Range finding Question (Or how do i increase the range on my Beam firing control

[Iranon]

it costs 64,000 rp to go from TL4 Magneto-plasma to TL5 Inertial Confinement drives; it costs 60,000 rp to research every single faster engine multiplier tech put together from 1.25x to 3x.

in terms of RP efficiency, multiplier tech is basically always better for the sole purpose of improving missiles.

Extreme case (ignoring the cheap levels - even bad lines can give decent for the investment initially) and unrealistic assumption (we only care about missiles). How useful multiplier tech is depends on our range requirements, going from 1.25x to 3x also increases your specific fuel consumption by a factor of 9.

4x power is usually sufficient for decent long-range missiles. Even if 5x would be ideal and definitely helps short-range missiles, it starts to represent a significant tech investment with little application elsewhere.

[Catman115 (OP)]

Alright so from what i have managed to gather from the thread chatter and such, do not neglect your supply train. Ok gotcha then. Now here is another PDC design. I scrapped the whole split the main defensive bases idea because it seemed like a waste of time

Stronghold class Planetary Defence Centre    150 000 tons     2300 Crew     41205.25 BP      TCS 3000  TH 0  EM 0
Armour 54-251     Sensors 1/1050     Damage Control Rating 150     PPV 370
Intended Deployment Time: 3 months    Flight Crew Berths 15   
Hangar Deck Capacity 5000 tons     Troop Capacity: 10 Battalions    Magazine 11170   

Single State Engineering Commune 30cm C4 Soft X-ray Laser Turret (10x1)    Range 96 000km     TS: 10000 km/s     Power 24-4     RM 6    ROF 30        24 24 24 24 24 24 20 18 16 0
State Engineering Commune Gauss Cannon R5-100 (20x5)    Range 50 000km     TS: 6250 km/s     Accuracy Modifier 100%     RM 5    ROF 5        1 1 1 1 1 0 0 0 0 0
State Engineering Commune CIWS-160 (5x2)    Range 1000 km     TS: 16000 km/s     ROF 5       Base 50% To Hit
State Engineering Commune PDC Beam Fire Control (5)    Max Range: 96 000 km   TS: 6250 km/s     90 79 69 58 48 38 27 17 6 0
State Engineering Commune PDC Heavy Power Plant (1)     Total Power Output 180    Armour 0    Exp 5%

State Engineering Commune PDC Size 6 Missile Launcher (20)    Missile Size 6    Rate of Fire 15
State Engineering Commune PDC Size 1 Missile Launcher (10)    Missile Size 1    Rate of Fire 5
State Engineering Commune PDC PD Missile Fire Control (3)     Range 567.0m km    Resolution 1
State Engineering Commune PDC Missile Fire Control (3)     Range 3 586.0m km    Resolution 40
Size 6 Anti-ship Missile (1528)  Speed: 4 000 km/s   End: 9.3d    Range: 3208.9m km   WH: 16    Size: 6    TH: 24/14/7
Size 1 Anti-missile Missile (2000)  Speed: 4 200 km/s   End: 6.1m    Range: 1.5m km   WH: 1    Size: 1    TH: 110/66/33

State Engineering Commune PDC Active Sensor Suite (1)     GPS 42000     Range 1 195.3m km    Resolution 40
State Engineering Commune PDC Missile Sensor Suite (1)     GPS 1050     Range 189.0m km    MCR 20.6m km    Resolution 1

Strike Group
15x Raptor Fighter   Speed: 3312 km/s    Size: 6.34

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s


This design is classed as a Planetary Defence Centre and can be pre-fabricated in 60 sections

And the Raptor class fighter to go with them.

Raptor class Fighter    317 tons     4 Crew     185.9 BP      TCS 6.34  TH 0.21  EM 0
3312 km/s     Armour 1-4     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 0     PPV 4
Maint Life 6.29 Years     MSP 37    AFR 8%    IFR 0.1%    1YR 2    5YR 24    Max Repair 68 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 0.1 months    Spare Berths 0   

State Engineering Commune Fighter Drive (1)    Power 21    Fuel Use 280.76%    Signature 0.21    Exp 17%
Fuel Capacity 5 000 Litres    Range 1.0 billion km   (3 days at full power)

State Engineering Commune Fighter Laser (2)    Range 64 000km     TS: 6250 km/s     Power 3-1     RM 6    ROF 15        3 3 3 3 3 3 0 0 0 0
State Engineering Commune Fighter Beam Control (1)    Max Range: 64 000 km   TS: 25000 km/s     84 69 53 37 22 6 0 0 0 0
State Engineering Commune Fighter Power Plant (3)     Total Power Output 1.8    Armour 0    Exp 5%

This design is classed as a Fighter for production, combat and maintenance purposes


I know i must seem annoying to the board but what have i done wrong with this style of designs?

