Author Topic: Replacing Teams?  (Read 2345 times)

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Online TheDeadlyShoe

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Re: Replacing Teams?
« Reply #30 on: February 12, 2018, 04:11:23 PM »

If you want to do ground units though...*hmmm....*  Maybe they need an extended mechanic so they are cool?  You could have a matrix of challenges depending on the type of world being surveyed and attributes of the unit / unit leader could be checked/rolled against the challenges.  Failure could cause delays, materiel losses, or even the death of the formation leader.  So for example if you were surveying Mercury it might have the tags EXTREME HEAT, VACUUM.  Earth might have LARGE HYDROSPHERE, COMPLEX LIFE, MILD VOLCANISM, OXYGENATED.  A trojan asteroid might have MICROGRAVITY, VACUUM. These tags would each have a list of challenges associated with them, and a geo (or xeno?) team would roll against them along with some generic challenges like 'Structural collapse', 'Accident', 'Serial killer', etc. 

Ideally, there would be tradeoffs between attributes of vehicles used for the units. A too large unit may even be susceptible just from its size to more problems from seismic events et cetera.

 

Offline Hazard

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Re: Replacing Teams?
« Reply #31 on: February 12, 2018, 04:32:00 PM »
Geosurveying random pieces of rock some of which may generate so much in the way of TN materials it'd be a major component if not the only component (looking at you comets), it'd be entirely understandable if non-dwarf planet size bodies/celestial objects below a certain gravitation treshold just... don't benefit from a ground based geosurvey. They're so small the sensor system detects everything.
 

Offline Steve Walmsley

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Re: Replacing Teams?
« Reply #32 on: February 12, 2018, 05:05:40 PM »
Geosurveying random pieces of rock some of which may generate so much in the way of TN materials it'd be a major component if not the only component (looking at you comets), it'd be entirely understandable if non-dwarf planet size bodies/celestial objects below a certain gravitation treshold just... don't benefit from a ground based geosurvey. They're so small the sensor system detects everything.

It is a good idea. I've been thinking along the same lines. It makes sense that a ship could fully survey smaller bodies but larger ones would need a ground-based survey for the full impact. This could also be combined with another suggestion that certain worlds could be identified as having additional potential. Now this becomes something with a lot less micromanagement, as it might only be one or two worlds in a system.

 
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Offline the obelisk

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Re: Replacing Teams?
« Reply #33 on: February 12, 2018, 05:11:49 PM »
Quote from: TheDeadlyShoe link=topic=9830. msg106589#msg106589 date=1518473072
Scout units sound fine, though much like espionage teams, good luck ever using them outside a multi-earth start.
I imagine scouts as a ground unit that's primary use is during a ground based conflict, giving you more information about the enemy units, offering a way to use an FFS on a tactically defensive enemy without exposing your main combat units from their fortifications, and possibly providing some generalized/abstracted recon bonus.

Quote from: Garfunkel link=topic=9830. msg106590#msg106590 date=1518473228
SIGINT module for ships would be great.  It can be little frustrating how little player can find out about enemy ships even in combat.

I can see a use for espionage teams still - if you do decide to create an embassy facility that can be sent to alien planets, then require that in place before an espionage team can be created.  Their transport is handwaved as part of regular supply runs for the embassy and their hiding among aliens is easier to explain as cultural / trade envoys operating from the embassy.  Make it available only during peace is a sensible limitation.

This facilitates both gameplay and storytelling: we'll have additional space options while keeping the option for James Bond style espionage as well.  SIGINT can tell us that there are X facilities on a planet, HUMINT from the espionage team tells us that the facilities are building Y.
I really like this approach, and think that your suggestion of abstracting the transportation is better than my suggestion of making embassies require maintenance.   To avoid the teleportation issue, I imagine you could use some sort of transit time mechanic, so that the espionage team is only available after a certain amount of time based on the distance from their origin to their destination, and your best tier of engine tech.   Doing it that way, you might require that they be recalled before you get the benefits of their mission, since some people were talking about extraction/sending a message home.   Or, you could have the mission be assigned at the starting planet, and just set a mission duration (which gets added to transit time) after which they automatically return to give you the benefits of the mission.

