Author Topic: Newtonian Aurora  (Read 147034 times)

0 Members and 4 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline jseah

  • Captain
  • **********
  • j
  • Posts: 490
Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #885 on: February 04, 2012, 09:55:44 PM »
Reducing target cross section means the fighters just get closer.  >.>

Maybe if it got reduced enough, lasers could get an intercept.  Then fighter is expanding cloud of gas. 

Kinetic kill missiles will still hit a vast majority of the time. 
 

Offline bean

  • Rear Admiral
  • **********
  • b
  • Posts: 921
  • Thanked: 58 times
Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #886 on: February 05, 2012, 12:23:59 AM »
I like the deflection shield idea.  Maybe something that gave each kinetic a percent chance to miss based its mass.  With a 1 g projectile, it would be something like 99.9%, 1 kg 99%, 10 kg 95%, and 100 kg 50%.  This would prevent the kitty litter of doom from being quite as effective.  Not sure how it works.  Magnetic field, particle beams, something like that. 
This is Excel-in-Space, not Wing Commander - Rastaman
 

Offline TheDeadlyShoe

  • Vice Admiral
  • **********
  • Posts: 1264
  • Thanked: 58 times
  • Dance Commander
Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #887 on: February 05, 2012, 12:29:37 AM »
I was thinking about a similar concept.  Afterall the TN minerals are going to become Antigravity minerals or somesuch. An anti-kinetics shield (that deflects the vast majority of energy) is at least vaguely plausible.  I say reduces energy rather than cross section because that provides an application for armor.
 

Offline Elouda

  • Gold Supporter
  • Lieutenant
  • *****
  • Posts: 194
  • Thanked: 21 times
  • Gold Supporter Gold Supporter : Support the forums with a Gold subscription
    2020 Supporter 2020 Supporter : Donate for 2020
    2021 Supporter 2021 Supporter : Donate for 2021
    2022 Supporter 2022 Supporter : Donate for 2022
Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #888 on: February 05, 2012, 01:28:30 AM »
One idea is to calculate the deflection needed based on momentum; those hits that barely 'hit' (ie on the outer edge (radius if this was 3d) of the TCS) take little energy to deflect, while those that are bullseyes are much harder/impossible. Since were using momentum, this would favour larger projectiles, giving them a reason compared to the 1g fragment spam. As in the other cases, shields will loose power even from the 'easy' deflections, until eventually the opponent either gets lucky (say lands a hit on the center 5% of the TCS) or the shields weaken enough that hits outside that stop being deflectable.

This presents an interesting trade off; larger ships will be easier to hit (larger TCS), but on the other hand have more capable shields, and probably be more survivable overall. On the other hand, since you want to make sure any hits arent right in the middle of your ship, ships with higher accelerations will likely be better off, especially as ranges close and reaction time decreases.

While I dont think 1 hit kills as a concept are bad for gameplay, uninterceptable/detectable 1 hit kills that reduce it to purely a game of chance might be. Contrast the nuclear missile exploding on contact with the hull (very much a case of can be detected, defended against, and mitigated) vs the invisible 1kg kinetic killer slug.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2012, 01:32:52 AM by Elouda »
 

Offline Steve Walmsley (OP)

  • Aurora Designer
  • Star Marshal
  • S
  • Posts: 11695
  • Thanked: 20557 times
Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #889 on: February 07, 2012, 04:36:56 PM »
I actually ran into this about 6 months ago when I was fooling around with SA/Aurora-style  (i.e. max velocity, instant acceleration) intercepts.  It (the orbits of orbits of orbits) is a REALLY nasty problem.  A couple of suggestions:

1)  Hierarchically throw away detail.  By this I mean you want to predict the intercept to the outermost orbit (i.e. the 2nd star) 1st.  That will give you an intercept time.  If the intercept time is long compared to the next period, stop there and pretend you're aiming for the central body.  If it's not recursively go to the next body.  As an example in the Earth/Luna system, first you'd calculate an intercept to Sol.  If the time was more than a year, you'd stop and simply aim at Sol.  If the time was less than a year but more than a month, you'd calculate the intercept to Earth and ignore Luna.  If less than a month, you'd simplify the orbit of Earth (see below) and intercept Luna.  Note that this assumes that an orbiter has a significantly shorter period than an orbitee - if that's not the case you've got a big problem :)

2)  Use a "constant acceleration" approximation (i.e. a Taylor expansion) to approximate orbits whose period is much longer than the intercept time.  In the example below (assuming Sol is not moving), when aiming at Luna you would not model Earth's motion as a circle.  Instead you'd calculate Earth's velocity and acceleration.  (I would calculate them relative to Sol, then add in Sol's velocity and accel to get a total.  This is because, relative to Sol, they'll always have the same magnitude and simply have different directions.)  You'd then approximate Luna's motion as a circle orbiting a object moving along a parabola.  The reason for doing this is that a) it makes the math easier and b) it's recursive - no matter how many nestings you've got, you're still always solving the same problem.  This is simply a more sophisticated version of what you're doing right now, i.e. simply using the 0'th derivative (position) to approximate the correct course.  When you get really close to the target (say an intercept time of less than Period/4), then you can approximate the targets motion too, at which point you're calculating an intercept to something with a simple parabolic path (i.e. intercepting a constant acceleration body).

