Author Topic: Newtonian Aurora  (Read 146875 times)

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Offline Mel Vixen

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #840 on: January 17, 2012, 02:26:06 PM »
So i was misinformed no big deal for me 8) , still 44tons TnT equivalent arent bad and i doubt you need supersonic speeds in planetary warfare althought having supersonic stuff is still neat.
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Offline bean

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #841 on: January 18, 2012, 07:18:53 AM »
My point was that I highly doubt you can drop one from orbit and have it work unless you slow it way down.
This is Excel-in-Space, not Wing Commander - Rastaman
 

Offline UnLimiTeD

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #842 on: January 18, 2012, 12:28:11 PM »
Given inheritance, dropping bombs should be easy even without working gravity. Creating pure bombs should be a possibility.
 

Offline chrislocke2000

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #843 on: January 23, 2012, 02:58:16 PM »
Steve any chance of a quick update on how things are going with the test campaign?
 

Offline Steve Walmsley (OP)

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #844 on: January 27, 2012, 11:37:34 AM »
Steve any chance of a quick update on how things are going with the test campaign?

I've been away for a week and haven't touched it in about 10 days overall. I'll probably be doing some programming and playtesting over the weekend.

Steve
 

Offline Jiman

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #845 on: January 29, 2012, 12:00:52 PM »
Quote from: Steve Walmsley link=topic=4019. msg45470#msg45470 date=1326639620
The jury is still out on rail gun ordnance.  Maybe to prevent continual firing, an easier option may be some type of failure chance for a weapon. 

I have been looking at cosmic dust and the speeds that would be required for significant damage.  Based on the size and mass of cosmic dust particles, the speed required to damage armour is a lot higher than I would have expected.  It probably wouldn't be worth it for the early to middle game, except in Nebula systems.  On the other hand, there isn't a huge amount of material available on this subject so if someone has knowledge in this area please speak up.

Steve

Couldnt Cosmic dust be heated together to form larger particles of matter?


 

Offline jseah

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #846 on: January 31, 2012, 12:21:34 PM »
I was wondering why the implied results of newtonian railguns were so devastating.  1kg railgun shell enough to blow apart a ship?

So I got to thinking about where the energy came from.  

Scenario: (note: newtonian calculations only, if scaling to high tech levels, might need correction for relativistic effects)
Magneto-plasma Drive
Thrust: 12.5 MN     Base Fuel Consumption per MN: 188.1 litres per hour
Fuel Use at Full Burn: 2351 litres per hour

(Source: Vanguard, test campaign setup) 1 million litres of fuel = 1kton; 1litre of fuel = 1kg (sorium fuel has the density of water?)

Fuel use at Full Burn: 2351kg per hour = 0.653kg per second (3sf) = 0.000653 tons per second

Force on fuel (action/reaction): 12.5MN

"One Meganewton (MN) is equal to the amount of net force required to accelerate a mass of one ton at a rate of one kilometre per second squared. "
Exhaust velocity (engine's frame of reference): 19100 km/s (3sf)
Exhaust energy (and hence energy yield of fuel): 1.20E14 J  (3sf)

Energy Density of Sorium Fuel: 1.83E14 J per kg (3sf)

Seems a bit high to me...
For comparision, energy density of antimatter is 8.99E16 J per kg (source: wikipedia)
And nuclear fusion is 5.76E14 J per kg...


And to think I wondered why railguns are so insanely powerful.  Why, we're using nuclear fusion energy densities to propel the 1kg chunk (railgun drones), does it really so surprise us that the impact energies are within an order of magnitude or two from nuclear fusion weapons?

EDIT:
If you already thought of this, then do pardon me for not having thought of doing this before.  Just correcting some of my misconceptions. 
« Last Edit: January 31, 2012, 12:24:48 PM by jseah »
 

Offline Bremen

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #847 on: January 31, 2012, 01:49:50 PM »
Its true, but I think people are getting so caught up in math and realism that they forget this is a game.