 
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Online TheDeadlyShoe

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Re: Replacing Teams?
« Reply #34 on: February 12, 2018, 07:50:13 PM »
It is a good idea. I've been thinking along the same lines. It makes sense that a ship could fully survey smaller bodies but larger ones would need a ground-based survey for the full impact. This could also be combined with another suggestion that certain worlds could be identified as having additional potential. Now this becomes something with a lot less micromanagement, as it might only be one or two worlds in a system.

It could all be part of the Anomaly system
 
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Offline Praetori

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Re: Replacing Teams?
« Reply #35 on: February 13, 2018, 02:57:15 AM »
Quote from: alex_brunius link=topic=9830. msg106569#msg106569 date=1518437735
Well SIGINT (Signal Intelligence) we need to separate between communications and non communications.  COMINT entails listening in on the enemy communications to learn their secrets rather then simply scanning their ships or the analyzing emissions from ship systems (ELINT).  This means you also need to have translated their language and (if sensitive information) also cracked their encryption/codes.

Would be nice with ELINT sensors combining other techs and not as a single sensor but rather a sensor-suite.
For ease of management though it would probably need to be simplified down to getting stats of planets and ship properties depending on the type of sensors and time spent collecting.

Information both on enemy active sensors and ECM would enable you to adapt in both EMCON and weaponry for example.

Would also be immersive to have "civilian" modules for that espionage trading-vessel (could provide some inter-connectivity with diplomacy, depending on how advanced such a feature gets).

SIGINT on comms could provide ideas about enemy force-dispositions and also reveal commanders and even information on assets that are not readily visible in-system.
 

Offline Conscript Gary

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Re: Replacing Teams?
« Reply #36 on: February 14, 2018, 05:15:12 PM »
First things first, I'm very much a fan of diplomacy ships as a concept. As far as expanding it into a system that allows for embassies and such, could it maybe hook into the same mechanics that orbital terraformers and asteroid miners use? If you're at a treaty level that allows for establishing embassies, or perhaps that's a new treaty entirely, then you can send a ship with a diplomatic module (or embassy module if you want to make those separate) to orbit an alien population, and it will act as a link to that colony. So long as that treaty is maintained, an embassy module in orbit will help build relations or maybe soften the penalties from negative actions. Without the treaty, the opposite occurs.

I'm also enjoying the ideas of ground survey that has a lower body bound and can be informed by the orbital survey results, as well as more SIGINT-based espionage.
 

Offline froggiest1982

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Re: Replacing Teams?
« Reply #37 on: February 14, 2018, 07:29:03 PM »
Yes, that is a good idea. I was also wondering how to get the proposed scout team to the surface undetected :)

Making espionage a ship-based system (Russian Trawler) solves that problem. In early versions of Aurora you could learn tech from scanning alien ships with active sensors and that was removed as being too powerful (and because it made active sensors extremely provocative). A more focused, expensive module intended for signals intelligence would be a better option, especially as potential tech gains would be a minor and rare part of that. It would mainly be about establishing knowledge about population, ground force and ship capabilities (without necessarily being able to duplicate those capabilities).

The new sensor array could be a designed system, allowing a separate tech line plus variable size and effective range.

Perhaps Diplomacy could be handled both via ship and some form of ground installation (Embassy).

Hi @Steve Walmsley, question: How do I know if the ship in my system is an espionage ship or a diplomacy one? Also, I believe if you go down that path you may want to consider the diplomacy module as commercial and the espionage as military same as with Geo and Grav, that could possibly solve my dilemma as well. The embassy could be good to have but I may suggest that to be handled by diplomacy overview thick same as other agreements on diplomacy screen rather than building on the surface? I don't think have one embassy per system per planet modifier being a realistic one unless you add consulates, but it's already sounding too complicated.

It is a good idea. I've been thinking along the same lines. It makes sense that a ship could fully survey smaller bodies but larger ones would need a ground-based survey for the full impact. This could also be combined with another suggestion that certain worlds could be identified as having additional potential. Now this becomes something with a lot less micromanagement, as it might only be one or two worlds in a system.

