Author Topic: Newtonian Aurora  (Read 147030 times)

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Offline Geoffroypi

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #960 on: March 12, 2012, 01:23:27 PM »
I have some question :

*Are planetary bodies will have any influence in "short range " combat ex: Will planets could be used as "shield" againt direct firing or sensor detection.     What about collateral damage in low orbit battle?
*When ships are taking off from planets or landing on it, will dense atmospheres and gravity have influence on possible components failure or even explosion, and on fuel consumption.     What about the atmospheric decceleration over time.     this feature might encourage construicting space station , or base onthe moon and asteroide.     
*It would be nice if we could automate the officer order ex: telling a task group or a ship to patrol a system without telling him to refuel, resuply fire ect.    .    .     The higher the military grade the higher they are autonomous.     it would be great even for roleplaying , seeing a commodore trying a risky and unexpected maneuver, or a coward fleeing  depending on the officer character or experience the caseulties and the opponent forces.     some orders might be denied , delayed or not fully understood , depending again on the officers.     :)
*and very important : Does all thoses orbital calculation slow down very much the game? I guess after 20 years of playing it going to be Very very very slow, if so , how will you remedy this?
*I guess orbital inclinaison isnt taken in account , considering that map are in 2d , or is it calculated virtually?
* whate about eccentricity? is eccentricity will be taken in account for bodies?
With the newtonian feature, its going to looks like Orbiter simulation plus the political and econommical feature.     ;D

Hope my english is undertandable.   
« Last Edit: March 12, 2012, 03:20:19 PM by Geoffroypi »
 

Offline Jacob/Lee

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #961 on: March 15, 2012, 05:32:40 PM »
At first, I wasn't all too excited about NA for some reason. After reading half of the Rules thread, however, I have changed my mind. Even though a good bit of that made my physics knowledge lacking brain almost kill itself, it was a very interesting read. Can't wait. :)
 

Offline UnLimiTeD

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #962 on: March 16, 2012, 05:30:42 AM »
It's sometimes a bit above my head as well.
I just do too much calculation at work already, I guess.^^
I suppose the discussions here are already half the fun in the game.  ;)
 

Offline Jacob/Lee

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #963 on: March 16, 2012, 10:44:08 PM »
Some of the abstract numbers Aurora I had are being turned into real world figures now, that's pretty cool. Think of the kind of discussions we can have with something like that...
 

Offline bean

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #964 on: March 18, 2012, 08:43:13 PM »
Some of the abstract numbers Aurora I had are being turned into real world figures now, that's pretty cool. Think of the kind of discussions we can have with something like that...
What do you mean by that?  Most of Aurora I is completely impossible as far as we know.
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Offline Moonshadow101

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #965 on: March 23, 2012, 05:35:24 PM »
I'm wondering how much of an expectation there is that some aspects of NA will filter back into regular Aurora, or eventually A2. You say it's an "Experiment" that might not even work, but regardless of whether or not it comes out as a successful spin-off, it'd be a shame if some of the things being looked at here didn't eventually make their way into the core game. I'm thinking specifically about the non-missile weapons being made more complex and detailed, longer-ranged and generally more versatile. I also like the idea of having more control over the intricacies of engine design, so every civilization in the entire galaxy doesn't have the same super-generic Ion E7s and Inertial Confinement E5s. 
 

Offline jseah

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #966 on: June 21, 2012, 10:05:34 AM »
I have been thinking about newtonian tactics and the more I think about it, the more I am convinced that small craft swarms are actually the way to go. 

Yes, I know all the arguments about fighters.  I am talking about FACs here.  Independently operating ships, made to be as tiny as possible while carrying capital-level armament.  Probably 1 to 2ktons.  Whether the engines are up-engineered is optional, probably not however. 

Essentially, each ship would carry a few missile tubes, a couple of salvoes ammo and one firecon.  Minimum armour and everything else.  PD ships are the same but with PD tubes.  Any railgun ships are likewise similar, just one firecon (which likely to be the biggest thing) attached to whatever ratio of weapons:firecon you use. 
If ships are sufficiently cheap compared to missiles, you could go suicide fighters carrying railguns. 

With the incredible damage kinetic weapons have, likely to mission kill a ship on a good hit, it appears best to simply divide your force into as many small chunks as possible since a 10kton ship costs only slightly less than 5x of a 2kton ship.  (and the 10kton jump ship for the 10kton fleet costs more than 5x of 2kton jumpships)

In fact, I could see a carrier doctrine actually winning over a Deathstar builder (ie. concentration of production into few extremely huge ships); and putting up a good fight against standard battleships + escorts doctrine (where ships range from 5ktons to ~20ktons)
Simply put, the fighters don't really have to come back if they cost less than a fleet and they can kill one. 
 

