Author Topic: Twelve Colonies Comments Thread  (Read 22587 times)

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Offline Garfunkel

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Re: Twelve Colonies Comments Thread
« Reply #45 on: March 16, 2022, 06:48:55 PM »
Are those enemy FACs with box launchers!?  :o

Yes. Did you also note the 17,500 ton base launching salvos of 76 missiles at four minute intervals? :)
Ohohoh yes yes yes I did!  ;D

AMM/PD against NPRs just got a bit more complex and that's a good thing, thanks Steve!
 
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Offline nuclearslurpee

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Re: Twelve Colonies Comments Thread
« Reply #46 on: March 16, 2022, 07:04:00 PM »
AMM/PD against NPRs just got a bit more complex and that's a good thing, thanks Steve!

The best point defense is a good point offense!

Jokes aside I'm interested to see how NPRs with box launchers turn out, many of the playerbase will have to learn that box launchers can in fact be countered and are not all-powerful I-WIN buttons, I suspect.
 
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Offline Black

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Re: Twelve Colonies Comments Thread
« Reply #47 on: March 17, 2022, 01:24:21 AM »
Really enjoyed last update, very nice that Precursors are getting some new toys.

I wonder if we now have box launchers for NPRs, maybe we are also getting surprise NPR fighters :D
« Last Edit: March 17, 2022, 01:27:33 AM by Black »
 

Offline El Pip

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Re: Twelve Colonies Comments Thread
« Reply #48 on: March 17, 2022, 04:01:07 AM »
I normally regard beam fighters as more ancillary combatants, suitable for picking off small detachments of heavier warships or maybe a mostly missile based fleet that's out of ammo, but not really effective for a straight up fight against a comparable force of capital ships unsupported. This may be a sign I've been underestimating them.
My main concern has always been a fighter force being picked off by AMM fire before it even gets a chance to get into range.

In my current game a typical NPR AMM escort cruiser has 1500 missiles with a 2m km range. Sure the Vipers can shoot down incoming missiles, but as the end of that update showed a lot of shots got through to hit the Battlestars and the fleets railguns were also important. If the enemy had deployed a couple of AMM escort cruisers things might have been very different, so I'm going to wait and see what happens in that scenario.
 

Offline Black

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Re: Twelve Colonies Comments Thread
« Reply #49 on: March 17, 2022, 04:19:39 AM »
Yeah beam fighters were not really successful against the massed AMM strike, they got lucky that the enemy targeted motherships that had sufficient armour belt to soak it.
 

Offline gpt3

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Re: Twelve Colonies Comments Thread
« Reply #50 on: March 17, 2022, 08:02:51 AM »
Yeah beam fighters were not really successful against the massed AMM strike, they got lucky that the enemy targeted motherships that had sufficient armour belt to soak it.

Isn't that more of a problem with AMMs in general, not beam fighters specifically? There aren't very many effective point-defense counters to massed AMM strikes.

That said, since AMMs don't retarget, it seems like losses would be at most one ship per salvo. In response, one could try creating a "bait" fighter/FAC designed to deliberately draw AMM fire (perhaps piloted by convicted criminals or political prisoners).
Code: [Select]
Chaff class Scout (P)      50 tons       1 Crew       15.7 BP       TCS 1    TH 22    EM 0
22705 km/s      Armour 1-1       Shields 0-0       HTK 1      Sensors 0/0/0/0      DCR 0      PPV 0
Maint Life 0 Years     MSP 0    AFR 9%    IFR 0.1%    1YR 0    5YR 5    Max Repair 18 MSP
Lieutenant Commander    Control Rating 1   
Intended Deployment Time: 3 days    Morale Check Required   

Magneto-plasma Drive  EP22.40 (1)    Power 22.4    Fuel Use 1496.66%    Signature 22.40    Explosion 20%
Fuel Capacity 4,000 Litres    Range 0.98 billion km (11 hours at full power)

Active Search Sensor AS31-R500 (1)     GPS 1050     Range 31.8m km    Resolution 500

This design is classed as a Fighter for production, combat and planetary interaction
This design is classed as a a for auto-assignment purposes
« Last Edit: March 17, 2022, 08:04:58 AM by gpt3 »
 
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Offline kilo

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Re: Twelve Colonies Comments Thread
« Reply #51 on: March 17, 2022, 09:07:18 AM »
I have a question about fire control modus when engaging fighter spam. How do you automate target changes in such a situation? You want 1 fire control system per target and switch them whenever some fighter kicks the bucket. It is either extremely tedious or you use 'fire at will' which concentrates the fire at the target on the top.