3)  Looking at the above, if the "circle around a parabola" problem is too hard, then you could just ignore the orbiting body until intercept time was less than Period/4, then pop over directly to approximating its motion with constant acceleration.  So at that point the two changes  to your existing algorithm would be a) ignore nested orbits until the intercept time drops to some fraction of a period and b) approximate all orbital motion as constant velocity (no accel) or constant accel, which allows you to use the same intercept code you'd use for ships.

4)  Another thing I just thought of:  when calculating the intercept time to see if you should igore a sub-orbit, I really meant "intercept time to the closest point on the orbital circle".  In other words, you should use the motion of the central body, but subtract off the orbital radius from the distance to the central body (you should probably use this as the course target as well).  This will keep you from getting falsely small time values if you happen to be inside the orbit of whatever you're chasing.  So the real suggestion when ignoring inner orbits is to calculate the intercept to the motion (due to central body motion) of the closest point on the orbital circle to your current position.


The orbit calculations in Aurora are fairly easy as I cheat slightly :). Rather than work out objects moving in parabolas, I store the current bearing of each body from its parent body. Then, based on how much time has passed since the last orbital movement phase, I work out how far around its orbit the planet has moved (time since last move in seconds / orbital period in seconds). I multiply that result by 360 so I know the new bearing then just calculate the position of the body based on a line the length of the orbital radius drawn from the location of the parent body on the new bearing. Using this method, it is very fast to work out exactly where a moon orbiting a planet orbiting a star orbiting another star will be in a specified period of time (assuming you do all the bodies in the right order :))

I am now loading all system bodies into memory and orbital movement takes place during every sub-pulse. It's faster than I expected, much more accurate and looks cooler too :). A body won't move if the length of the time period means that its orbit changes by less than 1/10,000th of a degree.

For fleets, I now estimate the time taken to reach the target body, based on time required for acceleration from current speed to max fleet speed (if one is set), the time required for deceleration from there to the escape velocity of the planet and any time at top speed (which is sometimes zero because max speed cannot be achieved before deceleration must start). Then I work out where the planet will be after that amount of time and recalculate the fleet time of arrival using that new estimated planetary position as the destination. I run that cycle 10x and by the tenth time the estimated destination is changing by a very small amount.

However, a new problem arose despite the above. In some cases, the fleet was still chasing the planet and for the life of me I couldn't figure out why. After a few days of frustration it finally occured to me to check the speed at which the target planet (Earth in this case) was moving along its orbital path. It turns out to be 30 km/s. As the fleet was slowing to Earth's escape velocity of 11.2 km/s, Earth was moving away from it. The fleet would then speed up to catch Earth and repeat the cycle.

Which creates an entirely new problem, especially as the fleet could be approaching a body on a orbital path from any direction. The fleet would therefore be closing on the planet at different velocities depending on direction and that closing velocity would change during the approach as the planet moved on its curved path. Not to mention that a moon, its parent planet and the parent star could all be moving in different relative directions to the approaching fleet, which severely complicates any calculations regarding suitable approach speeds. Aaagh!

Therefore, instead of using a planet's escape velocity as the maximum speed at which a fleet can successfully enter close orbit, I think I will use the maximum speed of the planet through space plus its escape velocity. For example, that means that if you reach Earth at a speed of less than 41.2 km/s, you can enter orbit. In this case of approaching from behind the planet, this is perfectly reasonable in reality. In the case of approaching from ahead then I am breaking the laws of physics a little :). Of course, for moons this means including both the orbital speed of the moon and its parent planet, because for part of the moon's orbit its motion through space (from the perspective of a stationary observer - well stationary relative to the system anyway) it would be moving at a combined velocity of its own orbital speed and that of the parent planet. As you can imagine, this is more complicated for planets and moons orbiting the outer stars in a multiple system. Even given all that, I still think this is still a reasonable compromise given the horrendous maths involved in the alternative.

