Change Log for v7.10 Discussion

[illrede]

As I already stated on the bay 12 forum, the rec facility is mostly redundant because if the habitat, your best bet is to half the size of the platform and make 2. Or just bigger tugs and patience.

I thought I had a specific use for it, long-deployment task forces in systems that are combat zones and reposition strategically as a matter of course.

Then somebody just shot the darned thing.

[JOKER]

As I already stated on the bay 12 forum, the rec facility is mostly redundant because if the habitat, your best bet is to half the size of the platform and make 2. Or just bigger tugs and patience.

Without rec facility, morale continue dropping. Do I have to fill the colony module with people?

[MarcAFK]

Without rec facility, morale continue dropping. Do I have to fill the colony module with people?

I'm an idiot, you do need the rec facilities, since you can't make a colony at a gas giant.

[sloanjh]

The problem is connected to the way the program is written. All populations are based on system bodies and everything that deals with populations expects that body to exist. It may be possible to have some way of towing a small asteroid to where you need it.

Someone posted a good idea about this in another thread a week or so ago: have a button (presumably in SM) that adds a system body at a location (similar to adding a waypoint).  So the workflow would be to add a system body (small asteroid) at the desired location then construct an orbital habitat from that.  This seems like a change that wouldn't be too hard to code up....

John

[Steve Walmsley]

Someone posted a good idea about this in another thread a week or so ago: have a button (presumably in SM) that adds a system body at a location (similar to adding a waypoint).  So the workflow would be to add a system body (small asteroid) at the desired location then construct an orbital habitat from that.  This seems like a change that wouldn't be too hard to code up....

John

I have considered that in the past. However, I'm not sure that I want lone asteroids appearing in the middle of planetless systems. Could cause an issue with suspension of disbelief. I have a way in mind to have the deep space stations working (at least for supplying and maintaining ships).

[MarcAFK]

I've wanted sonething similar for a while just to custom tailor systems, say to suit settings based on sci if titles. However possibly that's already possible with designer mode? I've never seen it myself but it makes more sense to be sonething you can't change during a game.

[Sematary]

The problem is connected to the way the program is written. All populations are based on system bodies and everything that deals with populations expects that body to exist. It may be possible to have some way of towing a small asteroid to where you need it.

However, I suspect what is really needed is some way to maintain ships in deep space, rather than a full blown population. If we had a ship that could maintain other ships in the same location, that would probably be all that was needed. Beyond that, repair ships are already possible (just a ship with a large hangar) as are recreational modules to allow shore leave, while fuel and munitions can already be based in deep space.

Maintenance modules already exist. All I need to do is make them work in deep space. Would that suffice for what you need?

Yeah. Especially with the new no armor option for ships. A recreation module, and a maintenance module that can work in deep space would be great. It would be expensive as all hell but that's part of the charm, having it be something you only make when it would really be worth it and facing a later possibility of moving it rather than building a second one.

[markus_cz]

About the automines, habitats etc. . .

I think this isn't issue of costs, it's an issue of availability - by which I mean that automines and mass drivers are so damn convenient that having them available at all instantly makes other mining technologies obsolete and pointless.  It doesn't really matter whether automines are 20 %, 100 % or even 300 % more expensive than habitats - they are simply so good that I am willing to accept the cost.  They will always be the better choice.

It all comes down to what Zincat says:

Not so a colony, which has to be defended, manned, garrisoned and most importantly cannot be easily relocated for whatever reason.

Imagine you had to (1) use only manned mines and (2) transport everything back home in freighters.  This requires huuuuuge logistic chains with shipyards, freighters, tugs, fuel refineries, military for defence etc.  etc.  These are complex systems prone to cause troubles.  But the moment you can build automines and mass drivers, this enables you to skip logistics almost completely.  No longer you have a complex system that needs to be maintained, it has been magically handwawed away.  Mining becomes "fire and forget".  So convenient.