Offline PTTG

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #967 on: June 21, 2012, 07:56:26 PM »
On the other hand, a small group of battelships with extreme range and a very large number of weapons might be effective at engaging a fleet with small firecons and lower weapon velocities.
 

Offline UnLimiTeD

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #968 on: June 22, 2012, 02:19:35 AM »
The tactics to use are essentially to either
A) Evade and build cheap, or
B) Mass so much firepower in one spot that the wall of counterfire will prevent anything physical from reaching you.

C) Would be to outrange them, but the sole option to reliably do that is to outtech them, and everyone can potentially do that.

The small, low armored ships droctrine will work extremely well as long as you're in long range fight with significant momentum.
Then i 100% agree.
However, if anything gets close, and that thing is armed with lasers, that tactic may backfire.
Keep in mind that if you're moving away from a target, your kinectics will barely deal any damage, and I expect Laser batteries to be quite efficient at swatting missiles.
 

Offline swarm_sadist

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #969 on: June 23, 2012, 06:27:20 PM »
Well, using the tactics of WW1-2, and modern navies and comparing them to Newtonian Aurora, you have:
1) Fleet-in-being: The fact that there is a fleet somewhere out there, even if in orbit around a planet, means you must also place a fleet in proximity, in case they move for something important. They don't ever have to move away from their planet, but just being there forces you to commit a fleet to counter their fleet.

NA: Because ships are so easily detectable with planetary sensors, and it would take the enemy quite a while to reach your planet, this doctrine is valid. It's actually more valid in space than it ever was in navy warfare. You would want a fleet of heavy cruisers, as you could build more, spreading them out and bog down the enemy over multiple systems.

2) Battle Fleet Concentration: You create fleets so massive in firepower and numbers that a single fleet could wipe out any fleet of the opposing navy. For this you would need massive battleships, escorts and pickets. By applying the fleet against the enemies most valued planet, you would be able to disrupt their operations.

NA: Because fleets are going to be so slow (in comparison to aurora), this might not work as planned. You just won't be able to build enough ships to control an area. Plus, any ships you do manage to build will be used to support your fleets in operation. It does have the benefit of destroying any gunboat navies you encounter. A battle fleet would be the most capable of penetrating an enemy held system.

3) Wolfpacks: Small ships, using the best stealth technology available, will attack weaker enemies in overwhelming numbers. The small size allows them to evade most active detection methods, while reducing their costs and increasing the number you can field at once.

NA: This one is probably the best. While they are less effective because of the square-cube law, their main target would be civilian traffic and support ships. Their weapons are smaller, therefor exponentially lower range and damage, but 30+ could easily take down a lone battlecruiser. Their high speed would also allow them to dictate range and engagement, choosing instead to run from large fleets. This would of course mean that another form of doctrine is required to protect against fleet concentrations. You would also be able to spread them across a solar system, allowing for rapid response to incursion.

4) Carrier Fleet: A large ship housing a bunch of small, independently powered vehicles for use well outside the motherships area of operations. The carrier would carry multiple types of craft, each specialized for it's intended purpose. These craft can be swapped out to allow for different configurations.

NA: The primary benefit is acceleration, with a fighter being able to change it's speed and vector with much less fuel than a capital ship. The disadvantage is that the guns that a fighter would carry would have lower damage and range than any capital ship weapon. The advantage of missile carrying fighters would depend on if fire control ranges were capped, if enemies could jam missiles in flight, or if ECM became exponentially stronger then farther away the target is.
 

Offline jseah

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #970 on: June 23, 2012, 06:54:57 PM »
The fact that single hits cripple entire ships, regardless of size (within practical limits), under certain not-so-rare circumstances of an intercept, strongly strongly discourages building big ships. 

Because big ships are costly to maneuver, and are a big expensive target, you tempt enemies to try a suicidal intercept to take it out. 
And due to how acceleration compares with velocity, taking days to change your relative speed simply worsens the situation. 
 

Offline procyon

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #971 on: June 23, 2012, 09:33:54 PM »
Quote from: swarm_sadist
Well, using the tactics of WW1-2, and modern navies and comparing them to Newtonian Aurora, you have:
1) Fleet-in-being: The fact that there is a fleet somewhere out there, even if in orbit around a planet, means you must also place a fleet in proximity, in case they move for something important. They don't ever have to move away from their planet, but just being there forces you to commit a fleet to counter their fleet.