[TheDeadlyShoe]

PDC: Too much armor. You're paying out the nose for something that might end up worthless if the enemy has mesons, and long before the armor is breached you'll be rendered ineffective by shock damage.

Secondly, are you planning on using this on planets with atmosphere? A lot of these beam weapons are gonna be ineffective.

Also, you have 15 flight crew berths for your 60 fighter crew.

Raptor: Not sure what the purpose is here. Detachable beam mount for the PDC? Anyway:

use a 0.5x tracking multiplier on the fighters  beam control

cut from 2 lasers to 1 (and reduce powerplant apropos)

cut the engineering space

use the space for moar+better engines

[iceball3]

Alright so from what i have managed to gather from the thread chatter and such, do not neglect your supply train. Ok gotcha then. Now here is another PDC design. I scrapped the whole split the main defensive bases idea because it seemed like a waste of time

Stronghold class Planetary Defence Centre    150 000 tons     2300 Crew     41205.25 BP      TCS 3000  TH 0  EM 0
Armour 54-251     Sensors 1/1050     Damage Control Rating 150     PPV 370
Intended Deployment Time: 3 months    Flight Crew Berths 15   
Hangar Deck Capacity 5000 tons     Troop Capacity: 10 Battalions    Magazine 11170   

Single State Engineering Commune 30cm C4 Soft X-ray Laser Turret (10x1)    Range 96 000km     TS: 10000 km/s     Power 24-4     RM 6    ROF 30        24 24 24 24 24 24 20 18 16 0
State Engineering Commune Gauss Cannon R5-100 (20x5)    Range 50 000km     TS: 6250 km/s     Accuracy Modifier 100%     RM 5    ROF 5        1 1 1 1 1 0 0 0 0 0
State Engineering Commune CIWS-160 (5x2)    Range 1000 km     TS: 16000 km/s     ROF 5       Base 50% To Hit
State Engineering Commune PDC Beam Fire Control (5)    Max Range: 96 000 km   TS: 6250 km/s     90 79 69 58 48 38 27 17 6 0
State Engineering Commune PDC Heavy Power Plant (1)     Total Power Output 180    Armour 0    Exp 5%

State Engineering Commune PDC Size 6 Missile Launcher (20)    Missile Size 6    Rate of Fire 15
State Engineering Commune PDC Size 1 Missile Launcher (10)    Missile Size 1    Rate of Fire 5
State Engineering Commune PDC PD Missile Fire Control (3)     Range 567.0m km    Resolution 1
State Engineering Commune PDC Missile Fire Control (3)     Range 3 586.0m km    Resolution 40
Size 6 Anti-ship Missile (1528)  Speed: 4 000 km/s   End: 9.3d    Range: 3208.9m km   WH: 16    Size: 6    TH: 24/14/7
Size 1 Anti-missile Missile (2000)  Speed: 4 200 km/s   End: 6.1m    Range: 1.5m km   WH: 1    Size: 1    TH: 110/66/33

State Engineering Commune PDC Active Sensor Suite (1)     GPS 42000     Range 1 195.3m km    Resolution 40
State Engineering Commune PDC Missile Sensor Suite (1)     GPS 1050     Range 189.0m km    MCR 20.6m km    Resolution 1

Strike Group
15x Raptor Fighter   Speed: 3312 km/s    Size: 6.34

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s


This design is classed as a Planetary Defence Centre and can be pre-fabricated in 60 sections

And the Raptor class fighter to go with them.

Raptor class Fighter    317 tons     4 Crew     185.9 BP      TCS 6.34  TH 0.21  EM 0
3312 km/s     Armour 1-4     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 0     PPV 4
Maint Life 6.29 Years     MSP 37    AFR 8%    IFR 0.1%    1YR 2    5YR 24    Max Repair 68 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 0.1 months    Spare Berths 0   

State Engineering Commune Fighter Drive (1)    Power 21    Fuel Use 280.76%    Signature 0.21    Exp 17%
Fuel Capacity 5 000 Litres    Range 1.0 billion km   (3 days at full power)

State Engineering Commune Fighter Laser (2)    Range 64 000km     TS: 6250 km/s     Power 3-1     RM 6    ROF 15        3 3 3 3 3 3 0 0 0 0
State Engineering Commune Fighter Beam Control (1)    Max Range: 64 000 km   TS: 25000 km/s     84 69 53 37 22 6 0 0 0 0
State Engineering Commune Fighter Power Plant (3)     Total Power Output 1.8    Armour 0    Exp 5%

This design is classed as a Fighter for production, combat and maintenance purposes


I know i must seem annoying to the board but what have i done wrong with this style of designs?

