Author Topic: Change Log for 6.40 Discussion  (Read 30919 times)

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Offline bean

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Re: Change Log for 6.40 Discussion
« Reply #120 on: January 17, 2014, 12:25:49 PM »
Glad to see the updates to shipping, although I would like to echo the idea of some mechanism to more accurately match ship types to demand.  One way to implement it (not sure how difficult this is) would be to track total earnings for each ship, and divide that by the time in service, and then bias towards building ships with high numbers.  I know I often end up with too many colony ships and not enough freighters.
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Offline Sematary

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Re: Change Log for 6.40 Discussion
« Reply #121 on: January 19, 2014, 03:51:13 PM »
Glad to see the updates to shipping, although I would like to echo the idea of some mechanism to more accurately match ship types to demand.  One way to implement it (not sure how difficult this is) would be to track total earnings for each ship, and divide that by the time in service, and then bias towards building ships with high numbers.  I know I often end up with too many colony ships and not enough freighters.

With that you might end up with infinite feedback loop. Say you start with three colony ships and one freighter. As the ships get older chances are the colony ships will be replaced while the freighter will not be. Which leads to a bunch of fast colony ships (as you get engine upgrades) and one slow freighter. Since the colony ships are faster they do more runs which gives them higher earnings while the freighter has lower because it can't keep up. Keep in mind the previous was closer to an extreme just to better show the argument.

Also the problem with your math is that would trend toward newer faster ships being built because if you have a ship that has a total earning of 30,000 but has been in service for 3 years and a ship that has 11,000 total earning with only 1 year service the ship with one year will be built. The problem with that is the 11,000 ship might have more because of faster speeds or maybe a new colony was made next to an old one and so there was plenty of time for the new ship to do a ton of short colonist trips to get the new colony up to 25 million. I would suggest instead of dividing by time in service you might want to divide by (some number) - years in service. That would tend toward replacing older ships with more than one replacement and just have a check when the replacement is built to see if there is a similar class that is faster and/or more range and/or has similar to greater cargo capacity.
 

Offline bean

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Re: Change Log for 6.40 Discussion
« Reply #122 on: January 21, 2014, 11:17:56 AM »
With that you might end up with infinite feedback loop. Say you start with three colony ships and one freighter. As the ships get older chances are the colony ships will be replaced while the freighter will not be. Which leads to a bunch of fast colony ships (as you get engine upgrades) and one slow freighter. Since the colony ships are faster they do more runs which gives them higher earnings while the freighter has lower because it can't keep up. Keep in mind the previous was closer to an extreme just to better show the argument.

Also the problem with your math is that would trend toward newer faster ships being built because if you have a ship that has a total earning of 30,000 but has been in service for 3 years and a ship that has 11,000 total earning with only 1 year service the ship with one year will be built. The problem with that is the 11,000 ship might have more because of faster speeds or maybe a new colony was made next to an old one and so there was plenty of time for the new ship to do a ton of short colonist trips to get the new colony up to 25 million. I would suggest instead of dividing by time in service you might want to divide by (some number) - years in service. That would tend toward replacing older ships with more than one replacement and just have a check when the replacement is built to see if there is a similar class that is faster and/or more range and/or has similar to greater cargo capacity.
I think you're missing both the point and a couple of key ideas about my proposal.  The point is that the system for evaluating civilian ship purchases makes decisions untroubled by any hint of economic reality, producing results that are frustrating to the player.  I can use three examples to illustrate this.  First, take colonizing Mars in a Solar System start.  Normally, I've found that the civilians produce more colony ships than they need, while their freighters work constantly.  A real businessman would obviously build more freighters, but the game doesn't.  This slows down colonization, soaks up money from the shipping lines, and reduces the player's revenue.  Second, your scenario, which would have to involve a close colony with little or no colonization cost.  In this case, the shipping lines would and should build more colony ships and less freighters.  Third, in my most recent game I SMd a starting system with 5 developed planets.  Freighters were making a run every few days, while colony ships might get in one payload a month.  Obviously, accountants would buy freighters and nothing else.
I can see where you're coming from, but the implementation would be slightly different than you see it.  This would be a bias to the ships bought, not a wholesale replacement for the current system, at maybe a 50/50 mix of the two.  So there would still be some of everything built, even if it's not terribly profitable (for gameplay, if nothing else).  Second, it wouldn't be a case of "pick whatever made the most money over the last year, and buy it".  You would probably weight the random selection by the relative income over the period.  So if your average freighter made 1100 and your average colony ship 900, the game would pick the freighter 55% of the time.  Obviously, this isn't a huge difference, and the model would only really come into play when there is a gross imbalance between the earnings of the two types.  That is exactly as intended.  Third, the idea of an infinite feedback loop assumes that there is no feedback from the environment the ships are working in.  For three fast colony ships to make lots of money, there would need to be somewhere to send the colonists, and to keep sending them over the long term.  For them to gain an advantage over freighters, they would need to have a destination that has a low colony cost.  Otherwise, they'd sit idle, while waiting for the freighter to carry the infrastructure. 
I know there are flaws in my model.  It's not perfect, and it might need to be farther modified by the relative build costs of the various types of ships.  That said, what I mostly want is a way of tailoring the merchant fleet more closely to individual game conditions.  I think this is the best reasonably simple automatic way of doing so, although allowing the player to manually bias the decision would also work.
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Offline Bremen

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Re: Change Log for 6.40 Discussion
« Reply #123 on: January 28, 2014, 06:50:22 PM »
Aurora 6.4, Galactic War Crimes edition :)

Probably not a unit I'll use, but it definitely adds some interesting Roleplay and storytelling possibilities. Really loving the changes for 6.4 so far.
 

