Author Topic: Research changes planned?  (Read 2434 times)

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Offline vorpal+5

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Research changes planned?
« on: January 10, 2018, 11:57:01 PM »
I'm wondering if there are some plans to change how research actually works for Aurora C#. There are a few things that stand out for me that I dislike:

- That a scientist with even a single lab can gain experience as if he had 20 under his command. It leads to exploit, constant reshuffling or an iron mind to set up a sound house rule yourself.
- That a project is not shared across several planets
- That you can change around lab allocation with them being at full efficiency as soon they are relocated.
 

Offline ChildServices

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Re: Research changes planned?
« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2018, 01:52:40 AM »
- That a project is not shared across several planets

I find this in particular to be pretty key, since comms are basically meant to be faster than light.
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Offline MarcAFK

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Re: Research changes planned?
« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2018, 06:53:48 AM »
As a counterpoint, research should be shared amongst planets, but maybe there should either be some lag as you travel further form the homeworld (measured by jump chain) particularly if a project is picked up by a different world. Sure research data can be sent around instantaneously, but the research facilities, staff availability, training, education, even the culture of a world would have an impact on it's ability to pick up and continue research done elsewhere.
Perhaps research specialization should take time to get into gear. A Power and propulsion researcher with a 25% bonus working on a P&P project on a world that hasn't done P&P research before should only get the 25% bonus at start, over time this bonus increases until finally getting the full x4 effect.
At the start when you just have a homeworld and haven't researched anywhere this specialization should be fairly fast, maybe only taking a year or something to get the full bonus. But later if you move labs elsewhere and decide for instance to make mars your power and propulsion research world it will take longer to get full specialization bonus. The length of time needed should be the one year base time, then increased by distance from home world, and perhaps also increased as your total P&P tech level increases.
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Offline ChildServices

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Re: Research changes planned?
« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2018, 07:04:59 AM »
I actually really like that idea, although I think the homeworld's research bonus modifiers should start at full for whatever fields you've started the game with research in.

"Start the game with" would include techs you gave yourself with starting research points, if you chose to manually spend those points via the space master.
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Offline Jorgen_CAB

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Re: Research changes planned?
« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2018, 12:55:51 PM »
While I do think that research facilities should be able to work together in different places I don't feel this is a huge issue in the game since most research should not be a linear endeavor anyway. You can't just throw double the resources on a project and expect twice the result.

The more pressing matter with research is that new technologies are instantaneously available and integrated into society as soon as you discover it, this is not how it works. Technology need to be slowly integrated and for a price and should usually require some form of industrial production and resources to make a reality.

I think this process should be automatic but new technology should need investment in both discovery and implementation as you do with ship technology. You don't see your ships instantly getting better when you discover new technology.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2018, 02:12:18 PM by Jorgen_CAB »
 

Offline King-Salomon

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Re: Research changes planned?
« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2018, 01:09:40 PM »
While I do think that research facilities should be able to work together in different places I don't feel this is a huge issue in the game since most research should not be a linear endeavor anyway. You can't just through double the resources on a project and expect twice the result.

I also think this is a weakness in the system atm - it just invites to rush 1 project after an other instead of distributing the labs on more than 1 project - some kind of (small but counting) decreasing efficiency with every 5 or 10 labs you add to a project may be much more realistic AND give the player a reason to research more projects at the same time (even in the "same school of research") (other than the 1-lab-to-train-a-researcher)...

I don't like the "rush one single project at a time" system - but it IS the best to do now.. so a decreasing efficiency might chance that a tiny bit (but not too much)

---

what I also would like to see would be some kind of "penalty" for chancing labs from one "school of research" to an other again and again - something like a "10 day retool-time" would be nice and honestly, you just can't use a bio-lab for physic engineer research without SOME time to retool it...

but as always.. for me first priority would always be to get C# out and running before chancing more stuff
 

Offline Garfunkel

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Re: Research changes planned?
« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2018, 06:49:48 PM »
I find this in particular to be pretty key, since comms are basically meant to be faster than light.
They aren't. There just is no feasible way to implement light-speed lag into the game as it currently stands. In most of Steve's games, and many other games, you'll see players emulate light-speed lag to some extent.