Sure, one way to deal with the power of railguns would be to severely restrict the speed of ships, but that would make for a very slow and boring game. I think it's better to keep the speeds the same and handwave the physics to avoid fights being all 1 shot kills.
 

Offline jseah

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #848 on: January 31, 2012, 02:10:12 PM »
For that matter, since sorium fuel is going to be so much more plentiful now (relative to other things), we could have a cheap version of a nuclear missile that uses sorium reactions instead of nuclear warheads. 

An order of magnitude less powerful per ton, but able to convert all remaining fuel to explosive yield, plus cheaper. 
 

Offline 3_14159

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #849 on: January 31, 2012, 06:28:17 PM »
Quote from: Bremen link=topic=4019. msg46000#msg46000 date=1328039390
I think it's better to keep the speeds the same and handwave the physics to avoid fights being all 1 shot kills.
Actually, I don't think that's necessary.  True, when having great differences in speed, the railgun hits will probably be one hit kills.  But that's it, "one hit kills".  If it doesn't hit you, it doesn't kill you.  The "time to displace ship once" (tds) is probably quite important here.  That means the time needed to accelerate in such a way, that the ship has not a single meter at the position it would be when not having accelerated.  For example, for the geosurvey ship in the test campaign this would be about 19 seconds.  But let's take the warship on page 4 of the newtonian fighter thread.  It has a neat 22. 5 second tds.  That means when accelerating constantly and randomly, even when closing in at let's say 40,000km/s (quite a high figure), that still means that, even when your gun is hitting perfect in the center of a target at no matter what range, you'll still have an 100%-hit range of only 900,000km.  Therefore the game will probably be about probability.  Shoot enough, and you're bound to hit at least something.

In fact, I think I can more or less see how combat will turn out:

Long Range:
about 50mkm and more:
Missiles rule the vacuum.  They can correct for course changes of the enemies, and they can accelerate to high speeds.  Two alternatives exist for their armament: Kinetic (including probably shrapnel) and nuclear (including beams).
Kinetic warheads will have the advantage of depending on the speed difference.  A 1ton warhead hitting you with 10m/s will probably just ruin your paint job, but the same warhead crashing into you at 4,000km/s as you try to reach the enemy will pretty much ruin your day, a. k. a.  pulverizing the ship (although the jury's still out on how much exactly you're screwed).  Their disadvantage? They depend on the speed difference.
Nuclear warheads on the other hand always deal the same damage, independent of movement.  And laser warheads will make point defence more difficult.  More to that, later.

Mid Range:
Long live the railguns! And someday lasers.  This is where the aforementioned spraying will occur.  Here, again, the same rules apply as above: Railguns are great when you and the enemy are flying head-on.  When however you're on a parallel course, they will not do much damage.  And if he's flying away? Forget it.
Lasers on the other hand (when implemented as I'm thinking they will) will hit with always the same damage, no matter who's moving where.  And should have a higher effective range than railguns.  That cruiser I mentioned above? You have a range against that of about 22. 5 lightseconds, not considering jitter and such.  That are 6. 75mkm!

Point Defence:
Now it's getting interesting.  What is stopping these kinetic missiles to fly through your ship? In short, you of course ;-).  There have been different ideas to deal with those missiles:
Dust: Simply use their speed against them, by shooting dust (or small spheres or whatever) in the path of enemy missiles, they will use their kinetic energy to kill them.  Is of course dependent on different factors, all of which are discussed at Impact Physics.
Nuclear Antimissiles:
Shoot one, kill dozens.  In theory.  Has, of course, to be shot quite some time before the enemies missiles reach you, or you will destroy that armor yourself.  And, the enemy could send nuclear antinuclear anti missiles with theirs.
Missiles with shrapnel: Basically the dust above, but at a range.
And my favourite, although not yet implemented: Lasers.  Why? Because they should be able to kill missiles at quite a big range.  Using the nuclear anti-ship missile as an example, estimating their length to about 4 metres, one can see that a laser without jitter should be able to hit it at 100% certainty at a distance of 25kkm.  While, without knowing the strength of lasers one cannot certainly say that this will one-hit-kill such a missile, even trading the warhead for armor it would need less than 800MJ at ceramic composite armor to at least punch a hole through.  Looking at the railguns that seems possible.
And even if there is debris, at 25kkm even a slight deviation will carry it far, far away from the attacked ship.
 

