Author Topic: Oberoth class Superdreadnought - Thought exercise, etc.  (Read 1706 times)

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Offline Starmantle

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Oberoth class Superdreadnought - Thought exercise, etc.
« on: March 08, 2018, 11:02:13 PM »

This is a summary of a thread over on /r/Aurora4x about a thought exercise involving a Superdreadnought and accompanying plans.  Visit there for a slightly more full exposition - https://www.reddit.com/r/aurora4x/comments/82mtu2/oberoth_class_superdreadnought_revised/

A few days ago, I posted a thought exercise about creating a super dreadnought based on an orbital habitat (Iranon79's idea) around 3 million tons, which could therefore be built at construction yards and which had a long maintenance life, but would be scrapped at the end of it's service life to avoid the need for large shipyards, maintenance facilities, or planetary hangars at any point.  It's an absurd idea, but a few people had suggestions to make it better.

Nori-Silverrage and CNWagner pointed out that I could drop deployment time and add 10,000 colonist capacity which, paired with the orbital habitat, means I could create an impromptu colony anywhere capable of providing shore leave.  Big improvement.

Baconholic pointed out that technically, only one thing can fail in a 5-day increment, so once I approached 100% IFR, I could just lean-into it, and mitigate by having lots of MSP storage and lots of small parts.  On a similar note, Hypervelocityvomit suggested I keep AFT to 5 digits to mitigate overflow errors. 

There were some other commnity tweaks to the actual design too, which brought me to the revised Oberoth class Superdreadnought.  It has 150% stronger shields, 25% thicker armor, 150% more Gauss turrets, 132% more hangar space, is 4% faster (trivial, but in-universe, it's helpful to be faster than other fleet ships), is 35.7% cheaper, and 66.7% of the size, now a 2 million tons.  There are 12,038 separate parts that could fail and 289,766 MSP, giving it many decades of service life without overhaul or maintenance. 

The fighter compliment listed below is a more-than double-strength Kodiak Assault Wing - https://www.reddit.com/r/aurora4x/comments/7xm53v/combines_kodiak_assault_wing, 32 additional breaching shuttles, plus a lot of peripheral light shuttles and scouts.  Because the Oberoth herself relies on missile waves, her fighter compliment relies on a very different strategy.  As massive as that compliment is, it takes up just 57% of the capacious hangars, leaving 60,100 tons available for other needs. 

I didn't design any special systems for this, using just the normal Battlecruiser fleet tech from my lst big game - https://www.reddit.com/r/aurora4x/comments/7tfqc2/un_battlecruiser_fleets_full_list_doctrine_and

In-universe, I think this might be designed in the far future after a disastrous civil war between the Navy and Capitalist Alliance on one side and the Combine/ Workers Guild on the other, splitting the U.N.'s systems and halting technological advancement.  Splinter groups from both factions, isolated down long chains would fight for decades until the Invaders came and wiped out all shipyards and most of humanity and their interstellar brothers and sisters.  Remnants of both factions would eventually join to create this, along with other fleet elements to wipe out the invaders once and for all!  (or some such).

Anyway, here's the ship.  I divided up the display a little to help see what's what. 


Quote
    Oberoth class Superdreadnought    2 000 000 tons     29358 Crew     384443.6 BP      TCS 40000  TH 260000  EM 180000
    6500 km/s     Armour 20-1414     Shields 6000-300     Sensors 504/672/0/0     Damage Control Rating 331     PPV 7143
    Maint Life 1.01 Years     MSP 289766    AFR 96676%    IFR 1342.7%    1YR 285146    5YR 4277186    Max Repair 2100 MSP
    Intended Deployment Time: 12 months    Flight Crew Berths 2726   
    Flag Bridge    Hangar Deck Capacity 139000 tons     Cryo Drop Capacity: 6 Battalions    Magazine 114552    Cryogenic Berths 14000    Habitation Capacity 50 000    Cargo Handling Multiplier 80    Tractor Beam     

    1250 EP Magnetic Fusion Drive (208 )    Power 1250    Fuel Use 15%    Signature 1250    Exp 10%
    Fuel Capacity 195 000 000 Litres    Range 117.0 billion km   (208 days at full power)
    Xi R300/360 Shields (1200)   Total Fuel Cost  18 000 Litres per hour  (432 000 per day)

    20cm C5 Far Ultraviolet Laser (20)    Range 480 000km     TS: 8000 km/s     Power 10-5     RM 5    ROF 10        10 10 10 10 10 8 7 6 5 5
    Quad Gauss Cannon R4-17 Turret (60x20)    Range 40 000km     TS: 32000 km/s     Power 0-0     RM 4    ROF 5        1 1 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0

