Author Topic: Learning to do Missiles  (Read 1799 times)

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Offline FictionXVI

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Learning to do Missiles
« on: August 07, 2014, 05:18:55 PM »
Hello everyone!! This is my first post so once again Hello.  I'm kinda new to the game but I have figured out most of the basic stuff like doing research constructing things ect.  ect.  but one problem I am having, and it's making the game less fun to play, is missile design.  After reading the wiki and how they talked about certain percentages should go toward certain things (roughly) I had a swing at it.  I found the missiles I was designing were, to put it bluntly, absolute crap.  They were always to slow and wouldn't hit the broadside of a barn. . . my question to you guys is what am I missing? Another (maybe better question) is where could I get some resources on what good missile design looks like? It is kinda hard to find information on this game sadly (despite it's clear awesomeness) that's super noob friendly. . . anyways thanks too anyone who took the time to read this I'm sure it's 100 billionth and half post asking silly questions about missiles.

-FictionXVI
 

Offline GreatTuna

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Re: Learning to do Missiles
« Reply #1 on: August 07, 2014, 07:17:22 PM »
Hello everyone!! This is my first post so once again Hello.  I'm kinda new to the game but I have figured out most of the basic stuff like doing research constructing things ect.  ect.  but one problem I am having, and it's making the game less fun to play, is missile design.  After reading the wiki and how they talked about certain percentages should go toward certain things (roughly) I had a swing at it.  I found the missiles I was designing were, to put it bluntly, absolute crap.  They were always to slow and wouldn't hit the broadside of a barn. . . my question to you guys is what am I missing?
To tell you what is wrong with your missiles, we need to see your missiles.  ;)
Another (maybe better question) is where could I get some resources on what good missile design looks like?
"Good" is a relative term. It depends on what you need from missile.

I personally prefer fast, short-ranged and agile missiles that are able to dodge enemy's point defense.
I usually dedicate most of the mass (about 30%-50%) to the missile engine (with maximum power modifier of course), then give about 15%-30% to agility (so the missile would miss less often), give very little fuel (0.01-0.5 MSP, no more), and give the rest of mass to warhead.
As for examples:

This missile is using somewhat early technologies, save for engine, which is Internal Confinement Fusion. It is conventional anti-ship missile.
Code: [Select]
Missile Size: 5 MSP  (0.25 HS)     Warhead: 9    Armour: 0     Manoeuvre Rating: 15
Speed: 28000 km/s    Engine Endurance: 50 minutes   Range: 84.0m km
Cost Per Missile: 4.48
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 420%   3k km/s 135%   5k km/s 84%   10k km/s 42%
Materials Required:    2.25x Tritanium   2.23x Gallicite   Fuel x625

These types of missiles are using late-game technologies:

This is regular Anti-ship missile.
Code: [Select]
Missile Size: 5 MSP  (0.25 HS)     Warhead: 27    Armour: 0     Manoeuvre Rating: 36
Speed: 120000 km/s    Engine Endurance: 12 minutes   Range: 87.4m km
Cost Per Missile: 16.81
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 4320%   3k km/s 1440%   5k km/s 864%   10k km/s 432%
Materials Required:    6.75x Tritanium   10.06x Gallicite   Fuel x1250

This is Anti-missile missile, designed with high speed (0.5 MSP to engine) and agility (0.31 MSP) for intercepting enemy missiles.
Code: [Select]
Missile Size: 1 MSP  (0.05 HS)     Warhead: 1    Armour: 0     Manoeuvre Rating: 60
Speed: 150000 km/s    Engine Endurance: 4 minutes   Range: 33.9m km
Cost Per Missile: 3.117
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 9000%   3k km/s 3000%   5k km/s 1800%   10k km/s 900%
Materials Required:    0.25x Tritanium   2.867x Gallicite   Fuel x250

This is Size 1 Anti-ship missile. Designed for launching in large salvos for massive damage.
Code: [Select]
Missile Size: 1 MSP  (0.05 HS)     Warhead: 5    Armour: 0     Manoeuvre Rating: 20
Speed: 150000 km/s    Engine Endurance: 4 minutes   Range: 33.9m km
Cost Per Missile: 3.317
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 3000%   3k km/s 1000%   5k km/s 600%   10k km/s 300%
Materials Required:    1.25x Tritanium   2.067x Gallicite   Fuel x250