Imagine the game instead worked like this:
- In the early game you can only build manned mined and you don't have mass drivers so you need to transport everything manually.
- Later, "asteroid mining modules" become available which eliminates some trouble with setting up colonies and allows at least some automation.
- Even later, you can research automines, which have asteroid mining modules as prerequisites and are very expensive in RP.  That's because they make the previous options effectively obsolete.
In a separate research chain:
- At some point mid-game you can research early mass drivers.  There are extremely expensive to build (or perhaps have certain requirements for the system body?) so they are ineffective to build at every moon and asteroid.  Instead, you build one for example in the whole Jovian subsystem and then use freighters to  shuttle minerals from nearby moons to the mass driver.
- Only in late game, mass drivers become cheap enough (or the requirements become loose enough) so that you can build them everywhere.

The overall effect:
- Early game civilizations have to rely on massive logistic chains based on freighters and manned outposts.  Slowly as the technology progresses (and your empire grows), this becomes more hands-off and automated.  Only in late game (with a large empire) you will have fully automated chains with mass drivers and automines.


Obviously, this is all very much IMHO.  But I am convinced that automines especially, and mass drivers to a lesser extent, are simply so good that players will rarely have reason to use anything else.  These two technologies together are making many other game mechanics useless, and in extension, making the game less interesting.  Which is exacerbated by the fact that they are freely available from the beginning.

[Haji]

I think this isn't issue of costs, it's an issue of availability - by which I mean that automines and mass drivers are so damn convenient that having them available at all instantly makes other mining technologies obsolete and pointless.  It doesn't really matter whether automines are 20 %, 100 % or even 300 % more expensive than habitats - they are simply so good that I am willing to accept the cost.  They will always be the better choice.

That's not an issue of mechanics, that's an issue of playstyle. And any good game allows various people to play properly using different playstyles. If you find orbital habitats so tedious/clumsy that you'd rather use more expensive option that's fine. If I'm going to be using orbital habitats everywhere no matter the logic that's also fine. By the end of the day the cost reduction made orbital habitats useful and even if many people, even if it's majority, won't use them that's fine. As long as there are people who find the new habitats useful, the cost reduction accomplished it's goal. What you're proposing further down your post merely takes away options from people forcing them to play a particular style, which is what bad games are doing.
Or to put it all differently. You don't like micromanagement to the point where you'd rather use more costly technologies because they're more convenient? Than you shouldn't be playing Aurora, which seems to have a motto: streamlining is for the weak!

[linkxsc]

About the automines, habitats etc. . .

I think this isn't issue of costs, it's an issue of availability - by which I mean that automines and mass drivers are so damn convenient that having them available at all instantly makes other mining technologies obsolete and pointless.  It doesn't really matter whether automines are 20 %, 100 % or even 300 % more expensive than habitats - they are simply so good that I am willing to accept the cost.  They will always be the better choice.

It all comes down to what Zincat says:
Imagine you had to (1) use only manned mines and (2) transport everything back home in freighters.  This requires huuuuuge logistic chains with shipyards, freighters, tugs, fuel refineries, military for defence etc.  etc.  These are complex systems prone to cause troubles.  But the moment you can build automines and mass drivers, this enables you to skip logistics almost completely.  No longer you have a complex system that needs to be maintained, it has been magically handwawed away.  Mining becomes "fire and forget".  So convenient.

Imagine the game instead worked like this:
- In the early game you can only build manned mined and you don't have mass drivers so you need to transport everything manually.
- Later, "asteroid mining modules" become available which eliminates some trouble with setting up colonies and allows at least some automation.
- Even later, you can research automines, which have asteroid mining modules as prerequisites and are very expensive in RP.  That's because they make the previous options effectively obsolete.
In a separate research chain:
- At some point mid-game you can research early mass drivers.  There are extremely expensive to build (or perhaps have certain requirements for the system body?) so they are ineffective to build at every moon and asteroid.  Instead, you build one for example in the whole Jovian subsystem and then use freighters to  shuttle minerals from nearby moons to the mass driver.
- Only in late game, mass drivers become cheap enough (or the requirements become loose enough) so that you can build them everywhere.

