Author Topic: Cold War Comments Thread  (Read 75172 times)

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Offline Andrew

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Re: Cold War Comments Thread
« Reply #225 on: November 01, 2020, 06:02:47 PM »
That was very fortunate for the Rehorish D'bringi alliance only a days difference saves them from having their fleet mauled in a WP assault, win or lose they could not afford the dead and crippled ships with a war looming nearer home and its unlikely they would have won cleanly enough to take earths forts out so even a win would have left them with the humans behind them still hostile
 

Offline Black

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Re: Cold War Comments Thread
« Reply #226 on: November 02, 2020, 07:23:17 AM »
This could be interesting, if the whole fleet leaves and humans will probe the jump point and find out that they are gone. They will most likely realize, that something went horribly wrong for Rehorish and D'bringi to do that. I wonder how would they react to this.
 

Offline Garfunkel

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Re: Cold War Comments Thread
« Reply #227 on: November 14, 2020, 06:23:30 PM »
Things are heating up for sure!
 

Offline misanthropope

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Re: Cold War Comments Thread
« Reply #228 on: November 14, 2020, 08:26:31 PM »
am i the only one who has switched to pulling for the D'Bringi?  dudes earned the W, no two ways about it, and i hope they get it.
 

Offline Black

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Re: Cold War Comments Thread
« Reply #229 on: November 15, 2020, 08:20:42 AM »
D'Bringi have speed advantage, but problem is that they are on defensive, eventually they will have to stand and fight as they most likely cannot abandon every colony to Minteks. I wonder how many dreadnoughts Minteks actually have.

I only know Starfire from books and if I remember correctly there are also battleships in Starfire, are they same size as battlecruisers or are the dreadnoughts two sizes above battlecruisers?
 

Offline Kurt (OP)

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Re: Cold War Comments Thread
« Reply #230 on: November 15, 2020, 08:51:20 AM »
D'Bringi have speed advantage, but problem is that they are on defensive, eventually they will have to stand and fight as they most likely cannot abandon every colony to Minteks. I wonder how many dreadnoughts Minteks actually have.

I only know Starfire from books and if I remember correctly there are also battleships in Starfire, are they same size as battlecruisers or are the dreadnoughts two sizes above battlecruisers?

Battlecruisers have 80 hull spaces, speed 6 tactically and 3 strategically
Battleships have 100 hull spaces, speed five tactically, and 2 strategically
Superdreadnoughts have 130 hull spaces, speed five tactically, and 2 strategically

This gives the Mintek an advantage in battle, but a disadvantage in maneuver. 
 
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Offline TheTalkingMeowth

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Re: Cold War Comments Thread
« Reply #231 on: November 15, 2020, 09:59:05 AM »
D'Bringi have speed advantage, but problem is that they are on defensive, eventually they will have to stand and fight as they most likely cannot abandon every colony to Minteks. I wonder how many dreadnoughts Minteks actually have.

I only know Starfire from books and if I remember correctly there are also battleships in Starfire, are they same size as battlecruisers or are the dreadnoughts two sizes above battlecruisers?

Battlecruisers have 80 hull spaces, speed 6 tactically and 3 strategically
Battleships have 100 hull spaces, speed five tactically, and 2 strategically
Superdreadnoughts have 130 hull spaces, speed five tactically, and 2 strategically

This gives the Mintek an advantage in battle, but a disadvantage in maneuver.

I seem to remember "fast" SDs being a thing from the Arachnid war books. What was that about?
 

Offline Andrew

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Re: Cold War Comments Thread
« Reply #232 on: November 15, 2020, 11:43:22 AM »
Fast SD's are built on fast carrier hulls, which are higher tech than basic SD's they also need an extra engine room so they have slightly less weaponry than a normal SD. The CVA hull costs more than an SD hull and also costs extra to mount weapons on them. If I remember correctly from ISW 4 they are largely used to escort carrier groups as they cost so much more than a normal SD and a fleet of that tech level will be slowed anyway as they almost certianly have larger ships than SD's with them.
 