NA: Because ships are so easily detectable with planetary sensors, and it would take the enemy quite a while to reach your planet, this doctrine is valid. It's actually more valid in space than it ever was in navy warfare. You would want a fleet of heavy cruisers, as you could build more, spreading them out and bog down the enemy over multiple systems.

Disagree in theory.  If you concentrate a fleet to protect a point, you limits its engagement ability.  Counter manuevers/fire will be effective against the entire fleet.  Weapons the fleet can't stop will leave them with little abiltiy to deal with a threat without risking destruction of the fleet.


Quote
2) Battle Fleet Concentration: You create fleets so massive in firepower and numbers that a single fleet could wipe out any fleet of the opposing navy. For this you would need massive battleships, escorts and pickets. By applying the fleet against the enemies most valued planet, you would be able to disrupt their operations.

NA: Because fleets are going to be so slow (in comparison to aurora), this might not work as planned. You just won't be able to build enough ships to control an area. Plus, any ships you do manage to build will be used to support your fleets in operation. It does have the benefit of destroying any gunboat navies you encounter. A battle fleet would be the most capable of penetrating an enemy held system.

Tentatively agree.  I think at least with what you are saying.
You will still need strength in numbers.  But most likely dispersed.  A single concentration will limit your options/abilities.  A single big ship could be taken out by a single hit.  Multiple small and cheap ships will be better able to control area and respond to/bracket enemies.

Quote
3) Wolfpacks: Small ships, using the best stealth technology available, will attack weaker enemies in overwhelming numbers. The small size allows them to evade most active detection methods, while reducing their costs and increasing the number you can field at once.

NA: This one is probably the best. While they are less effective because of the square-cube law, their main target would be civilian traffic and support ships. Their weapons are smaller, therefor exponentially lower range and damage, but 30+ could easily take down a lone battlecruiser. Their high speed would also allow them to dictate range and engagement, choosing instead to run from large fleets. This would of course mean that another form of doctrine is required to protect against fleet concentrations. You would also be able to spread them across a solar system, allowing for rapid response to incursion.

Don't have a clue how stealth will work in NA, so no idea. 
I don't expect that hiding in space will be very effective.  Now, firing/launching from far enough out that they can't do anything about it before you are gone - that is a different issue.
But with the high fuel needs for a battle of manuever, a ship capable of multiple turns at anything but slow speeds will have almost no room for weapons.  As for 30+ to take down a battlecruiser, I would see that as overkill or poor tactical position.
But only time will tell on this.

Quote
4) Carrier Fleet: A large ship housing a bunch of small, independently powered vehicles for use well outside the motherships area of operations. The carrier would carry multiple types of craft, each specialized for it's intended purpose. These craft can be swapped out to allow for different configurations.

NA: The primary benefit is acceleration, with a fighter being able to change it's speed and vector with much less fuel than a capital ship. The disadvantage is that the guns that a fighter would carry would have lower damage and range than any capital ship weapon. The advantage of missile carrying fighters would depend on if fire control ranges were capped, if enemies could jam missiles in flight, or if ECM became exponentially stronger then farther away the target is.

The problem with a manueverable fighter is the same for a ship.  If it can actually manuever much, it is almost all fuel.  What it will need is parasites with endurance.  They will need to be capable of reaching distant points on widely differing vectors and still rendevous for pick up (or not if you are a little more ruthless...).
Small weapons won't necessarily be a big problem if you can bracket a target.  If it runs from some to reduce their damage, it will be closing with other turning them into one hit one kill wonders.  Either that or it must hold still or to very low velocities to minimize damage.  But I forsee stationary (or nearly so) targets to be tanamount to suicide in NA combat.
Bracketing a target with several vessels on widely divergent and random vectors/courses will be the best defense/offense as manuevering against one will make them vulnerable to the others. 
I really forsee the most dangerous and difficult of the NA combats to resemble zero G furballs of WWII.  Formations will just get you killed.

