Author Topic: Jump tender with both types of jump engines  (Read 829 times)

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Offline Detros

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Jump tender with both types of jump engines
« on: October 29, 2017, 11:50:33 AM »
At Sol-Cardiff JP I have a Gatekeeper at Sol side:
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Gatekeeper class Mobile Jump Gate    45,000 tons     436 Crew     3024.4 BP      TCS 900  TH 1800  EM 0
4000 km/s    JR 3-50(C)     Armour 3-112     Shields 0-0     Sensors 11/11/0/0     Damage Control Rating 0     PPV 0
MSP 11    Max Repair 286 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 169 months    Spare Berths 0   

Ward International J15000(3-50) Military Jump Drive     Max Ship Size 15000 tons    Distance 50k km     Squadron Size 3
Charlton Foundation 400 EP Commercial Magneto-plasma Drive (9)    Power 400    Fuel Use 6.19%    Signature 200    Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 3,000,000 Litres    Range 193.9 billion km   (560 days at full power)

Stanley-Coles Systems CIWS-200 (6x6)    Range 1000 km     TS: 20000 km/s     ROF 5       Base 50% To Hit
Pugh-Green Thermal Sensor TH1-11 (1)     Sensitivity 11     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  11m km
Pugh-Green EM Detection Sensor EM1-11 (1)     Sensitivity 11     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  11m km

This design is classed as a Commercial Vessel for maintenance purposes

and a Limeleaf at Cardiff side:
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Limeleaf class Light Carrier    7,500 tons     120 Crew     1000.5 BP      TCS 150  TH 84  EM 0
1600 km/s     Armour 3-34     Shields 0-0     Sensors 14/14/0/0     Damage Control Rating 6     PPV 0
Maint Life 8.66 Years     MSP 1542    AFR 69%    IFR 1%    1YR 37    5YR 552    Max Repair 78.75 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 18 months    Flight Crew Berths 89   
Hangar Deck Capacity 3750 tons     Cryogenic Berths 200   

Stone Design Bureau 120 EP Magneto-plasma Drive (2)    Power 120    Fuel Use 17.54%    Signature 42    Exp 7%
Fuel Capacity 650,000 Litres    Range 88.9 billion km   (643 days at full power)

Harris-Fry Active Search Missile Sensor MR3-R1 AAS28-140 (1)     GPS 28     Range 3.9m km    MCR 427k km    Resolution 1
Leach Warning & Control Thermal Sensor TH1-14 (1)     Sensitivity 14     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  14m km
Leach Warning & Control EM Detection Sensor EM1-14 (1)     Sensitivity 14     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  14m km

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes

The Gatekeeper has both military jump drive at 15kt and commercial one at 45kt (one can see both of them in component summary but full summary shows just one = reported bug). Neither of those jump drives is self-only, one can jump 2 and the other one 3 ships in TG when using squadron jump. The Limeleaf is currently without any fighters. Both ships have completed "Move to [Sol/Cardiff] JP" command. There is JG at Sol side but no JG from Cardiff side.

The Gatekeeper is capable of Standard jumping itself back and forth but it is unable to tender Limelead through (not standardly from either side of JP, neither standardly nor squandronly when in the same TG). I am quite sure I was using such Gatekeepers with double jump drives in my last game, tendering for standard jumps of ships with both commercial and military engines while staying at the same side of JP. Is the JG somehow messing with this situation (=bug) or am I missing something (=feature)?
 

Offline 83athom

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Re: Jump tender with both types of jump engines
« Reply #1 on: October 29, 2017, 12:14:36 PM »
That hidden Jump Drive may be the cause of your issue as my similar builds work and show both drives. Try jumping the carrier by itself with the Gatekeeper just sitting on the point (each in different groups), they are supposed to be able to do that (they did in previous versions at least). Your issue may be the Gatekeeper not being able to jump because it is thinking its only capable of 15k tons limit for jumping (because what you described is that the Gatekeeper and the carrier are in the same group, which makes the game think the group is all military, which makes it only want to use the military drive).
Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set fire to him and he's warm for the rest of his life.
 

Offline Detros

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Re: Jump tender with both types of jump engines
« Reply #2 on: October 29, 2017, 12:20:56 PM »
Loading the last save file from that previous game I have found out I have remembered it wrong: I had there separate commercial and military tender ships and just often positioned both of them at the same JP so both types of ships can get through freely. Still, as I understand the rules, it seems to me this double jump engine concept should work.

@83athom: As I said, Gatekeeper itself can jump both ways. I am unable to find the configuration in which the Limeleaf can get back to Sol (it easily got to Cardiff because there is JG from Sol side). I though Gatekeeper sitting on any side and separate Limeleaf using Standard jump should work. Could maybe the order in which you add components be the differing factor? I will try similar situation at some JP without any JG so I can rule that part out.
 

Offline serger

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Re: Jump tender with both types of jump engines
« Reply #3 on: October 30, 2017, 12:58:56 PM »
Your military JD cannot work, AFAIK, because your ship is bigger, than her military JD max ship size.
 

Offline Detros

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Re: Jump tender with both types of jump engines
« Reply #4 on: October 30, 2017, 04:22:08 PM »
Your military JD cannot work, AFAIK, because your ship is bigger, than her military JD max ship size.
It just doesn't work? Even when trying to tender for small enough military ships?
 

Offline Detros

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Re: Jump tender with both types of jump engines
« Reply #5 on: October 30, 2017, 05:11:03 PM »
Your military JD cannot work, AFAIK, because your ship is bigger, than her military JD max ship size.
It just doesn't work? Even when trying to tender for small enough military ships?
I have just tried this. I have used SM, unlocked the Gatebuilder and replaced the 15k military jump drive with 45k one. Limeleaf was still unable to jump.
 