Offline Kurt (OP)

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Re: Cold War Comments Thread
« Reply #233 on: November 15, 2020, 06:28:34 PM »
am i the only one who has switched to pulling for the D'Bringi?  dudes earned the W, no two ways about it, and i hope they get it.

The D'Bringi have grown on me, no doubt.  They have also lasted longer in the campaign than I thought they would. 

Kurt
 

Offline Gyrfalcon

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Re: Cold War Comments Thread
« Reply #234 on: November 16, 2020, 01:03:48 AM »
So basically, as with the HH series, once you can build SDs, there is absolutely no reason to keep building Battleships, as they're less effective in the only role they fit into?

One thing I've noticed so far in Starfire is that there's no real rock-paper-scissors to the battles - whoever has the mass advantage, wins 100% of the time. You can't swarm a battleship with escorts and expect a win - it just draws out how long it takes the battleship to shoot them all to pieces.

Is there any point in the tech level where this paradigm changes and allows for other tactics?
 

Offline Hawkeye

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Re: Cold War Comments Thread
« Reply #235 on: November 16, 2020, 01:46:26 AM »
IIRC, the Eaters in the Kurt's Phoenix Campaign  http://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php?board=18.0   used Corvette swarm tactics vs. technologically superior victims pretty successfully, until the technological disadvantage became too large. At that point, they would have to put more expensive stuff on the CTs, which runs kind of counter to the whole concept of cheap, throw-away swarm tactics.

As for changing the paradigm. Once fighters enter the field, everything changes.
Unfortunately, not in a very good way.
Enough to say that, if your enemy has fighters and you don't, you're pretty much screwed - so instead of bigger is always better, you get, fighters beat everything, at least until a few tech-levels up, when anti-fighter weapons become more efficient- yeah, they are a wee bit OP, IMO.

Note: I'm not a very experienced SF player and don't have a lot of experience with fighters. The above is mostly concluded from reading Steve's, Kurt's and other's AARs.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2020, 01:56:20 AM by Hawkeye »
Ralph Hoenig, Germany
 

Offline Kurt (OP)

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Re: Cold War Comments Thread
« Reply #236 on: November 16, 2020, 06:24:08 AM »
So basically, as with the HH series, once you can build SDs, there is absolutely no reason to keep building Battleships, as they're less effective in the only role they fit into?

One thing I've noticed so far in Starfire is that there's no real rock-paper-scissors to the battles - whoever has the mass advantage, wins 100% of the time. You can't swarm a battleship with escorts and expect a win - it just draws out how long it takes the battleship to shoot them all to pieces.

Is there any point in the tech level where this paradigm changes and allows for other tactics?

The relation of mass to victory is not as clear as that, in my opinion.  Although, having the mass advantage does indeed help.  The combatants in this case all have around the same tech levels, so that tends to give the advantage to other things, like mass in this case.   

There are a couple of critical points.  The introduction of larger hulls which have the same movement speed as the smaller hull almost always causes the smaller hull to be relegated to special functions, like minesweeper, assault ship, or escort.  This happens with the CL/CA/BC, and as you noted the BB/SD. 

Starfire tends to lean towards giving the advantage to big ships, in my opinion, although it is not completely one sided.  It depends on the weapons mounted on the ships and other factors.  I like this, because I like big ships.  However, swarm tactics are always possible.  From tech levels 1-7, the best swarm is composed of speed 8 corvettes.  A well-handled swarm can run down and destroy a group of larger ships, but, if the larger ships are well handled, it can become very dangerous for the swarm.  To ensure victory a swarm needs around a 150% mass advantage, and with that it can succeed.  The swarm has other advantages as well.  Even with the reduced construction rates in my campaign you can build a swarm quickly.  And they are fast both tactically and strategically, which can be a significant advantage.  They do have countervailing disadvantages, though.  A swarm victory is almost always expensive in terms of lost swarm ships.  And a loss is usually a disaster, with the entire force lost.  And while they can almost always pick their battles, as they are faster than anything else, if backed into a corner and forced to fight things can go wrong quickly. 