Because of this solution, I will compensate by also adding the motion of a moon/planet to the momentum of a ship that leaves orbit. This will require me to optionally display the current bearing and speed of all system bodies (including any motion from parent planets/stars) so that the player can see the tactical implications of leaving orbit at any given time. A combination of entering and leaving orbit could be used for slingshot maneuvers, which while unrealistic in some circumstances will at least provide the flavour of such manoeuvers and create an extra tactical dimension.

Steve
 

Offline Steve Walmsley (OP)

  • Aurora Designer
  • Star Marshal
  • S
  • Posts: 11695
  • Thanked: 20557 times
Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #890 on: February 07, 2012, 04:51:01 PM »
Regarding discussions as to whether ships should be slower or new propulsion systems should be used, or kinetic weapons should work differently, etc.

For the first version of Newtonian Aurora, I am going to try and make things feel as realistic as possible, unless the math problems are just too horrible. This means the possibility of one shot kills. I don't want to start compromising this design goal of realism due to concerns of what will happen in the game. I can honestly say that I don't know how things will work out because there are just too many factors involved to make accurate assumptions. However, some points to consider.

From a stationary ship railguns are going to be fired at probably a max of 100 km/s for early tech levels. Assuming a stationary target as well, that impact damage could be withstood for strong shiels/armour. As kinetic strikes are calculated on closing speed rather than launch speed, you will do even less damage to a target moving away from you. Stern chases won't work out well for the railguns on the chasing ship. If you move fast to try to generate higher impact damage, the limited launch speed of the railgun projectiles means that you won't be able to generate much sideways delta-V. In other words, you will only be able to shoot at targets ahead of you. The limited muzzle velocities also means accuracy is a real issue at any significant range.

In other words, kinetic warfare is going to have a host of tactical problems before you can even hit anything. Lets see how it works out in practice before changing things to prevent a problem that might not turn out to be a problem. I believe tactics that we haven't even thought of yet will evolve to match the available weapons.

Steve
 

Offline jseah

  • Captain
  • **********
  • j
  • Posts: 490
Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #891 on: February 07, 2012, 05:49:43 PM »
The Steve has spoken.  XD

A very good point of course is the accuracy.  More powerful engines reduce the time taken to displace one ship length from current path (assuming no acceleration), which reduces effective railgun range and increases railgun damage.  Which gives time for missiles to intercept approaching railgun ships. 
Notes that in Transnewtonian Aurora, missile ships already get slaughtered by beams in beam range. 


The only one I can think of being a problem is the fragmentation missile being dominating compared to nukes.  Nukes could be better at planetary bombardment, but the fragment missile has standoff range as well as lower cost. 
Fragment missiles (and suicide fighters) dodge the missile intercept problem since you don't plan to get it back and are cheap enough to launch in significant numbers. 
 

wilddog5

  • Guest
Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #892 on: February 08, 2012, 02:22:21 AM »
I don't remember seeing these questions before so if they have been asked sorry :-[

1. will their be weapon facings the reason I ask is because of the statement that the railgin will have a limited fire arch that will get smaller the faster the ship goes and that fact that ships have to turn to accelerate it would make this the logical progression in realism even if not implemented right now


2. can you target railgun shots if yes oneshot kills might not be so bad as you would end up with the same relationship as missile-AMM/pointdefence or in this case both sides using their railguns to shoot down or more likely deflect their opponents shots, after all any impact (unless it hits perfectly dead on) will generate some lateral velocity and knocking a shell a few millimeters to the left far enough away will generate a miss
 

Offline Elouda

  • Gold Supporter
  • Lieutenant
  • *****
  • Posts: 194
  • Thanked: 21 times
  • Gold Supporter Gold Supporter : Support the forums with a Gold subscription
    2020 Supporter 2020 Supporter : Donate for 2020
    2021 Supporter 2021 Supporter : Donate for 2021
    2022 Supporter 2022 Supporter : Donate for 2022
Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #893 on: February 08, 2012, 04:03:05 AM »
I think its been said that there wont be facings; the limited arc arises as a result of vector addition.

If your ship is doing 1000km/s on a bearing of 000 degrees (North), and your railgun has a launch velocity of 100km/s, then your arc of fire is 5.7 degrees to both sides of that (ie 11.4 degrees wide). This deviation would occur when 'firing' perpendicular to the line of travel, ie a bearing of 090 degrees. Anything beyond 090 would result in a smaller deviation, and a slower projectile relative to the ship (the perpendicular shot would keep pace with the ship northwards).

If youre only going at 200km/s, your arc of fire is now 26.6 degrees to both sides of your line of travel (total of 53.2 degrees). And so on. Its easy to calculate by finding the inverse tangent of the maximum railgun velocity divided by the ships speed.

An answer to your second question would be interesting.
 