Offline davidb86

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Re: Jump tender with both types of jump engines
« Reply #6 on: October 31, 2017, 10:36:09 AM »
The gatekeeper with the military drives cannot open a jump for any size of ship since the military drive capacity (15,000) is less than the ship size (45,000). 

The gate keeper can jump itself using the commercial jump drive since it has commercial engines. 

AS previously noted  by multiple responders, the commercial drive cannot be used to jump the limeleaf since the limeleaf has military engines, and the military drive cannot be used to jump the limeleaf since the military drive capacity is less than the gatekeeper size, it does not matter that it is larger than the limeleaf's 7500 since it is non-functional being on a ship that is larger than the capacity.
 

Offline Erik Luken

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Re: Jump tender with both types of jump engines
« Reply #7 on: October 31, 2017, 01:48:02 PM »
I have just tried this. I have used SM, unlocked the Gatebuilder and replaced the 15k military jump drive with 45k one. Limeleaf was still unable to jump.

What was the final size of the Gatebuilder? 15k to 45k jump drive is a fairly big increase. If the new size of the Gatebuilder is over 45k, you are still stuck.
 

Offline Detros

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Re: Jump tender with both types of jump engines
« Reply #8 on: October 31, 2017, 04:13:49 PM »
What was the final size of the Gatebuilder? 15k to 45k jump drive is a fairly big increase. If the new size of the Gatebuilder is over 45k, you are still stuck.
Exactly 45k. The original version was at efficiency 6, now I am at 10 so I was moving from 50 HS only to 90 HS. I removed like one layer of armor and one CIWS so I could fit that SMed 45k military jump drive.
 

Offline 83athom

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Re: Jump tender with both types of jump engines
« Reply #9 on: October 31, 2017, 04:34:27 PM »
Exactly 45k. The original version was at efficiency 6, now I am at 10 so I was moving from 50 HS only to 90 HS. I removed like one layer of armor and one CIWS so I could fit that SMed 45k military jump drive.
And you still had that other Military Drive on the design? Because I know THAT causes some problems.
Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set fire to him and he's warm for the rest of his life.
 

Offline Detros

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Re: Jump tender with both types of jump engines
« Reply #10 on: October 31, 2017, 06:15:39 PM »
And you still had that other Military Drive on the design? Because I know THAT causes some problems.
"I was moving from 50 HS only to 90 HS" meant I have removed the 15k one and put in 45k one. I have SMed the new drive, put it into Gatekeepers, tried to jump and then reloaded the save. I didn't store the updated design.

Maybe if one of you posts one of those other designs with both types of jump engines that work for you (= ship can tender both military and commercial ships ) we can find out if I am doing something bad or if such setup works only in some specific cases and otherwise gets bugged.
 

Offline davidb86

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Re: Jump tender with both types of jump engines
« Reply #11 on: November 01, 2017, 10:59:27 AM »
Once you updated the design, did you open the ship in the ship viewer?  This forces the software to load the new design instead of the old design staying in the buffers.
 

Offline Detros

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Re: Jump tender with both types of jump engines
« Reply #12 on: November 12, 2017, 11:50:47 AM »
Once you updated the design, did you open the ship in the ship viewer?  This forces the software to load the new design instead of the old design staying in the buffers.
Thanks for the tip. I am not sure about the first time but I have now tried multiple times to use Gatekeeper to tender for Zahringen, 5.4 kt light troop transport with mil engines. I have changed the jump drive configuration in Gatekeeper, used deployment time and armor to get it exactly to 45 kt and loaded it in Individual ship view to check the new amount of armor.

Configuration of jump drives that worked:
1) 5.4k mil
2) 45k mil

Configuration of jump drives that did not work:
1) 5.4k mil, 45k comm
2) 45k mil, 45k comm

It seems I will have to just use two ships unless one of you can show me the trick.
 

Offline Paul M

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Re: Jump tender with both types of jump engines
« Reply #13 on: November 13, 2017, 03:03:11 AM »
Your results make no sense.  You have a 45kt jump tender, with a 5.4 kt mil jump engine, it can't jump a 5.4 kt ship as it can't jump itself.   So your first config 1 should never work as the engine's jump capacity is below the size of the ship mounting it.

Config 2 (45kt mil jump engine) should work, and it does unsurprisingly.

Config 1 (5.4 kt mil jump engine and 45 kt commercial) can't work for the same reasons that a 5.4 kt military jump engine doesn't work (jump engine smaller than ship mounting it)--that this doesn't work while the other did is very odd.

Config 2 (45 kt mil jump enine and 45 kt commercial) is pointless as a 45kt military jump engine can jump a comercial engined ship through anyway.  But regardless there is no obvious reason why this doesn't work.

Commercial jump engines can jump commercial drive ships only.  Military jump engines can jump either commercial engine or military engine ships through so long as the jumping ship's mass is below the jump drive limit (smaller of mounting ship size or drive rating).

This may just be a question of if Steve programed the check to look for 2 jump drives and only he can reply to that.   I would suggest using a jump tender with a single jump drive as that most assuredly works, even if you need two tender classes.
 

Offline Detros

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Re: Jump tender with both types of jump engines
« Reply #14 on: November 13, 2017, 02:35:03 PM »
Your results make no sense.  You have a 45kt jump tender, with a 5.4 kt mil jump engine, it can't jump a 5.4 kt ship as it can't jump itself.   So your first config 1 should never work as the engine's jump capacity is below the size of the ship mounting it.
Why should not there be a jump tender that is unable to jump itself but allows jumping for smaller ships? You just park it on your side of JP and smaller ships can go back and forth...

Thanks, I keep forgetting military jump drive should be able to jump both types of ships. I will just pay for one big one then.
 

 

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