This heavy torpedo is alternative to harmless Sensarray buoy, equipped with sensors for homing in to enemy (because while buoy launchers have MFC, they don't necessarily have actual sensors), ECM and rather large warhead.
Code: [Select]
Missile Size: 24 MSP  (1.2 HS)     Warhead: 144    Armour: 0     Manoeuvre Rating: 40
Speed: 48000 km/s    Engine Endurance: 21 minutes   Range: 60.0m km
Active Sensor Strength: 2.4   Sensitivity Modifier: 240%
Resolution: 1    Maximum Range vs 50 ton object (or larger): 570 000 km
ECM Level: 5
Cost Per Missile: 71.204
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 1920%   3k km/s 640%   5k km/s 384%   10k km/s 192%
Materials Required:    36x Tritanium   1.44x Boronide   4.9x Uridium   28.864x Gallicite   Fuel x5000

Finally, this missile is designed for taking out enemy populations.
I wasn't using them because capturing populations is way more profitable.
Code: [Select]
Missile Size: 10 MSP  (0.5 HS)     Warhead: 25.6    Armour: 0     Manoeuvre Rating: 10
Speed: 14400 km/s    Engine Endurance: 11 minutes   Range: 9.1m km
Active Sensor Strength: 0.96   Sensitivity Modifier: 240%
Resolution: 1    Maximum Range vs 50 ton object (or larger): 230 000 km
Cost Per Missile: 35.336
Radiation Damage: 640
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 144%   3k km/s 40%   5k km/s 28.8%   10k km/s 14.4%
Materials Required:    32x Tritanium   0.576x Boronide   0.96x Uridium   1.8x Gallicite   Fuel x2020
 

Offline FictionXVI

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Re: Learning to do Missiles
« Reply #2 on: August 07, 2014, 08:33:30 PM »
Okay so this is my first attempt at an anti missile missile.  Side note I am using magneto-plasma drives. . . .

Code: [Select]
Missile Size: 1 MSP  (0.05 HS)     Warhead: 1    Armour: 0     Manoeuvre Rating: 10
Speed: 16000 km/s    Engine Endurance: 46 minutes   Range: 44.0m km
Cost Per Missile: 0.45
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 160%   3k km/s 50%   5k km/s 32%   10k km/s 16%
Materials Required:    0.25x Tritanium   0.2x Gallicite   Fuel x250

Development Cost for Project: 45RP

And an anti ship missile

Code: [Select]
Missile Size: 4 MSP  (0.2 HS)     Warhead: 6    Armour: 0     Manoeuvre Rating: 16
Speed: 8000 km/s    Engine Endurance: 69 minutes   Range: 33.0m km
Cost Per Missile: 2.348
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 128%   3k km/s 32%   5k km/s 25.6%   10k km/s 12.8%
Materials Required:    1.5x Tritanium   0.848x Gallicite   Fuel x750

Development Cost for Project: 235RP

How they looking so far??
 

Offline Barkhorn

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Re: Learning to do Missiles
« Reply #3 on: August 07, 2014, 08:37:44 PM »
What I do is first I decide how big the missile will be.  Anti-missile missiles are always size 1 in my book, while I tend to make size 4-8 anti-ship missiles.  Next, I decide how much warhead I need.  AMM's only ever need 1WH, since missiles almost never have armor.  ASM's tend to be a square number, since that provides the best penetration for their size.  for instance, WH4 missiles will damage 3 tiles on the first layer, and 1 on the second.  WH9 damages 5 on the first, 3 on the second, and 1 on the third.  So now I know how much bang I need, but how much msp do I have to spend on WH to get that bang?  Look at your warhead tech level.  Each tech level provides a multiplier on warhead strength, such that warhead tech level 10 provides 10 times what you spend on warhead msp.  So if I spend 1 msp on warhead, I get a missile with WH10.  I'm not sure exactly how the rounding works for fractional WH values, but this provides a good enough estimate.  So lets say I'm making an AMM.  I know I have warhead tech 10, and need WH1.  So I provide 0.1 msp to warhead.  Next I make a really powerful engine, since this is going to be an AMM.  Speed is everything with these.  I might make a 0.7msp engine, with a pretty high power modifier.  For ASM's I might use a similar percentage of engine mass, but on a lower power modifier, to save fuel.  Next, I find how much fuel it needs to reach the desired range, which is based on the fire control that'll be firing this missile.  For AMM's that usually ends up around 0.05 msp.  Then, I spend the last of my 0.15 msp on agility.  This might decrease the range a little, so I might go down to 0.14 msp to agility and bump the fuel up to 0.06.