Isn't fire at will random targeting? I don't think its supposed to focus fire.

If my mind serves me, the last time I used the command the fleet obliterated one ship after the other beginning with the contact at the top. Could have been luck though, but it would suck really hard in such an engagement.
 

Offline kilo

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Re: Twelve Colonies Comments Thread
« Reply #52 on: March 17, 2022, 09:14:46 AM »
Yeah beam fighters were not really successful against the massed AMM strike, they got lucky that the enemy targeted motherships that had sufficient armour belt to soak it.

Isn't that more of a problem with AMMs in general, not beam fighters specifically? There aren't very many effective point-defense counters to massed AMM strikes.

That said, since AMMs don't retarget, it seems like losses would be at most one ship per salvo. In response, one could try creating a "bait" fighter/FAC designed to deliberately draw AMM fire (perhaps piloted by convicted criminals or political prisoners).
Code: [Select]
Chaff class Scout (P)      50 tons       1 Crew       15.7 BP       TCS 1    TH 22    EM 0
22705 km/s      Armour 1-1       Shields 0-0       HTK 1      Sensors 0/0/0/0      DCR 0      PPV 0
Maint Life 0 Years     MSP 0    AFR 9%    IFR 0.1%    1YR 0    5YR 5    Max Repair 18 MSP
Lieutenant Commander    Control Rating 1   
Intended Deployment Time: 3 days    Morale Check Required   

Magneto-plasma Drive  EP22.40 (1)    Power 22.4    Fuel Use 1496.66%    Signature 22.40    Explosion 20%
Fuel Capacity 4,000 Litres    Range 0.98 billion km (11 hours at full power)

Active Search Sensor AS31-R500 (1)     GPS 1050     Range 31.8m km    Resolution 500

This design is classed as a Fighter for production, combat and planetary interaction
This design is classed as a a for auto-assignment purposes

That strategy is inhumane and funny at the same time. I bet they can outrun equal tech level ASMs and AMMs have a hard time hitting these bastards. How much chaff and crew is "consumed" against a precursor AMM base at average?
 

Offline nuclearslurpee

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Re: Twelve Colonies Comments Thread
« Reply #53 on: March 17, 2022, 09:55:04 AM »
My main concern has always been a fighter force being picked off by AMM fire before it even gets a chance to get into range.

It is worth noting that Steve said he forgot to set up several of the Battlestar BFCs so the point defense was much less than needed. Given the size of the Cerberus fleet and the fact that defensive stations have much greater proportional throw mass than regular (i.e., self-propelled) ships I think the AMM threat here is somewhat overstated. We must also consider the tech level difference between the Colonial Fleet (NGC/ion drives) and Cerberus (MP drives). If the Colonial Fleet were to magically have 25% higher ship speeds and tracking speeds (i.e., just +1 tech level), the situation would look much rosier I suspect.

Pretty much every time this has come up in beam fighter discussions I have done analysis of railgun fighters vs AMMs which shows that the fighters can, if properly designed, deal with AMM spam pretty reasonably - the fighters can defend against AMM spam from roughly equal tonnage of NPR missile escort ships, and the fact that fighters require a carrier is roughly balanced out on a tonnage basis by the fact that NPR fleets are never solely composed of AMM escorts. It is not the most exciting play pattern, but you can fairly reliably weather the AMM storm and then close for beam combat as shown in this and I believe other AARs.

The "problem" of AMM spam is really only such when considering a multiple player race scenario where one player race attempts to cheese the game with a pure AMM-spam fleet, in which case it is probably true that fighters (or indeed most other kinds of ships) will be insufficient at the tactical level (although strategically, the cost of AMM spam is quite prohibitive and a beam weapon fleet may suffer high initial losses and then push back if the enemy runs out of AMMs before destroying the entire fleet). However in this case I would argue that cheese is met with cheese, as the player you decide how silly you want things to be as Aurora has (almost) never been balanced around closing exploits if the player would like to use them.

