Author Topic: C# Aurora Changes Discussion  (Read 197371 times)

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Offline Erik Luken

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Re: C# Aurora Changes Discussion
« Reply #2220 on: June 15, 2019, 02:16:59 PM »
So Rakhas = Space Orks. :)
 

Offline Hazard

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Re: C# Aurora Changes Discussion
« Reply #2221 on: June 15, 2019, 02:27:02 PM »
And frankly?

A bombardment of a few thousand warhead strength equivalent clears up swiftly enough to only need minor efforts for survival infrastructure. The habitability issues aren't that punishing, nor is the risk of loss of facilities because there are none on planet, just ground forces.
 

Offline Bremen

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Re: C# Aurora Changes Discussion
« Reply #2222 on: June 15, 2019, 02:59:15 PM »
My gut feeling is they're going to be pretty easy to bombard down. Either with missiles from outside STO range or with beam weapons if their STO fire isn't too heavy. Collateral damage isn't a big threat when there's nothing on the planet, and radiation and dust will have time to settle out.

This isn't necessarily bad, though, as they still present an interesting new challenge (and I expect they'll give us an early taste of ground combat in one of Steve's stories, which I've been hoping to see :D). Perhaps if bombarding them is too easy it might be worth adding some sort of bonus for dealing with them on the ground, like ruins or some sort of bonus tech that gets damaged by orbital bombardment.

I assume that for them to still have ground units around (especially with no matching civilian population) they probably have an auto-factory or something pumping out high tech laser guns; might be interesting if conquering on the ground left you with a special ground force training center that slowly produced high tech infantry units. I'd say a stockpile of ground weapons instead but if I understand the system right it doesn't actually support ground troop equipment separate from actual ground units.

So Rakhas = Space Orks. :)

I remember the Dahak series had a planet that had regressed to primitive technology after the space empire collapsed, but built a religion around worshiping the self-repairing technology (including a planetary defense system) that was still around. I'm kind of picturing it as something like that, except with aliens instead of humans.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2019, 03:54:20 PM by Bremen »
 

Offline Steve Walmsley

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Re: C# Aurora Changes Discussion
« Reply #2223 on: June 15, 2019, 06:03:42 PM »
 

Offline Steve Walmsley

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Re: C# Aurora Changes Discussion
« Reply #2224 on: June 15, 2019, 06:31:16 PM »
And frankly?

A bombardment of a few thousand warhead strength equivalent clears up swiftly enough to only need minor efforts for survival infrastructure. The habitability issues aren't that punishing, nor is the risk of loss of facilities because there are none on planet, just ground forces.

Planetary bombardment in C# isn't the same as in VB6.

http://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php?topic=8495.msg111435#msg111435

Lets assume you have missiles with 9 point warheads and you are firing on Martian infantry from my current game, which have 15 armour and 10 hit points. Lets assume the infantry are fortified but without construction vehicles to help (so 3 fortification, not 6). Lets pick the only near-habitable planet found so far in my campaign, which has Jungle Rift Valleys as the dominant terrain and therefore a hit modifier of 0.1875. Lets assume a force of 10,000 infantry, which would cost about 1500 BP.

Using the new orbital bombardment rules, each warhead will attack 150 infantry but only kill 6.875 of them. So it will take 1455 warheads to kill them all, which is 13,000 warhead strength. That will create 13,000 radiation and 13,000 dust. The radiation will take 130 years to clear and the dust will only need 52 years. Initial production hit will be -130%, plus the impact on population growth, temperature, etc.. Infrastructure doesn't help against radiation, so the planet is essentially useless for 100 years (and even then it will still be -30% to production). Smaller warheads don't necessarily help. You would need 3500 4-point warheads for example.

Also, you need to replace the missiles, I am assuming no ground-based point defence and that isn't a particularly large ground force. People's Republic in my current game is 120,000 infantry, plus tanks.

If the enemy is on plains or steppe, it is easier, but they may also be better dug-in or more resistant to bombardment. You can no longer simply wipe out ground forces and move in, at least not without severe environmental damage.
 
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Offline JustAnotherDude

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Re: C# Aurora Changes Discussion
« Reply #2225 on: June 15, 2019, 07:05:41 PM »
Damn, I knew it would be harder to just outright destroy ground forces but that really underlines it. I'm excited for these guys, they'll give me a reason to start developing my lift capability way quicker.
 