Your AMM shoots further than your ASM, which is pretty bad.  Basically it means you could block their missiles at 44m km, but couldn't shoot back till they close to 33m km.  Both missiles are pretty slow too, I recommend using a higher power modifier, and researching better fuel efficiency.
 

Offline FictionXVI

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Re: Learning to do Missiles
« Reply #4 on: August 07, 2014, 08:46:05 PM »
Oh wow I didn't even notice (or think about) the range thing. . .  alright I redesigned my anti-ship missile following your advice (except I haven't advanced my tech) and this is a new set up.  It could still be terrible but eh I'm learning haha

Code: [Select]
Missile Size: 4 MSP  (0.2 HS)     Warhead: 5    Armour: 0     Manoeuvre Rating: 14
Speed: 10400 km/s    Engine Endurance: 88 minutes   Range: 55.0m km
Cost Per Missile: 2.09
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 145.6%   3k km/s 42%   5k km/s 29.1%   10k km/s 14.6%
Materials Required:    1.25x Tritanium   0.84x Gallicite   Fuel x1250

Development Cost for Project: 209RP
 

Offline FictionXVI

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Re: Learning to do Missiles
« Reply #5 on: August 07, 2014, 08:50:26 PM »
OR maybe this even. . . I think a mistake I was making was having 13 smaller engines rather than designing a 1 big more fuel efficient engine that gave the same amount of power

Code: [Select]
Missile Size: 4 MSP  (0.2 HS)     Warhead: 5    Armour: 0     Manoeuvre Rating: 16
Speed: 10400 km/s    Engine Endurance: 203 minutes   Range: 126.8m km
Cost Per Missile: 2.282
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 166.4%   3k km/s 48%   5k km/s 33.3%   10k km/s 16.6%
Materials Required:    1.25x Tritanium   1.032x Gallicite   Fuel x500

Development Cost for Project: 228RP
 

Offline NihilRex

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Re: Learning to do Missiles
« Reply #6 on: August 07, 2014, 09:16:45 PM »
OR maybe this even. . . I think a mistake I was making was having 13 smaller engines rather than designing a 1 big more fuel efficient engine that gave the same amount of power

Code: [Select]
Missile Size: 4 MSP  (0.2 HS)     Warhead: 5    Armour: 0     Manoeuvre Rating: 16
Speed: 10400 km/s    Engine Endurance: 203 minutes   Range: 126.8m km
Cost Per Missile: 2.282
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 166.4%   3k km/s 48%   5k km/s 33.3%   10k km/s 16.6%
Materials Required:    1.25x Tritanium   1.032x Gallicite   Fuel x500

Development Cost for Project: 228RP

That isn't too bad.  Do you have the sensors to make full use of that range?  If yes, great.  If no, remove fuel.  If your sensor range is a lot larger than that, increase range may be a good choice.
 

Offline FictionXVI

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Re: Learning to do Missiles
« Reply #7 on: August 07, 2014, 10:16:29 PM »
Okay so final version what does everyone think?

Code: [Select]
Missile Size: 4.5 MSP  (0.225 HS)     Warhead: 4    Armour: 0     Manoeuvre Rating: 13
Speed: 18500 km/s    Engine Endurance: 51 minutes   Range: 56.4m km
Cost Per Missile: 2.296
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 240.5%   3k km/s 78%   5k km/s 48.1%   10k km/s 24%
Materials Required:    1x Tritanium   1.296x Gallicite   Fuel x250

Development Cost for Project: 230RP
 

Offline Montecchio

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Re: Learning to do Missiles
« Reply #8 on: August 07, 2014, 11:11:15 PM »
If you absolutely cannot fit your design into 4 MSP, then go up to 5 so you can have a bigger engine / more fuel / ablative armor / on-board sensor(s) / higher agility / whatever, because if your missile is size 4.5, you'll need a size 5 missile launcher to fire it anyway.
 