A couple of things:
A large quantity of your weapons are non-functional in atmospheric conditions. Specifically, all of the beam weapons that aren't Mesons or CIWS. Atmosphere hits beam weapons of types besides those two with a percent reduction to damage dealt, up to 100% damage reduction in earth-like pressures or higher. With that in consideration, there is very little, if any incentive to not turret weapons on a PDC, as size limitation isn't quite as important as cost to effectiveness on the smaller scale.

The PDC is EXTREMELY expensive. Expect it to take the better part of a century to build even if you devote most of your construction to it, though it depends on how much you've developed your empire by then. Still leaves a big problem of mineral shortages, or the fact that the planet in question is going to be undefended while waiting for it to be built. Probably more viable to just build it in smaller segments to allow modularity, and to make building the darn thing worth considering.

There aren't enough spare crew berths for your hangar space. Probably a good idea to add extra crew quarters until you got 100 berths, give or take.

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Size 6 Anti-ship Missile (1528)  Speed: 4 000 km/s   End: 9.3d    Range: 3208.9m km   WH: 16    Size: 6    TH: 24/14/7
Size 1 Anti-missile Missile (2000)  Speed: 4 200 km/s   End: 6.1m    Range: 1.5m km   WH: 1    Size: 1    TH: 110/66/33Your missiles are extremely slow. Don't expect it to hit anything that matches your tech level, ever. In fact, they probably will consistently fail to hit earlygame vessels as well.

Your fighters are extremely slow. You know that extremely high tracking speed you put on them? Unusable, specifically, the game uses the lesser of the turret tracking speed (which is the highest of either the vessel speed or your racial gear tech speed), and the sensor speed. Considering your fighters are going a comfy 3000 km/s and have a racial turret speed of 6000 km/s or so, they can only accurately hit stuff going the same speed or slower than the latter.

Your turret and beam tracking speeds on the main PDC don't match, which isn't a huge concern, but it does mean wasted stats, as the game only uses the lesser of the two, as previously mentioned.

[Catman115 (OP)]

Tons of constructive criticism.

Thanks although i have one question about it. Where do i see the required flight crew space? I cant find it. Also i was kind of intending for the Raptors to be a Fighter i could stick on a carrier design i have kicking around as well as the PDC.

Tons of constructive criticism

Thanks a whole bunch. I didnt know that Atmosphere made beam weapons smeg, so yeah... back to the drawing board, ie Mesons, again.

[Pixel1191]

For the fighters: You have almost 200 tons of "wiggle room" before it hits the limit. I'd consider cramming in another engine or two, or develop a bigger, more powerful version if you want to stick with single engine. A fighters only defense is high speed and I'm sorry to say, this one will probably be outrun by enemy destroyers early-on (depening on what sorta enemies you meet first)

For the flight crew: You see how many crew your fighter needs in it's design (4, in this case), so for a strike group of 15 fighters, you need AT LEAST 60 spare crew room on your carrier/hangar. To do that, you check the "Keep excess Q" in the upper right corner of the ship design screen (for your hangar) and add crew quarters until you have the desired amount of flight crew berths.

Could you post your missile designs and also the missile engine designs? I'd like to see the configuration, because they really are slow. We could try and find the flaw and help correct it.

As for the armament itself, scrap everything but Mesons, none of it will work on anything but bodies without atmosphere and then what's the point of defending those rocks? Develop a nice, small focal (10-12cm) Meson turret and slap those on there for point defense needs, everything else will be taken care of by missiles and/or ships.

[AL]

I have a feeling the problem with the missiles is low engine multipliers. You really want to be using the highest multiplier available to you, and if you really want to get the most bang for your buck I suggest going all the way to that max 6x engine power multiplier.
That's also a very impressive 3bkm range on the size 6 missile, but your PDC doesn't have the active sensor reach to make best use of it. It's probably a good idea to redistribute some/most of that weight currently being used for fuel to get a larger engine for your missile, which along with higher multipliers should hopefully get you a decent speed.

[Catman115 (OP)]

Ok so after encountering what i can only assume to be the star swarm and getting annihilated by it, i had to restart. Im frakking sick of apparently having non functioning buckets of bolts for ships so imma just go over this literally one step at a time. Can anyone tell me if this is a good pair of engine designs for Ion tech level?

