Author Topic: Give me the secret of shipbuilding!  (Read 748 times)

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Offline vorpal+5

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Give me the secret of shipbuilding!
« on: November 30, 2017, 10:34:04 AM »
For some, it is so easy to 'cheat the system' that if they wanted, they could have 10 different ship classes built in the same SY. And yet... I'm barely able to have 2 ships classes very close from another to have a common SY. Even ships which are about the same costs and same size are more often than not incompatible, SY wise.

 

Offline Barkhorn

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Re: Give me the secret of shipbuilding!
« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2017, 11:33:12 AM »
Make a really expensive design, like a ship that's nothing but gigantic, high tech sensors and tool a shipyard for it.  That shipyard should then be able to build just about any other design I think.
 

Offline Paul M

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Re: Give me the secret of shipbuilding!
« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2017, 11:37:24 AM »
The easiest way to make sure that ship yards can build the maximum number of ship classes without retooling is to use standardized components.  All ships of a certain size use the same sensors, engines, have similar levels of defenses and the main difference is the mission package.   Then you can get 2-4 classes built without retooling.   But as the technology on the ships diverges then it becomes harder and harder.

The NCN can tool for the FFH Wounded Knee class and build also the  FFG(H) Gargoyle class.  But not the CT Lake, SV Edinburgh or TJ Flower classes even though they are similar.   In the same way the CO Quiver and DD Tribal classes are interbuildable but not the JS Enchanter.

The ships cost can't differ that much and that requires that the ships be basically only variants of a basic design with a high use of standardized components.  Also it could be you can build the early version of a series of classes but as time goes on their mission package starts costing different amounts so you loose the interbuildabilty after a few refits.

I'm not sure if this helps, but it is the best advice I can give you on the topic.

 

Offline vorpal+5

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Re: Give me the secret of shipbuilding!
« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2017, 02:35:41 PM »
I don't feel like 'cheating' by tooling to something with 30 huge sensors. On the other hand, aside that, it seems there is nothing sure recipe-wise, except standardizing a lot.
 

Offline Paul M

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Re: Give me the secret of shipbuilding!
« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2017, 09:39:57 AM »
That "cheat" won't work, the ships are interbuildable only if their costs are close (+-10% see message below).  So an expensive ship as a design in the shipyard will only allow designs with a cost close to it.   The Victoria-Esquimalt Graving yard is currently tooled for the Wounded Knee Frigate (BP 817) and I can also build Gargoyles (BP 811) but not the CT Lake (BP 752).

The only way to get some degree of interbuildability is to use standardized parts and standardized designs so far as I have ever seen.  You most certainly never will arrive at a situation where you can build 10 different designs in one shipyard in "reality" in my view, 2-4 additional designs yes but no more and not always as you can see in the examples I gave above.

(Edit: changed the value of the Gargoyle to its correct value, changed the 20% to 10% based on Garfunkel's comment)
« Last Edit: December 02, 2017, 12:52:11 AM by Paul M »
 

Offline Garfunkel

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Re: Give me the secret of shipbuilding!
« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2017, 10:13:33 AM »
It's 10% and you shouldn't worry about being able to build multiple classes on a single SY too much. You can either build more SY so that there is less need to retool or just plan ahead - think how many of a class you need/want, build those and move on, later building improved versions or different ones.
 

Offline obsidian_green

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Re: Give me the secret of shipbuilding!
« Reply #6 on: December 02, 2017, 01:11:17 AM »
I second Garfunkel's advice. You'll drive yourself a little crazy trying to get those shipyards to spit out multiple classes. I had my phase where that was an efficiency I thought I could achieve, but learned it was best not to bother. You do want to check occasionally, especially when you've designed a new class: you might be able to build it at an existing shipyard or building/retooling a shipyard for the new design might allow building of some older ones (so you might want to retool their shipyard instead on another or a new build).

I think a more intuitive improvement of "additional eligible classes" would be by size comparison rather than by cost comparison, but that's not currently what we have to work with.
 

Offline Iranon

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Re: Give me the secret of shipbuilding!
« Reply #7 on: December 02, 2017, 05:40:53 AM »
@ Paul M: It only checks for cost of components on the ship to be built that aren't on the ship the yard is tooled for, not the other way round. In non-cheaty use, this often means you can build analogous freighters in yards tooled for your colony ships, but not the reverse. Or you can build a fighting ship in a yard tooled for its command version (with a sophisticated sensor package but less weaponry), but not the other way round.

Making the ship consist almost entirely of the most expensive electronics (hardened beam fire controls, applicable sensors for commercial yards) enables you to build just about anything. I don't like going quite as far, but when I build some sensor pods (to be tugged around) I'll happily reuse the shipyard for anything of the appropriate size.
 

Offline vorpal+5

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Re: Give me the secret of shipbuilding!
« Reply #8 on: December 02, 2017, 10:35:47 AM »
Ok thanks, I now get the grasp of the rule, from Iranon and others:

It only checks for cost of components on the ship to be built that aren't on the ship the yard is tooled for, not the other way round. +- 10% margin
 

Offline Shiwanabe

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Re: Give me the secret of shipbuilding!
« Reply #9 on: December 02, 2017, 06:28:04 PM »
Which is still incorrect.

The actual rule is that the *Refit* cost has to be under 20% of the tooled ship's cost.


Refit cost being:
125% of the cost of any components needing to be added
0% of the cost of any components removed
10% of the difference in Tonnage


While I can understand the confusion around this, Google is a wonderful tool. (and Reddit users link useful things on occasion)

Reddit post: https://www.reddit.com/r/aurora/comments/3zoiql/ocs_quick_guide_to_compatible_class_designing_no/
The Guide they link: https://imgur.com/qfd8T2Q
 

Offline iceball3

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Re: Give me the secret of shipbuilding!
« Reply #10 on: December 03, 2017, 07:02:23 PM »
Which is still incorrect.

The actual rule is that the *Refit* cost has to be under 20% of the tooled ship's cost.


Refit cost being:
125% of the cost of any components needing to be added
0% of the cost of any components removed
10% of the difference in Tonnage


While I can understand the confusion around this, Google is a wonderful tool. (and Reddit users link useful things on occasion)

Reddit post: https://www.reddit.com/r/aurora/comments/3zoiql/ocs_quick_guide_to_compatible_class_designing_no/
The Guide they link: https://imgur.com/qfd8T2Q
Good explanation! I often use this to get two survey vessels out of the same shipyard: just by making a placeholder design which is roughly the same as the survey designs, but having both survey packages simultaneously. The slight increase of HS from survey simultaneity would be minor compared to the total cost as a result of having them both on at once, so it's manageable.
 

Offline Gabethebaldandbold

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Re: Give me the secret of shipbuilding!
« Reply #11 on: March 04, 2018, 09:42:22 PM »
but sometimes you will also retool for a 25000 ton beam battlecruiser and find out that you 4500 ton missile corvette is also buildable on the same shipyard... I dont even try to understand this thing anymore, I just build more shipyards and retool when I need to
To beam, or not to beam.   That is the question
 

 

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