    CIWS-320 (48x10)    Range 1000 km     TS: 32000 km/s     ROF 5       Base 50% To Hit

    Fire Control S02 240-8000 (4)    Max Range: 480 000 km   TS: 8000 km/s     98 96 94 92 90 88 85 83 81 79
    Fire Control S08 240-32000 (2)    Max Range: 480 000 km   TS: 32000 km/s     98 96 94 92 90 88 85 83 81 79
    Fire Control S04 120-32000 (4)    Max Range: 240 000 km   TS: 32000 km/s     96 92 88 83 79 75 71 67 62 58
    Fire Control S02 60-32000 (8 )    Max Range: 120 000 km   TS: 32000 km/s     92 83 75 67 58 50 42 33 25 17

    Inertial Confinement Fusion Reactor Technology PB-1.25 (1)     Total Power Output 6    Armour 0    Exp 20%
    Inertial Confinement Fusion Reactor Technology PB-1.25 (8 )     Total Power Output 96    Armour 0    Exp 20%

    Size 4 Missile Launcher (25% Reduction) (6000)    Missile Size 4    Rate of Fire 1715
    Size 4 Missile Launcher (40)    Missile Size 4    Rate of Fire 25
    Size 1 Missile Launcher (25% Reduction) (440)    Missile Size 1    Rate of Fire 430
    Size 1 Missile Launcher (120)    Missile Size 1    Rate of Fire 5
    Size 10 Missile Launcher (25% Reduction) (120)    Missile Size 10    Rate of Fire 4290
    Size 12 Utility Missile Launcher (2)    Missile Size 12    Rate of Fire 55
    Missile Fire Control FC216-R1 (6)     Range 216.0m km    Resolution 1
    Missile Fire Control FC12-R1 (132)     Range 13.0m km    Resolution 1
    Missile Fire Control FC864-R100 (304)     Range 864.0m km    Resolution 100

    Longstrike Anti-ship Missile (24796)  Speed: 20 300 km/s   End: 700.4m    Range: 933.1m km   WH: 1    Size: 4    TH: 67/40/20

    Longclaw Mk II (8200)  Speed: 81 000 km/s   End: 6.2m    Range: 30.2m km   WH: 1    Size: 1    TH: 1350/810/405
    Meteor Mk III (1760)  Speed: 81 000 km/s   End: 0.5m    Range: 2.3m km   WH: 1    Size: 1    TH: 1674/1004/502

    Nova Bomb Mk IV (480)  Speed: 54 000 km/s   End: 3.6m    Range: 11.6m km   WH: 81    Size: 10    TH: 666/399/199
    Slamhammer Light Bomb (120)  Speed: 66 000 km/s   End: 5.9m    Range: 23.4m km   WH: 9    Size: 1    TH: 286/171/85

    Nova Mine Mk IV (20)  Speed: 0 km/s   End: 0m    Range: 0.4m km   WH: 0    Size: 11.1437    TH: 0/0/0
    Flare Mk II (10)  Speed: 0 km/s   End: 1874.3d    Range: 0m km   WH: 0    Size: 12    TH: 0/0/0
    Volt II (4)  Speed: 0 km/s   End: 0m    Range: 0m km   WH: 0    Size: 11.999    TH: 0/0/0
    Heat Vision II (4)  Speed: 0 km/s   End: 0m    Range: 0m km   WH: 0    Size: 12    TH: 0/0/0
    Crybaby Buoy (10)  Speed: 0 km/s   End: 0m    Range: 0m km   WH: 0    Size: 1    TH: 0/0/0
    Watchman class Sensor Buoy (20)  Speed: 0 km/s   End: 0m    Range: 0m km   WH: 0    Size: 1    TH: 0/0/0
    Crybaby Probe (20)  Speed: 10 000 km/s   End: 1.3d    Range: 1082.9m km   WH: 0    Size: 1    TH: 33/20/10

    Active Search Sensor MR504-R1 (1)     GPS 2100     Range 504.0m km    MCR 54.9m km    Resolution 1
    Active Search Sensor MR3024-R100 (1)     GPS 126000     Range 3 024.0m km    Resolution 100
    Active Search Sensor MR10-R50 (1)     GPS 300     Range 10.2m km    Resolution 50
    Active Search Sensor MR14-R100 (1)     GPS 600     Range 14.4m km    Resolution 100
    Active Search Sensor MR3-R5 (1)     GPS 30     Range 3.2m km    Resolution 5
    Thermal Sensor TH28-504 (1)     Sensitivity 504     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  504m km
    EM Detection Sensor EM28-672 (1)     Sensitivity 672     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  672m km

