Author Topic: spoilers no real threat ?  (Read 1989 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline sneer

  • Lt. Commander
  • ********
  • s
  • Posts: 202
spoilers no real threat ?
« on: January 12, 2015, 11:54:30 AM »
in short
invaders dont group for major strikes vs player
during 60 years with invaders active I have seen only one bigger fleet of them jumping to mu system
rest were 2-6 ships patrols which were no real challenge
past 2100 they are no threat at all ( so maybe some multiplier to their spawn rate would be nice )

I did play very special scenario without any other npr to speed my game but with invaders on
I noticed them net door in 204x , in 206x something like 300kt in warships went past JP and it was real threat
rest , well , there was no real threat from them in any point
maybe there is some possibilty to make game a bit more challenging ?
I'm past 2100 and started to actively look for them and clear them in the area
 

Offline GreatTuna

  • Lt. Commander
  • ********
  • Posts: 202
  • Thanked: 1 times
Re: spoilers no real threat ?
« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2015, 12:40:30 PM »
so maybe some multiplier to their spawn rate would be nice

Moar wrecks for our scavengers!

The suggestion you proposed for solving the "invaders too easy" problem will fail to work, at least to work properly. There will be just more ships with same weak spots, and good enough commander can prepare for them no matter how large the invasion is. Or not, depending on tech and industrial potential: what can you do against single invader ship when you only have ion engines?
Either too hard, or too easy.

AMM launcher ships? Counter with a lot of armour.
ASM launcher ships? They are pathetic, a PD system which is 2-3 generations behind should be able to shoot missiles out, and then it's free minerals. And RP.
PD laser ships? Hmm, use the range to your advantage.
AS laser ships? Missiles, don't hesitate to launch them.

And that's all I can remember. That's it, four types of ships, each has its own counter.

The problem still remains. They are either too easy, in your case, or too hard, if you look from perspective of lower-tech empires.
I don't want them to be "too easy or too hard".
I want them to have proper fleets, with good enough doctrine.
I want them to have proper missiles, not the current "horrible, but long-ranged" stuff. Hm, I want them to have both long-ranged and short-ranged missiles.
I want them to use everything they can get with their tech level. Cloaks, shields (even standard will do, but absorption will do even better), fighters, HPMs, mines, mesons, FACs, MIRVs, ADVANCED weapons.

At last, I want proper ship selection on spawn. Had a laugh upon seeing 15 gate builders from one wormhole.
 

Offline sneer

  • Lt. Commander
  • ********
  • s
  • Posts: 202
Re: spoilers no real threat ?
« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2015, 03:30:41 PM »
I agree for a docrine , build composition or pushing max of tech levels
but algorythm for gathering armada would be really welcome
only 1st wave was really difficult , every next ship I spotted was easier
and yes , scavengers are happy
half of my capital ships in  2070-2100 period used 300ep solids salvaged from invaders wrecks  12000km/s capital ships make every fleet admiral happy
I miss ammo tenders for non player fleets
currently asm ships are sitting ducks after they empty magazines ( shooting freighters from distance for example )
 

Offline 83athom

  • Big Ship Commander
  • Vice Admiral
  • **********
  • Posts: 1254
  • Thanked: 84 times
Re: spoilers no real threat ?
« Reply #3 on: January 13, 2015, 09:02:03 AM »
Or what else would be a cool twist to the invaders, have them incorporate a massive-ship doctrine. Have their ships be around 5-10x the size they currently are. They would be throwing ships at you the size of most battleships that they consider to be their expendable frigates. This would make them harder to kill as well as ore deadly without changing much with their attitude/behavior.
Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set fire to him and he's warm for the rest of his life.
 

Offline rcj33

  • Petty Officer
  • **
  • r
  • Posts: 25
Re: spoilers no real threat ?
« Reply #4 on: January 13, 2015, 10:33:28 AM »
Or what else would be a cool twist to the invaders, have them incorporate a massive-ship doctrine. Have their ships be around 5-10x the size they currently are. They would be throwing ships at you the size of most battleships that they consider to be their expendable frigates. This would make them harder to kill as well as ore deadly without changing much with their attitude/behavior.

This would be amazing! I think Steve should implement a hard mode for spoilers (selectable at game start) that would create them with the max tech level they can have and spawn them in greater numbers and with bigger ships. I don't think I've ever seen a legit NPR/spoiler capital ship (discounting swarm).
 

Offline 83athom

  • Big Ship Commander
  • Vice Admiral
  • **********
  • Posts: 1254
  • Thanked: 84 times
Re: spoilers no real threat ?
« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2015, 11:00:59 AM »
Exactly! Weren't the invaders the ones to wipe out he precursors altogether. How could they have done that with ships made from spruce and canvas? (joke about how easily they die when you know their weakness by comparing them to the Wright brothers first aircraft)
Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set fire to him and he's warm for the rest of his life.
 