But I do agree with the smaller craft in multiples to be the way to go, at least when opposed to single or few larger vessels.  At least in combat circumstances.  Mostly fuel, a weapon (or better if possible, two differing weapon types - one guided and one unguided), and something to detect/engage targets.  For a combat vessel where one railgun projectile/nuke will possibly destroy even the most massive ship - anything else is just money thrown away when your craft takes a hit.  If you don't need it for a fight, put it on something that won't get in one.
My plan for any ship not designed as a combatant will be to always make sure it is capable to jump away at any given time.  If in a system, try to make it so it can warm up and jump before a weapon could reach it.  If it jumps into a system, land so far out that it will be able to reset before any weapon can respond.  In NA, landing way out will take no more fuel to reach the inner system than landing closer.  Coasting is just coasting, and distance will equal safety.  If it takes me a while to reach the inner system, big deal.  I would expect an exploration ship to be designed for extended ops.  And if it will take me a month to get there, it will take a while for a weapon to reach me....
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Offline procyon

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #972 on: June 24, 2012, 12:25:36 AM »
Somehow managed to miss these posts.  Obviously caffeine deficient here tonight.... ;)

Quote from: jseah
I have been thinking about newtonian tactics and the more I think about it, the more I am convinced that small craft swarms are actually the way to go. 

Yes, I know all the arguments about fighters.  I am talking about FACs here.  Independently operating ships, made to be as tiny as possible while carrying capital-level armament.  Probably 1 to 2ktons.  Whether the engines are up-engineered is optional, probably not however.
......
In fact, I could see a carrier doctrine actually winning over a Deathstar builder (ie. concentration of production into few extremely huge ships); and putting up a good fight against standard battleships + escorts doctrine (where ships range from 5ktons to ~20ktons)
Simply put, the fighters don't really have to come back if they cost less than a fleet and they can kill one. 

Sounds like we are on the same page.  Of course the game may prove us wrong.

Quote from: PTTG
On the other hand, a small group of battelships with extreme range and a very large number of weapons might be effective at engaging a fleet with small firecons and lower weapon velocities.

If you could achieve near parity in numbers, and had an advantage in achieving intercepts, you could win.  But you may still lose economically.  You will likely have to destroy far more of their vessels to equal the loss of just one or two of your battleships.  They will likely be able to replace their losses faster than you also.  If it is a battle for their homeworld, it wouldn't matter.  If this turns into a battle over several systems, battleships might bankrupt you.

Quote from: UnLimiTeD
The tactics to use are essentially to either
A) Evade and build cheap, or

This will be my first strategy if this comes to fruition.  Hope it works.

Quote
B) Mass so much firepower in one spot that the wall of counterfire will prevent anything physical from reaching you.

This is going to depend on how well kinetic rounds can be targetted/saturate an area.  And if they can be stopped.  If they are nearly impossible to detect/stop a bunch of ships just becomes more objects in the 'beaten zone'.


Quote
C) Would be to outrange them, but the sole option to reliably do that is to outtech them, and everyone can potentially do that.

Wars have almost always been decided by who can shoot the farthest and hit what they are aiming at.  May that always be in your favor...

Quote
The small, low armored ships droctrine will work extremely well as long as you're in long range fight with significant momentum.
Then i 100% agree.

Hence a doctorine of many ships firing from different points and with different course/velocities.  This will rob an opponent of opportunities to manuever that will not be creating high momentum impacts.

Quote
However, if anything gets close, and that thing is armed with lasers, that tactic may backfire.
Keep in mind that if you're moving away from a target, your kinectics will barely deal any damage, and I expect Laser batteries to be quite efficient at swatting missiles.

I do see laser and rail guns being assured kills in close.  Lasers will likely have a slight edge, but it will be more of a 'I got to see my weapon destroy my target before his kinetic rounds vaporized me...' sort of edge.  If both sides have them, it will likely be MAD.  Particularly with railguns as both may be able to effectively target all of an opponents ships before their ordinance reaches you.  Hence the doctorine of not putting all your eggs in one basket.  I have a feeling in NA that combat in space will be a lonely thing.  You will be a long ways from anyone friendly as you trade death across the long dark....

Only actual play will tell though.
Have I mentioned I am really hoping this happens...

 ;D
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Offline Steve Walmsley (OP)

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #973 on: June 24, 2012, 06:24:23 AM »
Have I mentioned I am really hoping this happens...
 ;D

Me too :)

The break to work on normal Aurora has taken a lot longer than I planned but I will get back to Newtonian eventually :)

Steve
 

Offline UnLimiTeD

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Re: Newtonian Aurora
« Reply #974 on: June 25, 2012, 04:34:21 AM »
Well, you improved a lot that may come back here, didn't you.
I only fear that NA might turn out to be totally unplayable, what with setting dozen of waypoints to spread out a force of small ship.