I disagree sorry. I believe the concept of future tech will be misled this way. It is already possible with our tech to identify minerals presence IF we know what and how to look. If you want to modify that aspect, which I agree, then you may consider developing a tech expanding the simple geo sensor survey and advanced. You could have a basic sensor that tells you if there are minerals on a planet/asteroid but then you need to land there a team to identify how many and what. Then develop a series of more advanced geo survey sensors. Level one with an accuracy of 10% or so till the latest level 5 or 10 or whatever with 100% accuracy for late games. This module scheme will increase a lot of exploration depth and resource management in terms of where to focus our efforts pretty much becoming a game in the game without involving too much micromanagement as well.
 

Offline Graham

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Re: Replacing Teams?
« Reply #38 on: February 15, 2018, 12:25:17 AM »
Quote from: froggiest1982 link=topic=9830. msg106623#msg106623 date=1518658143

I disagree sorry.  I believe the concept of future tech will be misled this way.  It is already possible with our tech to identify minerals presence IF we know what and how to look.  If you want to modify that aspect, which I agree, then you may consider developing a tech expanding the simple geo sensor survey and advanced.  You could have a basic sensor that tells you if there are minerals on a planet/asteroid but then you need to land there a team to identify how many and what.  Then develop a series of more advanced geo survey sensors.  Level one with an accuracy of 10% or so till the latest level 5 or 10 or whatever with 100% accuracy for late games.  This module scheme will increase a lot of exploration depth and resource management in terms of where to focus our efforts pretty much becoming a game in the game without involving too much micromanagement as well.

Sorry but this sounds extremely tedious.  I already pretty much ignore survey teams.  The direction of making them something which you only do a few times per system, but increasing their meaningfulness appeals much more to me.  I also like the suggestion of adding a bit of depth with that random event table.  That way we add depth while removing tedium.
 

Offline alex_brunius

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Re: Replacing Teams?
« Reply #39 on: February 15, 2018, 02:41:48 AM »
I disagree sorry. I believe the concept of future tech will be misled this way. It is already possible with our tech to identify minerals presence IF we know what and how to look. If you want to modify that aspect, which I agree, then you may consider developing a tech expanding the simple geo sensor survey and advanced. You could have a basic sensor that tells you if there are minerals on a planet/asteroid but then you need to land there a team to identify how many and what. Then develop a series of more advanced geo survey sensors. Level one with an accuracy of 10% or so till the latest level 5 or 10 or whatever with 100% accuracy for late games. This module scheme will increase a lot of exploration depth and resource management in terms of where to focus our efforts pretty much becoming a game in the game without involving too much micromanagement as well.

Maybe something in-between?

How about:
Basic Geo survey sensors can survey accurately bodies up to size X, but most moons and all planets need a ground survey to complete it.
Improved Geo survey sensors can also survey accurately most smaller moons but almost all planets need a ground survey to complete it.
Advanced Geo survey sensors can survey accurately all moons and most smaller planets as well, typically only the 1-2 largest planets (if they exist) need ground survey.
Phased Geo survey sensors are just a helluva lot faster, but otherwise like Advanced.

This way the amount of situations where you need to do multiple surveys is reduced to minimal and if you really dislike microing ground surveys you can put more weight to researching Geo sensors, but can also early on make up for lack of tech with more effort (into ground survey), or if you like that RP aspect of having to do extensive surveys simply don't research improved Geo sensors.


I also second it could be interesting to have bodies that are space surveyed which no minerals sometimes being classified as "no potential" so you don't need to ground survey all of them, or sometimes being classified as alot of potential which could mean a more extensive ground survey is required to reveal their true potential. This all brings depth and uniqueness to bodies which I am always for!
 

