that means the range of active sensors is based on the square root of their power. As passive sensors are still linear, this creates a similar dynamic between the two.

Steve
 

Offline Steve Walmsley (OP)

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #681 on: December 20, 2011, 12:32:27 PM »
Well, it doesn't matter from a "Can the passive sensor spot the active sensor" standpoint, but from a "how much larger does my sensor need to be to get better range" it matters a great deal. If, for example Actives Shrink with the square and passives shrink linearly, than it's a lot easier to make very very long range tracking stations, you may be able to track an entire system from one location.

If you go by powers of four and powers of two than that may stop being the case, which will make sensor drones and alternative methods of getting data much more important.

While that's true, the ranges of sensors in gameplay terms are about what I want them to be. If I changed to a different formula, I would also alter the strength of each level in the sensor tech progressions to end up back where we are now :). So I decided to go with a formula that players would more easily understand while retaining the general feel of active vs passive.

Steve
 

Offline Steve Walmsley (OP)

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #682 on: December 20, 2011, 12:33:04 PM »
On a different topic, how will sectors be handled?

Probably based on distance in LY rather than distance in jumps - although its something I haven't even looked at yet

Steve
 

Offline UnLimiTeD

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #683 on: December 20, 2011, 12:38:53 PM »
Wouldn't that be a good basic for stealth systems?
The higher the level, the more the range of the sensor moves to an /r^4 drop?
Given that sizes now don't result in a linear increase in TCS, this might make more sense.
 

Offline Steve Walmsley (OP)

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #684 on: December 20, 2011, 03:02:01 PM »
Due to the slower pace of Newtonian Aurora (for those who find Standard Aurora too fast-paced :)), I have reduced wealth production, construction and mining by about 50%. Shipbuilding and research is reduced by about 60%. Fuel production remains the same as Standard Aurora while the size and cost of the Sorium Harvester module have both been halved, which means you can now produce twice as much fuel for the same ship mass/cost.

In Newtonian Aurora, the chance of a gas giant containing Sorium in the atmosphere will be 50%, compared to 20% for Standard Aurora

Fuel is going to be a vital commodity, which is why despite everything else being slower, fuel production will be the same, fuel harvesting will be twice as fast and Sorium availability in gas giants will be higher. Establishing a fuel harvesting industry to going to be key.

I am also halving the population growth rate. The Earth-based pops in my test campaign (all 20 of them!) are growing too fast for the relatively slow rate of industrial growth

Steve
 

Offline UnLimiTeD

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #685 on: December 20, 2011, 03:54:32 PM »
Now that is something I applaud.
I always found it a little fast even for Auroras economy, given there's no plagues, no overcrowding (Earth is a class 0 world, but it'll be full at some point), no effect of wealth on growth;
Definitely a great improvement. Well, I suppose you're getting tired of it. :P
I'd be nice if a very developed, wealthy population would have a slightly lower growth, maybe reaching 0 at around 5 B?
 

Offline Yonder

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #686 on: December 21, 2011, 09:00:25 AM »
Now that is something I applaud.
I always found it a little fast even for Auroras economy, given there's no plagues, no overcrowding (Earth is a class 0 world, but it'll be full at some point), no effect of wealth on growth;
Definitely a great improvement. Well, I suppose you're getting tired of it. :P
I'd be nice if a very developed, wealthy population would have a slightly lower growth, maybe reaching 0 at around 5 B?
Odd that you consider 5 billion the limit a planet can handle with super advanced technology when we have 7 billion IRL now.
 

Offline Mel Vixen

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #687 on: December 21, 2011, 12:58:06 PM »
An 10 B till 2100 iirc. But actually the question how many people a planet/moon can support isnt a bad one. Maybe Steve could somehow define a ultimate max based on size and "not submerged" surface of a planet?
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Offline UnLimiTeD

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #688 on: December 21, 2011, 04:13:29 PM »
I'm considering 5 B the limit for a wealthy society; given that we got a 2 B fighting starvation and civil wars right now, that's probably valid.
It's ultimately a basis of what causes a stop.
Overcrowding would result in unrest, and require Infrastructure even on a class 0 world, but it probably wouldn't directly stop growth.
Probably make class 0 require Infrastructure based on pop and size?
 

Offline Yonder

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #689 on: December 21, 2011, 08:23:16 PM »
I'm considering 5 B the limit for a wealthy society; given that we got a 2 B fighting starvation and civil wars right now, that's probably valid.
It's ultimately a basis of what causes a stop.
Overcrowding would result in unrest, and require Infrastructure even on a class 0 world, but it probably wouldn't directly stop growth.
Probably make class 0 require Infrastructure based on pop and size?

We already produce enough food for every body, we just don't distribute it as well as we should. Also if Africa had the per capita food production of the United States then there would be even more extra food.