Author Topic: Does his work? 91 simultaneous salvos, on 1000t  (Read 6729 times)

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Iranon

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Re: Does his work? 91 simultaneous salvos, on 1000t
« Reply #15 on: September 15, 2015, 06:34:01 PM »
5-6km/s speed on magneto era warships is not rare
so it has 30-40%hit chance ? and low speed is working as intended ?
slow ships - fast missiles are understandable but reverse ?

Options I like at my current tech (warhead 5, agility 64, fuel 0.6... ) are:
2 damage, 68.6m range, 64% against 5k
1 damage, 153.6m range, 86.4% against 5k

100% accuracy vs. 5k is possible, but I'd rather take the 2-damage warhead or get some combination of increased accuracy and range. Note that my missile tech may be lower than expected: my reference designs tend to use "everything up to 10k RP, and magneto-plasma drives"



well, with a slow missile you could afford a lot of agility.
True, but there are sharply diminishing returns... bigger warheads instead will result in higher expected damage. And low speed means we get a good amount of range if we forgo some expected damage, even on size 1 missiles.



How many do you expect to be deploying at any one time?

Not many. They shouldn't need to be massed to the same extent as many other missile-based systems, and they have some serious limitations.
 

Offline linkxsc

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Re: Does his work? 91 simultaneous salvos, on 1000t
« Reply #16 on: September 15, 2015, 09:13:52 PM »
any PD weapon can cover this missile threat
16km/s missile without salvo density in magneto era means no hits unless there is real swarm of such FACs ( with a such swarm better to do bigger design for economy reason )
also boxes means salvo density and guarantee something can leak through defence

Even in the best case, most PD ships will have 1 FC/pd turret, or 1 FC/AMM launcher. When the missiles get close, you'd need 90 FCs to attempt intercepting all of them withing the 30 or so seconds that they'll be approaching.
Remember, this is 91 separate salvos of 1 missile. As opposed to 1 salvo of 91 missiles. 1 FC with a gauss cannon can only shoot down 1 salvo of 1 missile per 5 sec increment. The same FC and GC can take down several of the missiles in a 91 missile salvo in that same increment. I don't knwo of too many ship designs that roll around with more than 10 FCs, and even those are rather specialized, or unnecessarily large.

boxes are like 15k rp from standard launchers, if not more.

so that's like this with magneto plasma, versus ion tech with boxes

Boxes might take a bit of initial research cost to unlock the boxes themsevles, but once are researched, are done themselves, as opposed to regular launchers that need reload upgrades that can get over 100krp. Guess this is actually a rather odd way of trying ot accomplish the same role of ship with cheaper launchers RP wise.

Details! :)
Of course we could slap some armour on... or take some precautions to avoid being shot at.
Slow missiles have a lot of flexibility. If I don't blow 40% of missile weight on a 2-damage warhead, I can easily get 150-200m range with some space left over for more agility. Even if we lose 10% effective range to our peculiar attack run, that should be a safe distance for FACs. Of course, this would require a more powerful missiles fire control and probably cost us a magazine.

Only major problem I have with the design itself is the missile, which its tohit chance seems a little low for your tech level

Thanks for the encouragement. While your suggestion would shorten the attack run, multiple launchers would sacrifice some of the salvo dispersion that was a main reason for this approach.
I only chose 1000t FACs for a high ratio of magazines to launchers/FC, which in turn requires a long attack run and limits a secondary role as AMM escorts... if that trade-off is not desired, I'd simply use smaller ships (possibly fighters).

Multiple launchers can be made to have the same salvo dispersion via having equal numbers of launchers and FCs, Might end up sacrificing some magazine space to do this, but this is why they'd carry their reloads on a supporting collier.

Which leads me to what I'm personally going to try myself, a variant of this based around a fighter. (will post below, for your consideration) alogn with a fighter sized collier to make the attack run with. Nice thing about it. It's pretty safe during its attack run because not much will pick it up and start firing on it.


You might be able to get around the slow missile speed by using two-stage missiles: the first is a slowish stage that allows the FAC to keep pace, and the second is a zippy little missile that separates from the first stage after the FAC's magazine has been emptied, but before the salvos get engaged by the enemy AMMs. The combined stage will probably be larger than your current missiles, but they may get more warheads onto the target in the end.
Probably worth considering. Size 2 missile with a trawling size 1 stage, and a size 1 missile, set them all to separate around 30mkm (outside of most all AMM systems at this low tech
Aside from minor deviation due to target movement while on the attack run, all the missiles should separate at the same range, and about the same time (give or take an increment) and start blasting their way towards the target at say 40kkm/s. Also could have longer overall range with this tactic.