Offline Bremen

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Re: C# Aurora Changes Discussion
« Reply #2226 on: June 15, 2019, 08:53:06 PM »
Also, you need to replace the missiles

I've just realized that I'll now have something to do with my stockpiles of old obsolete missiles. Though the radiation in particular is a good reason not to go too bombardment crazy, they'll still be decent for softening them up.
 

Offline QuakeIV

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Re: C# Aurora Changes Discussion
« Reply #2227 on: June 15, 2019, 09:11:07 PM »
Ah, just tow a bunch of habitats in to keep the mines running and its all good.

e: Unless they cant maintain the mines regardless, which seems somewhat unfair.  Surely they could just jaunt down briefly in heavy radiation gear to fix things then go back up.
 

Offline Hazard

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Re: C# Aurora Changes Discussion
« Reply #2228 on: June 16, 2019, 01:44:51 AM »
And frankly?

A bombardment of a few thousand warhead strength equivalent clears up swiftly enough to only need minor efforts for survival infrastructure. The habitability issues aren't that punishing, nor is the risk of loss of facilities because there are none on planet, just ground forces.

Planetary bombardment in C# isn't the same as in VB6.

http://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php?topic=8495.msg111435#msg111435

Lets assume you have missiles with 9 point warheads and you are firing on Martian infantry from my current game, which have 15 armour and 10 hit points. Lets assume the infantry are fortified but without construction vehicles to help (so 3 fortification, not 6). Lets pick the only near-habitable planet found so far in my campaign, which has Jungle Rift Valleys as the dominant terrain and therefore a hit modifier of 0.1875. Lets assume a force of 10,000 infantry, which would cost about 1500 BP.

Using the new orbital bombardment rules, each warhead will attack 150 infantry but only kill 6.875 of them. So it will take 1455 warheads to kill them all, which is 13,000 warhead strength. That will create 13,000 radiation and 13,000 dust. The radiation will take 130 years to clear and the dust will only need 52 years. Initial production hit will be -130%, plus the impact on population growth, temperature, etc.. Infrastructure doesn't help against radiation, so the planet is essentially useless for 100 years (and even then it will still be -30% to production). Smaller warheads don't necessarily help. You would need 3500 4-point warheads for example.

Also, you need to replace the missiles, I am assuming no ground-based point defence and that isn't a particularly large ground force. People's Republic in my current game is 120,000 infantry, plus tanks.

If the enemy is on plains or steppe, it is easier, but they may also be better dug-in or more resistant to bombardment. You can no longer simply wipe out ground forces and move in, at least not without severe environmental damage.

Except you forgot one thing. The moment temperatures drop below 25C the dominant terrain for the planet will be rerolled, and all other terrains now potentially on the table are less punishing for orbital bombardment, ranging from a Fortification 2.5 and To hit 0.25 modifiers (Forested Mountain) as a worst case reroll for the attacker, to the Fortification 1 and To Hit 1 modifiers of Steppe, Praerie and Tundra. That is the real reason you do a general bombardment; to get rid of stackable modifiers or at least mitigate them, and get your own troops in a more favourable environment. I mean, who cares it's now a -20C or worse radioactive hellhole when your troops are no longer stuck in the jungle with extreme temperature training but no jungle combat training and your enemy now has the exact opposite problem and can't stack his defensive bonuses as high.

The radiation damage is problematic, but, well, habitats and automated mines should cover that problem. And if they don't it's time to break out the high power spinal beam cannons so you only have to deal with the dust.
 

Offline Steve Walmsley

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Re: C# Aurora Changes Discussion
« Reply #2229 on: June 16, 2019, 05:20:38 AM »
The radiation damage is problematic, but, well, habitats and automated mines should cover that problem. And if they don't it's time to break out the high power spinal beam cannons so you only have to deal with the dust.

Radiation affects production, regardless of whether you use automated mines or the population is in orbital habitats. That is true in VB6 as well. The only mining method that is unaffected is orbital miners, but they have a planetary size limitation in C#. So you can massively irradiate the planet to kill the ground troops, as long as you don't plan to use the surface of the planet afterwards.