Offline Erik L

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Re: Change Log for 6.40 Discussion
« Reply #124 on: January 28, 2014, 10:55:53 PM »
Forced labor battalions... muahahaha! I mean... muahahaha!

Offline Prince of Space

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Re: Change Log for 6.40 Discussion
« Reply #125 on: January 28, 2014, 11:49:26 PM »
So a construction factory costs 120 BP and requires 50,000 workers, while a forced labor camp costs 40 BP and 10,000 "workers," and these both produce the same amount of build points?

It must be those damn construction unions driving down productivity with their sick leave and their mandated break time and their whining about how we have to stop the machinery every time someone falls into the neutronium extruder.
 

Offline MarcAFK

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Re: Change Log for 6.40 Discussion
« Reply #126 on: January 29, 2014, 12:24:38 AM »
Efficient, can I launch missiles against my own colony on mars to make it surrender to me so I can subjugate it, then conscript the entire population into forced labour battalions for cheaper production?
Also I'm wondering what made Steve add this mechanic, I'm sure both the Russian occupied Chinese colony and Chinese occupied Russian colony wouldn't dream of stooping to atrocities like this.
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Offline Nathan_

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Re: Change Log for 6.40 Discussion
« Reply #127 on: January 29, 2014, 01:14:50 AM »
Generally I find ground forces cumbersome to use in large numbers.

Quote
Also I'm wondering what made Steve add this mechanic
nostalgia for Moo3?
 

Offline Black

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Re: Change Log for 6.40 Discussion
« Reply #128 on: January 29, 2014, 01:32:08 AM »
Well Jovians could use some slaves when they conquer Sol, they are inspired by Roman empire after all.
 

Offline chrislocke2000

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Re: Change Log for 6.40 Discussion
« Reply #129 on: January 29, 2014, 02:17:49 AM »
I like the idea of the forced labour but not sure the mechanics are that helpful. Don't ground force training facilities suffer the same penalties as other industry? Ie whilst the unit costs just 40 BPs won't it still take an awful long time to construct whilst you are sat at 20% efficiency. It seems to me that by the time the first of these are built you should have substantially improved industrial performance in any case given the normal rate of population alignment?
 

Offline Steve Walmsley

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Re: Change Log for 6.40 Discussion
« Reply #130 on: January 29, 2014, 03:43:05 AM »
So a construction factory costs 120 BP and requires 50,000 workers, while a forced labor camp costs 40 BP and 10,000 "workers," and these both produce the same amount of build points?

It must be those damn construction unions driving down productivity with their sick leave and their mandated break time and their whining about how we have to stop the machinery every time someone falls into the neutronium extruder.

TBH I thought construction factories were 25,000 workers but you are right :) I might up it to 20K workers then. Even so, it's not 50,000 workers for a factory but rather 50,000 population. A lot of members of a population are not productive (children, non-working spouses, those who have retired, etc.) and the factory is likely working 8 hours a day, plus all the overheads of a normal business (Payroll, HR, Facilities, Legal etc.). Compare that to 10K active workers (or probably 20K) who get shot if they don't work hard.
 

Offline Steve Walmsley

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Re: Change Log for 6.40 Discussion
« Reply #131 on: January 29, 2014, 03:44:17 AM »
I like the idea of the forced labour but not sure the mechanics are that helpful. Don't ground force training facilities suffer the same penalties as other industry? Ie whilst the unit costs just 40 BPs won't it still take an awful long time to construct whilst you are sat at 20% efficiency. It seems to me that by the time the first of these are built you should have substantially improved industrial performance in any case given the normal rate of population alignment?

Excellent point. I'll rake a look at this when I get home tonight.

 

Offline Prince of Space

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Re: Change Log for 6.40 Discussion
« Reply #132 on: January 29, 2014, 09:59:52 AM »
What if instead of training the forced labor units in situ, you could train something like a forced labor cadre on a more established world? Then you load up the officers, guards, and German shepherds into a transport and ship them off to the conquered/occupied/subjugated world. You could target the population in the ground combat window and have them round up volunteers. Or you could just have them rounded up automatically once the cadre is on the same body as an appropriate population.

The thousands of workers don't need to be sent to boot camp, they just need to be handed laser shovels and taught obedience.
 

Offline MarcAFK

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Re: Change Log for 6.40 Discussion
« Reply #133 on: January 29, 2014, 10:04:34 AM »
I really like that idea.
" Why is this godforsaken hellhole worth dying for? "
". . .  We know nothing about them, their language, their history or what they look like.  But we can assume this.  They stand for everything we don't stand for.  Also they told me you guys look like dorks. "
"Stop exploding, you cowards.  "
 

Offline Nathan_

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Re: Change Log for 6.40 Discussion
« Reply #134 on: January 29, 2014, 12:23:16 PM »
Will FLU strength be counted against Police Strength?