I will concede that when facing a missile opponent, pretty much only railgun fighters will be viable at most practical tech levels, even Gauss fighters are strictly inferior below basically MaxTech level, and laser fighters, etc. are certainly right out to say nothing of the folly of using plasma or meson fighters. That being said not everything should be equally viable in Aurora, and these other fighter weapons can have a place in other situations (except Gauss fighters, never use these except for roleplay purposes, please, I am begging you).
« Last Edit: March 17, 2022, 09:57:03 AM by nuclearslurpee »
 
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Offline Migi

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Re: Twelve Colonies Comments Thread
« Reply #54 on: March 18, 2022, 02:00:35 PM »
Technical question: Is the galactic map one screenshot or is it several images stitched together?
Related: How often do you forget where systems are?

Potential bug: The wrecks left by the Vipers are shown as 250T on the map, but the design is supposed to be 300T.

Quote
Mars
Population: 12.4m
Installations: 313x Automated Mine, 138x Mine.

Duranium:   723,777   0.80
Tritanium:   1,037,236   0.10
Vendarite:   5,661,236   0.10
Sorium:   2,134,280   0.10
Gallicite:   1,015,089   0.80
I don't think I've ever had a game where Mars possesses minerals at a useful accessibility. In my current game I have 4 minerals at accessibility 0.1, and in my previous game I think there was Sorium at 0.1 accessibility. At least when it's completely empty it doesn't feel like it's taunting me. :P

I'd do some analysis of the missiles but I've got a headache.
 

Offline nuclearslurpee

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Re: Twelve Colonies Comments Thread
« Reply #55 on: March 18, 2022, 02:15:36 PM »
Potential bug: The wrecks left by the Vipers are shown as 250T on the map, but the design is supposed to be 300T.

This always happens, wreck sizes seem to be shown by taking the size of the class in HS and rounding down to the nearest integer, and even though a ship size may display as 300 tons it is actually something like 5.996 HS which rounds down to 5 HS, or 250 tons.

This also happens in a couple of other places in the game interface, nowhere too upsetting though.


Quote
I don't think I've ever had a game where Mars possesses minerals at a useful accessibility. In my current game I have 4 minerals at accessibility 0.1, and in my previous game I think there was Sorium at 0.1 accessibility. At least when it's completely empty it doesn't feel like it's taunting me. :P

I've seen 0.7 or 0.8 accessibility duranium deposits once or twice, but it's usually pretty rare.
 
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Offline nuclearslurpee

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Re: Twelve Colonies Comments Thread
« Reply #56 on: March 19, 2022, 08:56:58 AM »
From the changes thread:
Quote
(you might guess there is a ground invasion happening in my current campaign) :)

 :o :o :o ;D ;D ;D

Steve actually invading a NPR home world in C#? Can it be?? I can't wait!
 

Offline Steve Walmsley (OP)

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Re: Twelve Colonies Comments Thread
« Reply #57 on: March 19, 2022, 09:36:00 AM »
Potential bug: The wrecks left by the Vipers are shown as 250T on the map, but the design is supposed to be 300T.
This always happens, wreck sizes seem to be shown by taking the size of the class in HS and rounding down to the nearest integer, and even though a ship size may display as 300 tons it is actually something like 5.996 HS which rounds down to 5 HS, or 250 tons.

Its not a bug as such, because the code is written that way. It was a holdover from earlier versions. However, I have changed v2.0 so that wrecks are rounded to the nearest ton, rather than rounded down to the nearest HS.
 
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Offline Steve Walmsley (OP)

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Re: Twelve Colonies Comments Thread
« Reply #58 on: March 19, 2022, 09:38:09 AM »
From the changes thread:
Quote
(you might guess there is a ground invasion happening in my current campaign) :)

 :o :o :o ;D ;D ;D

Steve actually invading a NPR home world in C#? Can it be?? I can't wait!

Definitely not with the available forces I have, but it is an interesting situation that I will cover in the next campaign update.

Your house rule I added to v2.0 (limited research admin) is causing all sorts of interesting dynamics in this campaign, and one of them is limited ground tech. I don't even have heavy vehicles yet.
 
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Offline Bremen

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Re: Twelve Colonies Comments Thread
« Reply #59 on: March 24, 2022, 06:42:12 PM »
This is turning out to be quite the campaign - my games have a tendency to stall out with few if any threats encountered, but the Twelve Colonies seem to be beset on all sides. It almost feels like it would be more fitting for a WH40k game :P
 
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