You can use energy weapons, but they only shoot at one soldier at once, rather than the 150 per 9-point warhead, and your base chance to hit before fortification and terrain is 7% compared to 100% for a nuke. They are much more useful in supporting ground troops than trying to pick off individual soldiers from orbit. You could theoretically do it given enough time and maintenance supplies (weapons malfunction in C#), but I doubt it will be economically viable. Again, this assumes the ground forces aren't shooting back.

C# mechanics are designed to make ground combat a real option, even the preferred option in many cases. You can still choose to wipe out ground forces and populations from a distance but that option is much more costly than before in economic and environmental terms. With some ground forces vs naval forces, it might not even be a viable option.

As for deliberately creating a nuclear winter to kill all the trees, that is a creative solution but you still have the environmental problems as a result. BTW Forested Mountain survives all the way down to -50C. It would be easier and cheaper to send in your own ground forces, which is all the new rules are trying to achieve.

Finally, you reminded me that I forgot to include terrain fortification modifiers in my original example. The infantry should have been at 6.75 fortify (3x inherent * 2.25 for terrain), so only 3 infantry would have been killed per warhead, not 7. 3270 9-strength warheads would have been needed, not 1450. I agree that that at some point, the fornication and to-hit modifiers would change, but it is still actually worse than my original example.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2019, 06:59:02 AM by Steve Walmsley »
 

Online clement

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Re: C# Aurora Changes Discussion
« Reply #2230 on: June 16, 2019, 07:51:26 AM »
I agree that that at some point, the fornication and to-hit modifiers would change, but it is still actually worse than my original example.

I must have missed a post in the change list, cause the game just took a new turn.

Maybe a new ship or troop module?
 

Offline Jovus

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Re: C# Aurora Changes Discussion
« Reply #2231 on: June 16, 2019, 08:08:36 AM »
Gotta keep those troop numbers (and morale) up somehow.
 

Offline Rich.h

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Re: C# Aurora Changes Discussion
« Reply #2232 on: June 16, 2019, 09:02:34 AM »
How about them having access to tech locked facilities, these will be exceptionally good at what they do but only avalible via capture, similar to things like plasma torpedoes & ultra compressed fuel tanks etc. Gives yet another reason not to go crazy with the warheads from space.
 

Offline Hazard

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Re: C# Aurora Changes Discussion
« Reply #2233 on: June 16, 2019, 01:46:33 PM »
*snip*

Ah, I see that I was unclear.

While what you say is all true, the idea with full on indiscriminate bombardment like that isn't to destroy the ground forces utterly through orbital bombardment. It's nice if that happens, mind, but if the only resource of value down there is the mineral wealth of the planet there's no collateral to worry about except the temperature plunge and that can be covered with enough infrastructure. Especially since as the dust settles temperatures rise back up. This is of course only true for beam based bombardment, missile bombardment will also see radiation complicating the matter.

Rather, the point of a bombardment like this is to forcefully terraform the planet so its defensive modifiers drop. The Fortification and To Hit modifiers stack, so that's a pretty big deal if you are dealing with a Jungle Rift Valley (a fully fortified infantry unit in a Jungle Rift Valley has a 1.4% chance of getting hit regardless of source), but even in the worst case scenario for the new terrain (fully fortified infantry in a Mountain terrain) that gets you a 4 (1/6)th % chance of getting a hit on the enemy target, about 3 times as likely. It also means that due to the new, extreme environmental conditions that you probably trained your forces for but they did not you're not going to be suffering under penalties they will.

All of this combines to make an assault much more likely to be successful with limited casualties as a result. And if the terrain reroll gets you Barren, Chapparal, Ice Fields or anything else with a lower than 1.5 fortification modifier and a 0.75 to hit modifier you stop bombarding and go for the landings, because at that point it's close enough to equal.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2019, 04:37:08 PM by Hazard »
 

Offline Jovus

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Re: C# Aurora Changes Discussion
« Reply #2234 on: June 16, 2019, 02:06:20 PM »
While what you say is all true, the idea with full on indiscriminate bombardment like that isn't to destroy the ground forces utterly through orbital bombardment. It's nice if that happens, mind, but if the only resource of value down there is the mineral wealth of the planet there's no collateral to worry about except the temperature plunge and that can be covered with enough infrastructure.

Maybe the price of infrastructure should be pushed up significantly, so that the cost of mines + infrastructure to hold necessary pop at colony cost <tweaking parameter> is comparable (tho' slightly less than, because of the hassle) to the cost of automines.
 

 

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