Offline sublight

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #850 on: January 31, 2012, 06:45:52 PM »
Its true, but I think people are getting so caught up in math and realism that they forget this is a game.

Of course its a game! That's why some of us are playing fast and loose with extrapolated math. Playing with the applied math is almost as much fun as actually playing the game using the math.  ;D

 

Offline UnLimiTeD

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #851 on: February 01, 2012, 04:12:40 AM »
That is precisely the point.
For once, a game that models space combat more or less correctly, is an exiting project.
How playable it turns out is another thing.
I have no problem with one hit kills.
I would certainly build my ships with shotguns, though.
 

Offline jseah

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #852 on: February 01, 2012, 04:35:50 AM »
but the same warhead crashing into you at 4,000km/s as you try to reach the enemy will pretty much ruin your day, a. k. a.  pulverizing the ship (although the jury's still out on how much exactly you're screwed)
Ahem, no.  You're screwed. 

I don't think anyone is arguing whether you can live from a 1ton missile hitting you at relative 4kkm/s. It's the 1kg shell that we're arguing about. 

1kg shell: 8 TJ (just under 2 kilotons)
1ton missile: 8 PJ (around 2 megatons)

That's equivalent to a really big nuclear warhead. 

You don't mess around with the petajoules.  If that thing so much as glances off, bye bye ship. 
 

Offline blue emu

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #853 on: February 01, 2012, 09:02:44 AM »
Don't know if this is the proper thread to ask this question, but...

Given the great impact that fuel and delta-v will have on this game, has the idea of including Light-Sails been considered? They would take some time to build up any signifigant velocity, but the "fuel" is free, giving them a better payload-to-gross-tonage ratio and effectively unlimited range. Possibly useful for commercial ships, and a potential way of recovering out-of-fuel powered ships.
 

Offline Arwyn

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #854 on: February 01, 2012, 01:06:54 PM »
What actually excites me about this is that Newtonian Aurora has a chance at really changing how we think of space combat. With the energy delivery that your talking about in the weapons department, its effectively eggshells armed with sledgehammers groping for each other in the dark.... except their is no darkness to sensors!

I am really interested in seeing how the sensors come into play. Since this is combustion based thrust, and hard science based, your pretty much NOT having any issue detecting anything out there. Ships are HOT compared to space, even if they are not at full thrust. So, the question then becomes when you go active to lock the target. Passives will have you spotted long before your in effective shooting range, even longer if their is a high intensity burn. On top of that, if the FTL drive generates a flash at exit, its pretty much a given that everyone is going to know when your in the neighborhood.

So, if everyone knows that there are bad guys in system, and everyone knows roughly where the bad guys are via passives, the only real issue is going to be acquisition via actives for a firing solution (especially for railguns/lasers) OR deploying remotes that are self seeking.

Now the rub is going to be, deploying missiles in and off itself is going to be blatantly obvious if they are combustion driven. As soon as a missile launches, the thermal is going to give bird away. So, the bad guys know its coming.

Since the thermal signature and power is easily read for very long distances with passive sensors, its going to be very easy to spot ships vs. missiles.

So, what this boils down to is, since everyone can see you, the only thing that's going to matter is throwing off the other guys math long enough to make sure he misses while you get an accurate shot in.

So, basically combat is going to be a giant game of chicken played with slide rules... and that should keep the pucker factor fairly high when you think about it!