Concept fighter variation for MY testing, pls note, this is an ion tech craft, not magneto plasma. And its engines are limited to a 2x modifier due to my current tech level.
Also I haven't designed the particular missile yet as I will have a couple of weapons to arm the craft with. Both a 14400 speed missile, and another 17820 speed missile (because reasons)
numbers might be a little off from the one I'd actually use in practice because this is beign thrown together on my laptop in a "testing" save, which has a higher level armor tech than a regular ion equipped player would, so range and fittings of "non mission tonnage" may vary.
But the concept its there. For the same tonnage and a slight bit more BP, you can get 32 missiles out from similar range, but but much more safely due to the difficulty in targeting fighters at long ranges. This without eating up a FAC Naval yard that might be putting out another design (since most players generally don't do too much with fighters)
Code: [Select]
ZJSF-0A Mirage class Fighter-bomber    500 tons     10 Crew     165 BP      TCS 10  TH 72  EM 0
14400 km/s     Armour 1-5     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 0     PPV 1
Maint Life 4.29 Years     MSP 21    AFR 20%    IFR 0.3%    1YR 2    5YR 28    Max Repair 45 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 0.3 months    Spare Berths 4   
Magazine 16   

24 EP Ion Drive (6)    Power 24    Fuel Use 392.02%    Signature 12    Exp 20%
Fuel Capacity 5,000 Litres    Range 0.5 billion km   (8 hours at full power)

Size 1 Missile Launcher (1)    Missile Size 1    Rate of Fire 10
Missile Fire Control FC78-R80 (1)     Range 78.9m km    Resolution 80

This design is classed as a Fighter for production, combat and maintenance purposes

As far as massing them, the design I'm planning on doing below, I might make either 3+1collier, or 6+2 colliers, shove them in a CV and give em a test run.... they work, good, they've earned their place in the carrier, they don't oh well, not too much money or RP invested (at the small magazine size, theres no benefit of producing a single size 3 magazine for the collier, just use 3 size 1s, and any size 1 magazine costs 50 RP to research with 1HTK)
But for a 4 ship squadron of concept fighters, that will be 96 missiles in space for 2000t of cheap disposable fighter, that doesn't rely on me retooling any navy yards. Stripping out the collier and just building a regular squad all fighters will put out about 64 in a run before having to RTB

Mind you a standard size 1 armed box fighter at the same tech, can only pack ~13 size 1 boxes into the same space as the magazine and launcher... but requires a hangar reload... so you be the judge.

Perhaps it might be an interesting way in a multifaction campaign to create doctrines for 2 different empires that are using fighters.
 

Offline sneer

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Re: Does his work? 91 simultaneous salvos, on 1000t
« Reply #17 on: September 16, 2015, 01:12:09 AM »
Even in the best case, most PD ships will have 1 FC/pd turret, or 1 FC/AMM launcher. When the missiles get close, you'd need 90 FCs to attempt intercepting all of them withing the 30 or so seconds that they'll be approaching.
Remember, this is 91 separate salvos of 1 missile. As opposed to 1 salvo of 91 missiles. 1 FC with a gauss cannon can only shoot down 1 salvo of 1 missile per 5 sec increment. The same FC and GC can take down several of the missiles in a 91 missile salvo in that same increment. I don't knwo of too many ship designs that roll around with more than 10 FCs, and even those are rather specialized, or unnecessarily large.
 


so is it 91 FACs with 91 magazine size  ?
what do you mean simultanous as they are not simultanous within 1 ship fire ability
 

Offline DIT_grue

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Re: Does his work? 91 simultaneous salvos, on 1000t
« Reply #18 on: September 16, 2015, 02:07:24 AM »
(I trust that sitting on my initial reaction for a couple of hours has simmered it down from '1-man instant flame war' to 'stinging sarcasm'.)

so is it 91 FACs with 91 magazine size  ?
what do you mean simultanous as they are not simultanous within 1 ship fire ability

 ::) So you don't bother reading the thread, even when you're forced to admit you've missed the entire point. Quoting the OP:

But there is something better than large salvos: An even larger number of missiles (on the same tonnage) in single salvos, arriving in the same increment.

I hope to achieve this by matching missile and platform speed - very slow missiles fired by a fast ship. This one may take 15 minutes to empty its magazines during an attack run (over a distance of 13.5m km, cutting significantly into its effective range)... but they should all arrive on target at the same time, in single missile salvos, rendering most defences comically ineffective.