Offline MarcAFK

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Re: Learning to do Missiles
« Reply #9 on: August 07, 2014, 11:12:53 PM »
Something else to watch out for is you should only use whole number sized missiles otherwise you're wasting the capacity of your launchers.
At early tech levels your missiles are going to need smallish warheads and be mostly engines.
I wouldn't want less than one point of warhead per missile size though, otherwise your AMM's are basically better offensively than your ASM's, albiet with more range.
That speed is pretty good as is the range, try bumping the warhead up to 6 points, or whatever you can do to make it a nice round size 5, put the rest into agility.
Keep in mind that the earliest enemies you meet will probably have ships going 2-6,000 km/s so an offensive missile doing 15,000 km/s is quite effective.
Now just remember the most important rule of missile warfare, "overwhelming salvos".
The more missiles you launch at each target the greater your chance of overwhelming point defense, of course missiles are expensive and it's a waste using all your missiles if you don't have to, it's best to launch a largish test salvo at the first ship you encounter of a class then reduce the salvo size appropriately depending on interception and the number needed to cripple the ship.
Or alternatively put good sensors onto the missiles so that any which miss can target other ships in the same area.
EM sensors will prefer retargeting onto ships with large shields or sensors, thermal sensors will prefer to retarget onto the fastest ships in the area, and active sensors probably give the best range per size point but require a little luck in regards to the hull size you encounter.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2014, 11:20:48 PM by MarcAFK »
" Why is this godforsaken hellhole worth dying for? "
". . .  We know nothing about them, their language, their history or what they look like.  But we can assume this.  They stand for everything we don't stand for.  Also they told me you guys look like dorks. "
"Stop exploding, you cowards.  "
 

Offline alex_brunius

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Re: Learning to do Missiles
« Reply #10 on: August 08, 2014, 03:25:28 AM »
For me 10,000-18,000 km/s is quite slow at magneto plasma levels.

I research "Maximum engine power modifier" to the same level ( RP cost ) as engine techs, so at magneto plasma you have x2.5 or x5 for missiles.

This usually let me create AMMs and missiles closer to the vicinity of 50,000 km/s speed.

It is also worth noting that most of the time it's useless to have longer range AMMs then you can detect the enemy missiles at, so fuel/range for those can often be even lower unless you have really massive sensors.
( look at "Range vs Size 6 Missile (or smaller)" in active sensor design, or "MCR" in class design )

Here is an example AMM design using x5 Max engine power mod and a MSP 0.7 engine and quite long range:

« Last Edit: August 08, 2014, 03:27:02 AM by alex_brunius »
 

Offline MarcAFK

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Re: Learning to do Missiles
« Reply #11 on: August 08, 2014, 06:48:31 AM »
My multiplier research generally lags somewhat behind engine due to insane unsustainable fuel costs. Then again my fleets generally consist of huge quantities of mostly obsolete mothballed designs...
" Why is this godforsaken hellhole worth dying for? "
". . .  We know nothing about them, their language, their history or what they look like.  But we can assume this.  They stand for everything we don't stand for.  Also they told me you guys look like dorks. "
"Stop exploding, you cowards.  "
 

Offline Charlie Beeler

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Re: Learning to do Missiles
« Reply #12 on: August 08, 2014, 07:54:49 AM »
FictionXVI what tech are you actually working with?

You've posted that you're using Magneto-plasma Drive Technology.  What are you using for the rest?
 
Warhead Strength per MSP - ?
Missile Agility per MSP - ?
Fuel Consumption per EPH - ?
PowerMutliplier/Fuel Multiplier - ?
Amateurs study tactics, Professionals study logistics - paraphrase attributed to Gen Omar Bradley
 

Offline FictionXVI

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Re: Learning to do Missiles
« Reply #13 on: August 09, 2014, 10:47:11 AM »
Alright I have done more research mainly into max engine power modifier so I can have smaller more powerful engines and these are the other missile stats I'm working with now

Warhead Strength per MSP - 5
Missile Agility per MSP - 48
Fuel Consumption per EPH - 0. 8
PowerMutliplier/Fuel Multiplier - x3. 00/x15. 59

Using my newly upgraded engine power modifier I came up with this AMM

Code: [Select]
Missile Size: 1 MSP  (0.05 HS)     Warhead: 1    Armour: 0     Manoeuvre Rating: 20
Speed: 24000 km/s    Engine Endurance: 42 minutes   Range: 59.9m km
Cost Per Missile: 0.742
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 480%   3k km/s 160%   5k km/s 96%   10k km/s 48%
Materials Required:    0.25x Tritanium   0.492x Gallicite   Fuel x250

Development Cost for Project: 74RP

I really do think I am getting the hang of this now!  :)
 

Offline Barkhorn

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Re: Learning to do Missiles
« Reply #14 on: August 09, 2014, 05:08:26 PM »
59m km is huge range for an AMM.  The sensor needed to see a missile that far away must be huge, or way better tech than the rest of your stuff.  Consider trading most of your fuel for more agility, on-board sensors, or a bigger engine.
 

 

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