The overall effect:
- Early game civilizations have to rely on massive logistic chains based on freighters and manned outposts.  Slowly as the technology progresses (and your empire grows), this becomes more hands-off and automated.  Only in late game (with a large empire) you will have fully automated chains with mass drivers and automines.


Obviously, this is all very much IMHO.  But I am convinced that automines especially, and mass drivers to a lesser extent, are simply so good that players will rarely have reason to use anything else.  These two technologies together are making many other game mechanics useless, and in extension, making the game less interesting.  Which is exacerbated by the fact that they are freely available from the beginning.

I think you're blowing it a little out of proportion.
Firstly, any shipping of minerals out of a system requires freighters... and I've never found it to be explicitly difficult to manage them (actually usually they just run on a command loop and pick up every few months)
Also its not a HUUUUUUUUGUGGGGEEEE logistical demand to do well.... anything in the game.
The idea that manned/ship mining is worthless is a joke.
If I'm going to build a forward base on an uninhabitable world, or even a world with a high-ish colony cost, its going to need an orbital habitat for recreation of ships, and manning DSTS, maintenance facilities, and if necessary, terraformers, and manned mining facilities.

Now, if its NOT something thats going to be a base (IE a planet that has less worth being a base than somethign else in the system) it gets automined, or if its an asteroid it gets space mined.

To point out though, the mineral strain of producing automines over regular mines is quite substantial. Terrestrial worlds that make great bases and colonies often have lots of minerals, and its 0 work on my part to put manned mines there as opposed to automatic ones.
Also ship based ones are half the cost of auto ones, and don't require a freighter to move them about. (Just need enough cargo space on the mining ship to carry a mass driver, or have it followed up by a real freighter to pick up the minerals)

[AL]

I always thought DSTS's didn't require any population to run? At least I don't remember seeing any workers assigned to DSTS's in the worker breakdown list.

Also, what about being able to tractor beam asteroids (and other small bodies?). Then you could try pulling some through a jump point into an empty system and set up some asteroid forts or whatnot.

[linkxsc]

I always thought DSTS's didn't require any population to run? At least I don't remember seeing any workers assigned to DSTS's in the worker breakdown list.

Also, what about being able to tractor beam asteroids (and other small bodies?). Then you could try pulling some through a jump point into an empty system and set up some asteroid forts or whatnot.

Sorry,d erped that moment, no they don't require population.

But the point stills tands, that if a planet is going to be populated, might as well use manned facilities over automines.

Also theres no pulling of asteroids with tractor beams.

[AL]

Well, that was intended more as a suggestion; previously someone (Steve I think?) mentioned having random asteroids in an otherwise empty system would cause issues with suspension of disbelief, and this could be a possible solution/explanation for it.

[markus_cz]

I think you're blowing it a little out of proportion.

I am aware of that, and I've also crossed into suggestion territory.  But I still think I have a point (to an extant) from game design perspective.  Let me rephrase:

In an empire management game, it is interesting to have large logistic chains.  We all love building them, and managing them, they provide challenges and open up possibilities of trouble that you need to solve.  So the design of the game rules should encourage building these chains.  They're fun! But in Aurora, the readily available automines and mass drivers actually do the opposite – discourage you from complex logistics, and encourage you to choose the more boring solution.  Especially when they are available by default while the other options aren't.

And yes, you can still have roleplaying motivations but those shouldn't really be taken as an design excuse.

(By no way I'm saying here that Aurora is poorly design.  I adore this game.  This is just an idea. )

[Sematary]

Steve, I've had a thought about the deep space station we talked about on this thread. Are shipyards also tied to colonies like populations are? If not is there any reason a shipyard can't orbit a deep space station?