Offline Steve Walmsley (OP)

  • Aurora Designer
  • Star Marshal
  • S
  • Posts: 11695
  • Thanked: 20557 times
Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #894 on: February 08, 2012, 04:21:37 AM »
I don't remember seeing these questions before so if they have been asked sorry :-[

1. will their be weapon facings the reason I ask is because of the statement that the railgin will have a limited fire arch that will get smaller the faster the ship goes and that fact that ships have to turn to accelerate it would make this the logical progression in realism even if not implemented right now


2. can you target railgun shots if yes oneshot kills might not be so bad as you would end up with the same relationship as missile-AMM/pointdefence or in this case both sides using their railguns to shoot down or more likely deflect their opponents shots, after all any impact (unless it hits perfectly dead on) will generate some lateral velocity and knocking a shell a few millimeters to the left far enough away will generate a miss

There won't be weapon facings in the same way as SFB, so you won't have a forward facing weapon or a weapon that can fire to port, etc.. One thing I am considering is whether a ship should be able to accelerate and fire beam weapons in the same increment, or at least only accelerate for part of an increment. I might add a ship 'rotation rate', which is how fast it can bring weapons to bear on different bearings, or to switch back to the necessary bearing for main engine burn. There are no turrets at the moment in Newtonian Aurora. Adding them would allow a ship to ignore its rotation rate and to fire weapons and accelerate during the same increment. The main reason for not doing this is that unless rotation rates are significantly slower than weapon recharge rates, they wouldn't have much impact.

One major decision I need to take is whether you can detect 1 kg railgun projectiles. Given their potential lethality I think navies would find a way to track them. I believe modern counter-battery radar can track shells in flight and predict their source so it is certainly possible. It's just whether it is possible at sufficient range to be useful.

Steve
 

Offline Steve Walmsley (OP)

  • Aurora Designer
  • Star Marshal
  • S
  • Posts: 11695
  • Thanked: 20557 times
Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #895 on: February 08, 2012, 04:29:22 AM »
Its easy to calculate by finding the inverse tangent of the maximum railgun velocity divided by the ships speed.

And this statement tells you all you need to know about the Aurora demographic :)

Steve
 

Offline Panopticon

  • Gold Supporter
  • Rear Admiral
  • *****
  • P
  • Posts: 884
  • Thanked: 37 times
  • Gold Supporter Gold Supporter : Support the forums with a Gold subscription
    2021 Supporter 2021 Supporter : Donate for 2021
    2022 Supporter 2022 Supporter : Donate for 2022
    2023 Supporter 2023 Supporter : Donate for 2023
Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #896 on: February 08, 2012, 04:42:53 AM »
You know how many people who play regular games like World of Warcraft of Final Fantasy are called nerds?

Aurora fans appear to be some ascended super variety that is able to harness the power of showing your work combined with reasoned intellectual debate to turn into something I am not sure English actually has a word for.
 

wilddog5

  • Guest
Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #897 on: February 08, 2012, 07:01:41 AM »
OK on the facing i just had a vision of a stoped ship firing it's broadside at an accelerating ship and the damage getting progressively greater as the moving ship got faster. ;D

for the shells, grav sensors can find a ship with a relatively low speed and grav signature so even tho the shell is smaller it's greater speed would probably generate a bigger signature, faster the shells the further their seen, this would also allow players to deflect drive by shooting of planets with def platforms/ ships (or every planet targeted would die in the first fight)

edit: this would make for an intresting choice between firing faster/ more damaging but easier to detect shells over slower/ harder to see shells that are less likely to be intercepted
« Last Edit: February 08, 2012, 07:10:35 AM by wilddog5 »
 

Offline UnLimiTeD

  • Vice Admiral
  • **********
  • U
  • Posts: 1108
  • Thanked: 1 times
Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #898 on: February 08, 2012, 07:59:21 AM »
Easier to detect also means they are faster on the target, so if that detection is simplified, you'll essentially have a tech line with "detection X seconds before impact" as an improving constant, no matter how fast the projectile.
It should be limited to a certain range, though.

I think Turrets are a good idea for countering projectiles, but in direct ship-ship combat, they will have little use.
 

Offline bean

  • Rear Admiral
  • **********
  • b
  • Posts: 921
  • Thanked: 58 times
Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #899 on: February 08, 2012, 09:01:29 AM »
I'm not sure that detecting incoming projectiles, even small ones, would be that difficult.  Any projectile that is a danger to the ship will be on a constant-bearing, decreasing-range course.  That means you only have to worry about objects that stay at one bearing, or move slowly.  I'd imagine that a filter for those parameters could increase detection range significantly.  Or to put it another way, there is a physical explanation for any special treatment given to projectile defense as opposed to general detection.
This is Excel-in-Space, not Wing Commander - Rastaman