To repeat it one more time, in the futile hope it will stick: the missiles are not launched in the same tick. They do (hopefully) end up running in together in a single clump. (Because every missile, as it is fired, runs alongside the ship at the same speed.)
 

Offline Nightstar

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Re: Does his work? 91 simultaneous salvos, on 1000t
« Reply #19 on: September 16, 2015, 03:40:06 AM »
Yeah, it should work pretty well. I came up with the same tactic some time back: http://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php?topic=5806.msg59633#msg59633
You even have pretty good designs. The problem, I've found, is mostly one of cost. The engines on your design cost 160 BP. A carrier also costs about that for 1 kton of package. Compare that to ~80 BP of other systems on your design, and ~80 BP of missiles.

Halve the engine size and power modifier, allocate a HS each to engineering and crew quarters, ditch the launcher and magazine, replace the remaining space with 0.33 size launchers (only 6k RP, compare to 5k RP for hangar decks)...and you get 30 launchers for a boat that's 1/3 the cost. Plus you can use faster missiles. 0.25 or box launcher tech and you get even better results. It won't overwhelm fire controls, but when you're firing like 900 missiles a salvo that's not generally important.

It's a very cool trick, but it doesn't break missile combat. Practical application is mostly limited to MIRVs, which still have the slow first stage problems, and homeworld defense, where you don't need a carrier. Or if you desperately need to break a much bigger fleet's missile defense.

Fair warning: I'm mostly a theorycrafter, and I'm not sure I ever actually tested this design. But it should work.
 

Offline sneer

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Re: Does his work? 91 simultaneous salvos, on 1000t
« Reply #20 on: September 16, 2015, 11:02:50 AM »
ok now I understand the concept
it seems like I missed the point previously
PD will take few of the missiles only
hit ratio will be moderate
but there will be initial stack of 91 so 40-50 hits out of 1 FAC is within theory range
it looks good at this point and vs some slower enemies like some NPRs that tend to go slow number will go significantly higher
it seems for a magneto era vs 20kt military ship with armor 4-6  about 6-8 such FACs will be needed to score kill
good idea as system defence

« Last Edit: September 16, 2015, 11:09:15 AM by sneer »
 

Offline amimai

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Re: Does his work? 91 simultaneous salvos, on 1000t
« Reply #21 on: September 16, 2015, 11:44:19 AM »
an idea!

make a slow size 2 MIRV missile (4000-8000km/s)
load it with a pathetic 0,4missile engine and 0,1fuel
set its trigger range to the max detection range you predict for the FAC

then load the MIRV's with blinding fast 1.5 size missiles

FAC (or even your main boat) unloads a wave of these missiles at more reasonable speeds (so you can fit twice as much ammo) at just outside their trigger range
once this wall of missiles gets in range, all the MIRV trigger at the same time, and BOOM you have a wall of 9001 separate salvos traveling at max speed fired from a single boat

admittedly this is nothing new to me, as ive always assumed that's how you used bombers because of a PvP space FPS/RTS game i once played that used this exact strategy to glass entire planets.
although that was taking it to the extremes since the bomber actually dive bombed the planet while doing this to shield the missiles from ams fire
« Last Edit: September 16, 2015, 12:27:51 PM by amimai »
 

Offline GodEmperor

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Re: Does his work? 91 simultaneous salvos, on 1000t
« Reply #22 on: September 16, 2015, 02:21:31 PM »
How in the name of god Magneto Plasma missile can be only 16k km/s ?? This is literally nuclear pulse level ...
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You have just pushed me."
 

Offline Prince of Space

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Re: Does his work? 91 simultaneous salvos, on 1000t
« Reply #23 on: September 16, 2015, 02:46:01 PM »
How in the name of god Magneto Plasma missile can be only 16k km/s ?? This is literally nuclear pulse level ...

They are in the name of god that slow because they were designed to be that slow. As clearly stated in the first post.

The question that remains is whether or not the volley segmentation confounds defensive fire controls enough to justify both the to-hit penalty and the increased vulnerability that comes with the slower speed.
 