Fighter Drive:
Engine Power: 36     Fuel Use Per Hour: 277.79 Litres
Fuel Consumption per Engine Power Hour: 7.716 Litres
Engine Size: 50 Tons    Engine HTK: 1
Thermal Signature: 36     Exp Chance: 30
Cost: 18    Crew: 3
Materials Required: 18x Gallicite
Military Engine
Stats used in the designer:
Ion Drive Tech
Engine power: x3.00/Fuel consumption per EPH 15.59
Fuel Consumption: 0.5 liters per EPH
Thermal Signature: Signature 100% normal
Engine Size: 1HS/Fuel Consumption -1%

Frigate/Destroyer Drive:
Engine Power: 360     Fuel Use Per Hour: 2525.33 Litres
Fuel Consumption per Engine Power Hour: 7.015 Litres
Engine Size: 500 Tons    Engine HTK: 5
Thermal Signature: 360     Exp Chance: 30
Cost: 180    Crew: 30
Materials Required: 180x Gallicite
Military Engine
Stats used in the designer:
Ion Drive Tech
Engine power: x3.00/Fuel consumption per EPH 15.59
Fuel Consumption: 0.5 liters per EPH
Thermal Signature: Signature 100% normal
Engine Size: 10HS/Fuel Consumption -10%

[doulos05]

Personally, I don't use high engine power multiples on my warships, only my fighters. But having said that, I've seen several good designs here that do. Even so, I would drop your frigate engine back to 1.5 if you really want a high multiple. If you plan to have a lot of these things flying around, expect to suck gas giants dry with your fuel demands.

As to your loss, you have to think like dwarf fortress. Losing is Fun. You will lose every game you play, even the ones you win. Because eventually the game will grind your computer to a halt with 5 day turns that take a week. You don't beat this game, you live it.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

For ships 7000-9000 tons or below, it can be worth it to custom research an engine depending on the needs of the ship. A large single engine is often a maintenance hog, but the fuel savings are great.

It's hard to judge whether a component is 'good' or not by itself because what really matters is the design as a whole.

I agree that that frigate engine is a huge fuel hog.  Generally, max-multiplier engines are only for parasite warships -  their fuel consumption is just too high to even cross a single system. 

Between 0.8x and 1.2x is a good safe region for warship drives.

[Iranon]

One of the biggest common design blunders is excessive engine multipliers which needs to be compensated for by excessive fuel.
If you're using more than 40% (32% for freely scaleable engine size) of your engine tonnage for fuel, you would actually gain performance by reducing engine multiplier.
Because you're probably willing to give up a tiny bit of performance for considerable fuel savings, more than 15-20% of engine mass in fuel is questionable on a ship.
Even in missiles I often don't hit the theoretical ideal fuel-to-engine ratio - the performance increase may simply not be worth the RP.

Which brings me to the next point: Researching 3x engine multiplier before Magento-Plasma drive as in Catman's example is another blunder.
Stellarator Reactor + Magneto Plasma Drive costs you 32000RP and increases your speed by 1/3 for no drawback.
Engine Power x3 costs you 30000RP and increases your speed by 1/5 while increasing specific fuel consumption by 58%.

[Catman115 (OP)]

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Alright so then, frigate drive is a gas hog and i over-researched my engine modifiers, ok then. I dropped the Frigate engine back to x1.2 (i need it to be fast) to solve the problem. Now then onto the next little bit of thing. Im trying to design a simple jump capable frigate to traverse the systems surrounding Sol and act as armed scout and the like. I want the ships to operate in pairs or maybe groups of three. So imma post this design for a pair of lasers and an accompanying Beam Fire Control. Plz tell me what i did wrong.

Twin State Engineering Commune 30cm C8 Soft X-ray Laser Turret (1x2)    Range 96 000km     TS: 10000 km/s     Power 48-16     RM 6    ROF 15        24 24 24 24 24 24 20 18 16 0
State Engineering Commune 30cm C8 Soft X-ray Laser (1)    Range 96 000km     TS: 10000 km/s     Power 24-8     RM 6    ROF 15        24 24 24 24 24 24 20 18 16 0
State Engineering Commune Basic Beam Fire Control (1)    Max Range: 96 000 km   TS: 10000 km/s     90 79 69 58 48 38 27 17 6 0

[TheDeadlyShoe]

your laser has only a fraction of its potential range, Increase the Range multiplier for the FC to 4x. Generally, a heavy antiship beam weapon should usually be using an FC with a 4x range multiplier.

also generally, dont bother with turrets unless you need to increase the weapons tracking speed.

[Catman115 (OP)]

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Many thanks for the advice but

also generally, dont bother with turrets unless you need to increase the weapons tracking speed.

Why is this a thing? Do turrets do worse vs ships or something?

[TheDeadlyShoe]

Turrets pay a mass premium, but weapons tracking speed can be increased past its normal limits by using turrets.   So when you make a turret that is the same speed as your basic tracking technology (10,000 kms), you're paying extra tonnage for no benefit at all.