This equation changes at HT 8, when fighters are introduced.  Fighters immediately become the new swarm attrition weapon, and they are good at it.  A group of CVE's is fast and can attack from beyond missile range, never coming into range of the enemy's fleet.  And if they lose their fighters, they can return to base and load more. 

Finally, as you noted, the mass advantage seems overly important, but in part that is because I'm playing this solo.  Whether I a good, bad, or indifferent player, I'm playing against myself so both sides have the same advantage/disadvantage.  That will tend to magnify the differences between the two forces, where in a battle between two different players, the varying levels of skill and knowledge of the rules would perhaps balance out things like design differences or mass advantages. 

Kurt
 

Offline Kurt (OP)

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Re: Cold War Comments Thread
« Reply #237 on: November 16, 2020, 06:29:08 AM »
IIRC, the Eaters in the Kurt's Phoenix Campaign  http://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php?board=18.0   used Corvette swarm tactics vs. technologically superior victims pretty successfully, until the technological disadvantage became too large. At that point, they would have to put more expensive stuff on the CTs, which runs kind of counter to the whole concept of cheap, throw-away swarm tactics.

As for changing the paradigm. Once fighters enter the field, everything changes.
Unfortunately, not in a very good way.
Enough to say that, if your enemy has fighters and you don't, you're pretty much screwed - so instead of bigger is always better, you get, fighters beat everything, at least until a few tech-levels up, when anti-fighter weapons become more efficient- yeah, they are a wee bit OP, IMO.

Note: I'm not a very experienced SF player and don't have a lot of experience with fighters. The above is mostly concluded from reading Steve's, Kurt's and other's AARs.

Well, towards the end the Eaters were using SD's as swarm ships, really.  That was one of the reasons that game got too big to continue. 

Fighters do tend to be game changers, but in my opinion they aren't everything.  Once they are developed a race can continue to emphasize its battle line and use fighters in a support role, intended to fend off enemy fighters rather than be the primary strike weapon.  They do tend to become very important, though. 

I haven't introduced any swarm using races into this campaign yet.  I tend to like big ships, and swarms can be messy to handle.  We'll see if it comes up. 

Kurt
 

Offline Starslayer_D

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Re: Cold War Comments Thread
« Reply #238 on: November 16, 2020, 07:37:55 AM »
SDs are superior to BBs untill you try to squeeze them through a 100 HS warp point.
 

Offline Kurt (OP)

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Re: Cold War Comments Thread
« Reply #239 on: November 16, 2020, 12:16:56 PM »
SDs are superior to BBs untill you try to squeeze them through a 100 HS warp point.

Very true, under most of the rules out there.  For those that don't know, under standard rules, warp points have hard capacity limits that cannot be exceeded with out triggering a "simultaneous transit".  These capacity limits go from 100 to 500 hull spaces, which means that along any given chain of warp points you are almost certainly going to encounter a warp point that is limited to 100 hull spaces, meaning those powerful, impressive superdreadnoughts or monitors that you built can't get past that warp point.  I really hate those limitations, so I usually ignore that part of the rules, or substitute an alternate rule, as I have for the Cold War campaign. 

Under the rules I'm using, warp points have a capacity limit per movement impulse, which if exceeded triggers a simultaneous transit.  That limit ranges from 20 to 100 hull spaces, and is cumulative per turn, although if more than one ship goes through on any movement impulse the second ship counts for double its hull space.  If a ship larger than the limit goes through, it takes multiple impulses.  In other words, a warp point with a 100 space limit can handle one battleship per movement impulse, or six heavy cruisers plus six corvettes, or twelve destroyers.  Or three superdreadnoughts and three destroyers. 

Simultaneous transits happen when you force more ships through a warp point than can fit under the rules you are using.  Approximately 30% of the ships simultaneously transiting explode on exiting the warp point because they interpenetrated with their closest neighbors.  This may be the only way to force a heavily defended warp point, however, losing 30% of your fleet before you fight the battles means that after several such battles you won't have a fleet left. 

Kurt