Offline CharonJr

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Re: Does his work? 91 simultaneous salvos, on 1000t
« Reply #24 on: September 16, 2015, 06:35:25 PM »
I like the idea, and the MIRV even more, here is a example for a slow MIRV-bomber:

Ju-87 class Fast Attack Craft    1 000 tons     6 Crew     198 BP      TCS 20  TH 128  EM 0
6400 km/s     Armour 1-8     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 0     PPV 6
Maint Life 0 Years     MSP 0    AFR 200%    IFR 2.8%    1YR 65    5YR 976    Max Repair 52 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 0.1 months    Spare Berths 4   
Magazine 102   

64 EP Magneto-plasma Drive 2.0 (2)    Power 64    Fuel Use 443.5%    Signature 64    Exp 20%
Fuel Capacity 20 000 Litres    Range 0.8 billion km   (35 hours at full power)

Size 6 Missile Launcher (1)    Missile Size 6    Rate of Fire 60
Missile Fire Control FC77-R20 (1)     Range 77.5m km    Resolution 20
Size 6 Missile Stage (16)  Speed: 6 400 km/s   End: 200.8m    Range: 81.6m km   WH: 0    Size: 6    TH: 21/12/6
Size 1 2nd Stage ASM (6)  Speed: 25 600 km/s   End: 3.3m    Range: 5m km   WH: 2    Size: 1    TH: 111/66/33

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes

Missile tech is fairly low since I have no missile specialists in my current game, but still. 68 missiles with 33%-to-hit 10k speed enemies does not look that bad at this tech level. And a range of 75mkm should be enough to avoid detection except vs. high tech races and a separation range of 4.5mkm should be enough to avoid detection of the size 6 bus.
 

Offline MarcAFK

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Re: Does his work? 91 simultaneous salvos, on 1000t
« Reply #25 on: September 17, 2015, 12:14:08 AM »
That's basically what I'm thinking of using for saturation attacks.
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Offline sneer

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Re: Does his work? 91 simultaneous salvos, on 1000t
« Reply #26 on: September 17, 2015, 01:31:05 AM »
missile fc should be a bit higher as any ecm on target will prevent from using max missile range
 

Iranon

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Re: Does his work? 91 simultaneous salvos, on 1000t
« Reply #27 on: September 18, 2015, 04:47:09 PM »
an idea!

make a slow size 2 MIRV missile (4000-8000km/s)
load it with a pathetic 0,4missile engine and 0,1fuel
set its trigger range to the max detection range you predict for the FAC

then load the MIRV's with blinding fast 1.5 size missiles

Would be nice if it was possible, but no missile stage may be below 1MSP. Since more than ~1/4 for the first stage is excessive, a size 3 or 4 missile launcher seems right for a FAC. I think I still prefer a single-stage approach for a FAC: The overhead for engines isn't without its benefits, and anything that's problematic for a 4xstandard speed missile (against most targets, the large warhead more than compensates for the to-hit rate) poses even bigger problems for a 2-stage cruise missile.

I like a two-stage approach for larger ships though.
 

Iranon

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Re: Does his work? 91 simultaneous salvos, on 1000t
« Reply #28 on: September 21, 2015, 06:40:51 AM »
SUCCESS!
After sorting out my (touchscreen-related) technical difficulties, the original design is now officially battle-tested.

2 FACs accompanied by a spotting variant engaged a fleet totalling about 120kt (1x27kt, 3x18kt,4x10kt) known to have 1-damage beam and AMM defence, moving at about 2.8k.
Offensively, they were known to use small-ish particle beams at considerable range, and slow but high-yield missiles (size 4, 12k, 11 damage, unknown range but sensor coverage extending out to 112m at R78).

The map display showed a small spread, but two volleys of 90 and 91 missiles remained close enough together to intercept their targets in the same tick (one missile was given a head start to alert the enemy, after all the main goal is trolling point defence operators). 4 losses to point defence, 10k target destroyed, 27k target crippled (mostly thanks to secondary explosions).
The system performed exactly as designed and exceeded expectations, even considering the weak targets.
Unfortunately, I didn't have 200+ box launchers at hand to test enemy PD vs. conventional missile spam, but I believe there would have been some interceptions.

Frigates with a more reasonable speed and 2-stage missiles will be considered when tech permits: current engine multiplier tech is sufficient for slow high-yield missiles, not so much for short-ranged sprinters like dedicated AMMs or final ASM stages. Faster missile reload speed is also welcome for larger launchers.

Something similar to the current system will be kept for a fast response option, and to have an alterntive to slow cruise missiles when their limitations become a problem.
However, it may be scaled down to 400-600t in future generations for a smaller sensor footprint.
Alternatively, scaling up the armament also looks reasonable once a satisfactory (single stage) size-3 missile can be made with WH9 and a minimal sensor.
 

Offline JOKER

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Re: Does his work? 91 simultaneous salvos, on 1000t
« Reply #29 on: September 21, 2015, 04:18:29 PM »
Apparently it won't work. Slower missiles means enemy have much more AMM salvos to intercept them and have much higher chance to hit.