Offline Zincat

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Re: Replacing Teams?
« Reply #40 on: February 15, 2018, 04:48:42 AM »
I disagree sorry. I believe the concept of future tech will be misled this way. It is already possible with our tech to identify minerals presence IF we know what and how to look. If you want to modify that aspect, which I agree, then you may consider developing a tech expanding the simple geo sensor survey and advanced. You could have a basic sensor that tells you if there are minerals on a planet/asteroid but then you need to land there a team to identify how many and what. Then develop a series of more advanced geo survey sensors. Level one with an accuracy of 10% or so till the latest level 5 or 10 or whatever with 100% accuracy for late games. This module scheme will increase a lot of exploration depth and resource management in terms of where to focus our efforts pretty much becoming a game in the game without involving too much micromanagement as well.

Sorry to be blunt, but this sounds like micro hell, even worse than the team system we have right now. Under this system, you would NOT BE ABLE to use a planet until you geosurvey it, by bringing troops on it. That's seriously horrible, this is a game, a happy medium of realism and playability is the key. Besides it's not even realistic, geology does not work like that. Yes, yes Tn material are basically imaginary elements, but still it is reasonable to suppose that in game lore they DO have preferred "spawning" environments,  that it is not completely random.

After reading the rest of the thread, I will remodulate my original proposal a bit.

- All bodies under a certain size can be completely surveyed by a geosurvey ship. The size is up to Steve of course. Maybe, 400km or smaller?
- All larger bodies cannot be completely surveyed, because sensors are not magic and cannot completely penetrate the larger body. However, just by studying the planet (maybe using some extra time for geosurvey? Or, just for free as a roleplay element) an estimate can be made of the potential of finding additional TN minerals. Most bodies will have no potential ("Its just a dirt/silicate/ferrous/whatever rock boss, sorry but we're not going to find any TN material here" ), some bodies will have "Some potential", and a few bodies will have "high potential" of finding additional TN materials.

I believe this to be a happy medium of usability, balance and also roleplay potential. All the while, reducing the tedium of moving the teams around AND making the galaxy a more interesting place. Because not all worlds are the same, and even a planet with potential can become a strategic target.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2018, 05:00:39 AM by Zincat »
 

Offline Steve Walmsley

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Re: Replacing Teams?
« Reply #41 on: February 15, 2018, 04:53:48 AM »
After reading the rest of the thread, I will remodulate my original proposal a bit.

- All bodies under a certain size can be completely surveyed by a geosurvey ship. The size is up to Steve of course. Maybe, 400km or smaller?
- All larger bodies cannot be completely surveyed, because sensors are not magic and cannot completely penetrate the larger body. However, just by studying the planet (maybe using some extra time for geosurvey? Or, just for free as a roleplay element) an estimate can be made of the potential of finding additional TN minerals. Most bodies will have no potential ("Its just a dirt/silicate/ferrous/whatever rock boss, sorry but we're not going to find and TN material here" ), some bodies will have "Some potential", and a few bodies will have "high potential" of finding additional TN materials.


Something on these lines is my current intention. I'll also change the land-based survey to points based instead of random.
 

Offline alex_brunius

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Re: Replacing Teams?
« Reply #42 on: February 15, 2018, 05:51:06 AM »
Something on these lines is my current intention. I'll also change the land-based survey to points based instead of random.

Sounds great! Being able to visually see progress X/Y points should reduce frustration alot when ground surveying larger bodies, and could make surveying large planets a more epic undertaking.
 

Offline schroeam

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Re: Replacing Teams?
« Reply #43 on: February 15, 2018, 07:24:35 AM »
I like all of these ideas.  I really think having civilians and scientists involved in the diplomatic and xeno/survey missions adds flavor, but not a requirement.  One question:  Would it be possible to establish an embassy on an alien colony world to allow for further diplomatic growth and the use of civilian diplomats without the continued use of a ship to conduct negotiations?

Adam.
 

Offline TMaekler

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Re: Replacing Teams?
« Reply #44 on: February 15, 2018, 07:38:31 AM »
- All bodies under a certain size can be completely surveyed by a geosurvey ship. The size is up to Steve of course. Maybe, 400km or smaller?
- All larger bodies cannot be completely surveyed, because sensors are not magic and cannot completely penetrate the larger body.
Maybe using another tech line which increases sensor abilities. So you start with bodies <200km and get up to <2000km with proper research. Or whatever values Steve thinks would fit.
 

 

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