Offline sneer

  • Lt. Commander
  • ********
  • s
  • Posts: 202
Re: spoilers no real threat ?
« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2015, 03:53:48 PM »
well precursors example is not best as my stellar empire has technology level above precursors one :)

some system of triggers for invaders , linking it to player performance would be good
still waiting for an armada that will bring fear to my heart :)
 

Offline MarcAFK

  • Vice Admiral
  • **********
  • Posts: 1779
  • Thanked: 71 times
  • ...it's so simple an idiot could have devised it..
Re: spoilers no real threat ?
« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2015, 04:20:11 AM »
The invaders should be like the Antarans from master of orion 2, they always curbstomped my ass unless I didn't game them with massive missile salvos and jumping away before they counterattacked.
I think invaders should start with perhaps the 4th from top tech level, then go up as the player gets more advanced, they also should spawn significantly more ships if they get wiped out easily.
" Why is this godforsaken hellhole worth dying for? "
". . .  We know nothing about them, their language, their history or what they look like.  But we can assume this.  They stand for everything we don't stand for.  Also they told me you guys look like dorks. "
"Stop exploding, you cowards.  "
 

Offline sneer

  • Lt. Commander
  • ********
  • s
  • Posts: 202
Re: spoilers no real threat ?
« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2015, 07:28:41 AM »
I  doubt it is a number of invaders or their tech level not adequate to the task of wiping player out sooner or later
it is rather matter of how AI uses ships
so far I noticed it is very similar to precursor one
but precursor one should be less mobile , robotics guardians in endless loop over planets died long ago
Invaders spend too much time siting idle IMO
they should roam known system not patrol one of them for long
also when they spot npr / player colonies they should got an objective
build fleet and send there to kill
if task is not fullfilled next group of ships is stronger by a given factor till the moment mission is accomplished
this is how I want to see them working
also building beam / missile bases for invaders should be thrown out of algorythm as they should be 100% offensive

I decided to start a game without any npr in my game
any npr can be activated by me or by invaders ( they activated 1 early and I conquered them later)
it allows me to keep number or systems small
game keeps fast pace even past 2100
and it is me vs Invaders who fails so far in the task of keeping me busy

 

Offline GreatTuna

  • Lt. Commander
  • ********
  • Posts: 202
  • Thanked: 1 times
Re: spoilers no real threat ?
« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2015, 02:28:26 PM »
So, we're now talking about fleet doctrine. So be it.

Here is what I propose:
0. They should have a minimal amount of different ships on every spawn (e. g. at least 4 FACs, 1 beam frigate, 1 missile frigate, 1 graviscout on every spawn). This amount is increased if enough time passed, if they have detected enemy activity in this system before, and if they got some of the ships destroyed (not neccesarily in this system). They also should have a maximal fixed amount of ships on spawn (e. g. at most 200 FACs, 100 interceptors, 100 bombers, 50 destroyers, 30 beam\missile frigates, 30 area defence ships, 30 point defence support ships, 15 jump tenders, 5 tugs, 25 colliers, 20 carriers filled with fighters, 10 battleships, 3 command ships, 1 "300kton Annihilator class" etc...)
1. Before even a single thought about destruction of lesser races is made, the invader fleet should do some scouting: map points, discover systems, gather data... They do have a graviscout for this, but why can't they make it better? Add some armor, proper sensors, active and passive, shields or cloaking with thermal reduced engines, defensive offensive weaponry.
2. After gathering data, the invader fleet should decide on what to do (one can't win the war with only all-out attacks): harass the enemy, annihilate the enemy fleet or destroy enemy colonies, or maybe wait for reinforcements\call them? The decision can be random or based on something.
3. Depending on decicion, the fleet goes with hit-and-run tactics using armored, shielded and very quick interceptors\cruisers\destroyers, missile barrages from missile battleships, or missile\meson (goes right through the atmosphere!) frigates covered by other ships in the fleet.

Of course, I'm not talking about current ship designs, but rather for improved version.
I could post some "example" designs for better understanding, but I'm not sure whether I need to do it.
 

Offline JacenHan

  • Lt. Commander
  • ********
  • Posts: 279
  • Thanked: 33 times
Re: spoilers no real threat ?
« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2015, 06:20:21 PM »
Invaders might also be a little tougher if absorption shields and plasma torpedoes weren't broken.
 

Offline sneer

  • Lt. Commander
  • ********
  • s
  • Posts: 202
Re: spoilers no real threat ?
« Reply #11 on: January 15, 2015, 05:12:19 AM »
there are quite a lot of ideas that can be used
I think that there is one small solution that can be implemented alone first and we will see great improvement
Making Invaders changing system more often  , forcing them to travel and roam may be sufficient
too many of them guard systems far of any other race and in general picture remains inactive till player comes to them
for sure this is best in terms of mechanics , difficulty of implementation etc
 

Offline 83athom

  • Big Ship Commander
  • Vice Admiral
  • **********
  • Posts: 1254
  • Thanked: 84 times
Re: spoilers no real threat ?
« Reply #12 on: January 15, 2015, 08:50:17 AM »
Can we get like a link/copy on this topic on the Suggestion thread? Because a lot of these sound like good changes and could be discussed about a lot more.
Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set fire to him and he's warm for the rest of his life.
 

Offline sneer

  • Lt. Commander
  • ********
  • s
  • Posts: 202
Re: spoilers no real threat ?
« Reply #13 on: January 17, 2015, 04:14:52 AM »
I have found main invaders HQ I think :)
so far I have counted 20 of them and I'm not even close to center of the system
considering how I have built this game they started spawning there like 50-60 years ago
it is 2 transits from NPR home system , race I did conquered 40 years ago
and 4 transits from my homeworld 
Invaders patrols have been often spotted and destroyed in nearby systems but it looks like they are highly immobile
If they push with 20 units in 1 fleet I would certainly found myslef in trouble , possibly even huge trouble
possibly it would even cost me some part of my fleet
when Invaders are passive it is up to player to decide how and when to strike
not exactly how invaders shoud work
I treat them like cockroachers , they spawn in my home and I wipe them out , nothing more , no much fear ....
and the longer the game the lesser fear
I have ship projects already that I find on par with invaders ones what considering doctrine used makes me simply significantly stronger in fight

 

 

Sitemap 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53