    ECCM-3 (32)         ECM 40

    Strike Group
    46x Kodiak-B Heavy Gunfighter/Interceptor   Speed: 30000 km/s    Size: 10
    25x Polaris-B Bomber/Interceptor   Speed: 30000 km/s    Size: 10
    16x Fozzie-B Heavy EW Interceptor   Speed: 30000 km/s    Size: 10
    12x Marsican-B Breaching Shuttle   Speed: 30000 km/s    Size: 10
    8x Sun Bear-B Gunship Leader   Speed: 30000 km/s    Size: 10
    10x Scout Cub Sensor Fighter   Speed: 30000 km/s    Size: 2.5
    6x Wojtek-B Light Tanker   Speed: 30000 km/s    Size: 10
    2x Agriotherium-B Heavy EM Scout   Speed: 30000 km/s    Size: 10
    2x Beorn-B Bomber Escort   Speed: 30000 km/s    Size: 10

    32x Taurus-C Breaching Shuttle   Speed: 38501 km/s    Size: 9.74

    4x Grylls Jump Scout   Speed: 30737 km/s    Size: 2.44
    6x Y-AWACs-B Recon Fighter   Speed: 16891 km/s    Size: 4.44
    2x Y-Extension-B Light Tanker   Speed: 16891 km/s    Size: 4.44
    4x Crybaby Cub Sensor Fighter   Speed: 30737 km/s    Size: 2.44

    2x Stiletto Insertion Shuttle   Speed: 39062 km/s    Size: 1.92
    2x Chinook Fast Shuttle   Speed: 33482 km/s    Size: 2.24
    2x Angel Marine Dropship Escort   Speed: 38560 km/s    Size: 3.89

    Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s

    This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes

Note that the Longstrike Anti-ship Missile is a bus with 2 sub-munitions that strike for 9 damage each.

Has this grown into a rational, viable design?  Probably not, because goodness, who needs this much firepower in one place?  Also, it relies on at least one exploit, costs an absurd amount resources, probably throws some in-game errors, is a liability, can never be refitted, and can never get an armor repair.

On the other hand, it requires no shipyard to build, requires no maintenance facilities or other upkeep costs over the course of its long life, provides its own shore leave facilities, and is formidable in combat. 

But it is FUN and it's more viable than I thought it would be.
 

Offline TCD

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Re: Oberoth class Superdreadnought - Thought exercise, etc.
« Reply #1 on: March 09, 2018, 03:02:57 PM »
I love the idea of these huge ships, but unless you're building an equally large jump tender this is basically a defensive design isn't it? I suppose you could pair it with a gate builder but that's going to be a very sloooow assault.

Of course if you really want to have fun with a superdreadnought the size of a small moon you should stop wasting space on all those gauss cannon. You don't really have to worry about insignificant rebel fighters too small for your turbo lasers to hit.
 

Offline Michael Sandy

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Re: Oberoth class Superdreadnought - Thought exercise, etc.
« Reply #2 on: March 09, 2018, 05:03:53 PM »
It is somewhat an open question whether carrying the ability to lay down a colony versus carrying an entertainment module is more efficient.  You can really cut down on the crew endurance cost and mass with an entertainment module, and you don't lose time on station laying down a colony.

What is the largest commercial jump drive you can make?
 

Offline Starmantle

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Re: Oberoth class Superdreadnought - Thought exercise, etc.
« Reply #3 on: March 09, 2018, 05:44:25 PM »
I think it's probably a lot easier to use a construction ship, TCD.  Most, maybe even all of space is connected by gates during the time this would be built and if not, an external construction ship is preferable to my eye.

And I wouldn't worry about it, those rebels would have to be some kind of space wizard to hit our exhaust ports. 

Michael Sandy - it needs to be an orbital habitat so I don't have to build a shipyard for it.  The initial point of the thought exercise was to save the immense investment in a shipyard for something like this.  Adding room for 1,000 colonists is then trivial. 

 

Offline Gabethebaldandbold

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Re: Oberoth class Superdreadnought - Thought exercise, etc.
« Reply #4 on: March 12, 2018, 02:24:09 PM »
I love the idea of these huge ships, but unless you're building an equally large jump tender this is basically a defensive design isn't it? I suppose you could pair it with a gate builder but that's going to be a very sloooow assault.