I'm actually against the idea of multiple planets participating in the same research project. Coordination and collaboration is a major issue as a project grows larger. In fact, there should be diminishing returns after the number of research labs grows big enough to simulate the friction and waste that happens in big organizations.
 

Offline QuakeIV

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Re: Research changes planned?
« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2018, 07:24:17 PM »
My understanding was sensors are speed-of-light?  If so, that would imply speed of light comms.
 

Offline vorpal+5

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Re: Research changes planned?
« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2018, 02:59:12 AM »
About multiple planets on the same project. My main problem here is not about realism etc. it is about the RP that are not transferred at all. Say you conquer a planet with 5 labs, the tech you research there have their research points *locked* on this planet...

I don't mind if you can research a given project on a single planet at a time, but at least, the research points should be stored at the tech level, not at the planet level.

And sound remark about the most efficient (but boring, unrealistic) strategy of researching only a single project at a time (baring the exploit of attributing 1 lab per fairly decent researcher so they build up their skill).

Now, if the chance to build up your skill is lower if you don't have say at least your admin level as allocated lab, you counter partially the behavior above.
If you 'top that' with 'reduced efficiency' when you reallocate labs, then that would be perfect.

 

Offline Tree

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Re: Research changes planned?
« Reply #9 on: January 13, 2018, 03:30:11 AM »
Steve's already considering a global research modifier, if you want it to take you a hundred years to go from ion to magnetoplasma, you'll be able to, no need to make it all even slower.
 

Offline QuakeIV

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Re: Research changes planned?
« Reply #10 on: January 13, 2018, 04:16:36 AM »
Uh, I'm going to note I had meant to say I thought sensors were faster than light (star wars and the whole 'going to lightspeed' thing screwed me over).  FTL sensors imply FTL comms.
 

Offline sloanjh

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Re: Research changes planned?
« Reply #11 on: January 13, 2018, 09:18:00 AM »
Uh, I'm going to note I had meant to say I thought sensors were faster than light (star wars and the whole 'going to lightspeed' thing screwed me over).  FTL sensors imply FTL comms.
Locally (within a system) yes.  As Garfunkel said, trying to code up light-speed sensors would be a nightmare so IIRC there's some technobabble about TN giving access to superluminal information.  But across jump points, I believe Garfunkel's statement about emulating the lag (i.e. actually requiring a ship to transit a jump point before the message can be "passed along the chain") to be the case.  So I'd say you should think Honorverse - instantaneous within a system, but requiring couriers between systems.

John
 

Offline froggiest1982

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Re: Research changes planned?
« Reply #12 on: January 13, 2018, 08:31:29 PM »
Steve's already considering a global research modifier, if you want it to take you a hundred years to go from ion to magnetoplasma, you'll be able to, no need to make it all even slower.

What about making it global but give the option to the player to chose the pace of the game with a slow, normal or fast option? Games like Gal Civ or Civilization already do that. This will give you less hustle while researching but still impact on "earning" the tech edge on rivals with the consequent gratification.
 

Offline vorpal+5

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Re: Research changes planned?
« Reply #13 on: January 14, 2018, 05:02:03 AM »
Steve's already considering a global research modifier, if you want it to take you a hundred years to go from ion to magnetoplasma, you'll be able to, no need to make it all even slower.

I don't see how this is related to countering the induced exploits or micro-management of the current system?
 

Offline Jorgen_CAB

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Re: Research changes planned?
« Reply #14 on: January 15, 2018, 01:37:32 AM »
I don't like a global research system because first of all it is unrealistic and not fun.

To increase decision making I would instead propose that each area have dedicated labs and the more points you put into one project it will have diminishing return. You could allow labs over several planets to cooperate at some penalty.

You should then have just one page which have all your labs (with locations) so you easily could assign them, you should not do it per planet.

This could also be coupled with a system of research needing to get into society as well and not just instantly upgrade everything which just allow for the snowball effect to grow larger which is contradictory to how technology distribute through a real society.
 

 

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