Of course if you really want to have fun with a superdreadnought the size of a small moon you should stop wasting space on all those gauss cannon. You don't really have to worry about insignificant rebel fighters too small for your turbo lasers to hit.
That space would be much better used by having a huge unguarded exaust port that leads directly into your unstable reactor core
edit.: extra points if it can fit a small freighter
« Last Edit: March 12, 2018, 03:45:01 PM by Gabethebaldandbold »
To beam, or not to beam.   That is the question
 

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Re: Oberoth class Superdreadnought - Thought exercise, etc.
« Reply #5 on: March 13, 2018, 12:01:46 AM »
this is going a little tangential here, sorry, but:

i don't get why everybody seemingly thinks building their ships in factory instead of shipyard is an advantage.   the yards to build this thing cost 1/3 as much as enough CF to get the job done in the same amount of time.   

more directly related:  lose the armor, use the space for shields.   armor that cant be repaired is pretty bad, and if there is one good thing about building Stupid Huge it is the potential for invincible-shield-flawless-victory.

dunno how the AFR bug works exactly but the actual effective rate of failure increases over time.   your death star may be built in such a way as to cause all of reality to fail around it in a little over a year.   which, i can't lie, is kind of cool, but may not be intended.

i also think it should be the "Elbereth" class not the Oberoth.   you stand behind it and monsters leave you the f- ALONE
 

Offline Starmantle

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Re: Oberoth class Superdreadnought - Thought exercise, etc.
« Reply #6 on: March 19, 2018, 01:23:15 AM »
> i don't get why everybody seemingly thinks building their ships in factory instead of shipyard is an advantage.

Because it's worth it to invest heavily in factories and factories can build incredibly useful things like mines and other factories, while a 2 million ton military  shipyard is honestly of limited economic value (though you could surely use it to  make commercial ships too, which is interesting... you'd just need an incredibly expensive retool)

> the actual effective rate of failure increases over time

Yes, until it's 100% for a 5 day period.  But you can't get more than 1 failure in a 5-day period, so... 

> "Elbereth" class not the Oberoth

Can't argue there.
 

eponymous

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Re: Oberoth class Superdreadnought - Thought exercise, etc.
« Reply #7 on: March 19, 2018, 09:07:46 AM »
factories are incredibly expensive- the fact they take a lot of factory capacity to build is the real problem, as contrasted with shipyards which add slips while churning out goodies.   you build them because, as you said, there are critical projects that you can only do with factories.   building the death star means your factories aren't working on those projects.   

i wasn't suggesting the two million ton shipyard is anything other than an expense.   it just happens to be a much smaller expense than either tying up or overproducing factories.   opportunity cost is famously subjective, but i reckon the overhead is higher than the explicit cost with any factory built orbitat "ship" 

if the mechanics of increasing failure rate work by increasing the AFR stat (i've no idea), then whatever bug you thought you were avoiding by keeping quoted AFR to five digits may actually come back to bite you as the death star ages.
 

Offline Iranon

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Re: Oberoth class Superdreadnought - Thought exercise, etc.
« Reply #8 on: March 19, 2018, 10:44:39 AM »
TBH, you can use construction factories for most of your shipbuilding BP... I typically manufacture most of the expensive components in advance.
This also avoids tech bottlenecks (build each component as the research project is finished. Leave armour for last, build the actual ship once that is done).
 

Offline Starmantle

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Re: Oberoth class Superdreadnought - Thought exercise, etc.
« Reply #9 on: March 19, 2018, 11:55:20 AM »
> you can use construction factories for most of your shipbuilding BP...

Indeed!

I try to keep this on track, depending on other obligations.

Doesn't seem to work with fighters, though. 
 

Offline I_Sicarius_I

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Re: Oberoth class Superdreadnought - Thought exercise, etc.
« Reply #10 on: March 21, 2018, 08:51:15 AM »
TBH, you can use construction factories for most of your shipbuilding BP... I typically manufacture most of the expensive components in advance.
This also avoids tech bottlenecks (build each component as the research project is finished. Leave armour for last, build the actual ship once that is done).

I tend to do the same thing. I can build componets while a new sensor or engine or whatever is researching. Cuts down on total time to construct ships(which i tend to make larger than most)
 

Offline Starmantle

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Re: Oberoth class Superdreadnought - Thought exercise, etc.
« Reply #11 on: March 21, 2018, 02:01:35 PM »
It also helps when trying to balance out when ships launch.

If I'm building a fleet, but it looks like the command ship will take 6 months longer than anything else, I'll try to build components for that, for example, to have less wasted time. 
 
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