v2.6.0 Changes Discussion Thread

[Kiero]

...
And so on. This would make infrastructure more necessary as terraforming alone will create fewer ideal worlds (e.g., not Mars) and make species gravity more interesting, since different species might have different ideal world types and be more willing to share space (bonus if the AI can be taught to share systems with other races, especially if the different races colonize different bodies).

I agree with @nuclearslurpee. However, I think it would be necessary to look at diplomacy in relation to this.
So we could work on signing a concrete treaty with other empires. Not just drop a DIP ship in their territory and hope for the best.

And on the topic of diplomacy:
Don't let it be vague.

I was thinking on a system where we could "work" on a specific treaty. Assign a diplomat to it.
So that there will be a need to collect enough diplomatic points to be able to attempt to sign such a treaty, with a certain % chance.
It would be possible to extend the “work” on a given treaty thus increasing the chance of signing it.

Exp.
Mining rights for a specific body in another empire territory.
If it could be signed, the other side would ignore civilian ships in a particular system, and colony on a particular body.
Or with addition of a specific tonage of a millitary ships/troops in that system.

I know that it is a huge task... 

[Steve Walmsley (OP)]

The LG change was to allow civilians to better contribute to LG worlds and make the AI better at building up LG worlds. It is already produced by colonies like standard infrastructure but, as mentioned above, on a much smaller scale since you don't start with a large LG colony.

I do like the idea of a narrower standard gravity range and applying a gradual colony cost for gravity, rather than the x2 past a specific point. That would also work for higher gravity worlds, that are currently not habitable at all.

[paolot]

I think gravity has an on/off effect.
In real life, low gravity causes big troubles to bones and muscles. So, in terms of colonizations, it should be avoided (by a not genetically modified population).
On the other hand, we know the problems of airplanes pilots at high-g values. So, it should be avoided too.
Outside the gravity tolerance window, no colonization should be possible (again, for a not genetically modified population). While, within this window, some gradual difficulty (and cost) can be foresee, to apply to infrastructure (for example, to dig caves for LG, or be more resistant for HG).
In science fiction terms, in alternative or in parallel to genetics, we could eventually imagine an inertia/gravity generator or suppressor, more expensive (in research and cost) than infrastructures, to colonize LG or HG bodies (the generator is implicitly already present in the game, in the ships engaged in long time duties, to preserve crews from LG effects).

[Aloriel]

...
In science fiction terms, in alternative or in parallel to genetics, we could eventually imagine an inertia/gravity generator or suppressor, more expensive (in research and cost) than infrastructures, to colonize LG or HG bodies (the generator is implicitly already present in the game, in the ships engaged in long time duties, to preserve crews from LG effects).

I think the lore is that trans-Newtonian tech works in gravity, but not quite as well, with diminishing returns for even higher gravity. So while we can compensate for low G, we can't compensate for high G. As such, the ability to mitigate LG with twice as much regular infra makes sense. It takes more effort because we have to use gravity generators, which take more power, etc.

[skoormit]

The LG change was to allow civilians to better contribute to LG worlds and make the AI better at building up LG worlds.

I guess I don't understand.

Civvies already contribute to LG worlds just like normal worlds.
When space is available for colonists, they will move them there.
They are constrained by availability of infrastructure, just like they are with any other trade good.
You can always build your own LGI and give the civvies contracts to move it. They treat it the same as any other contract.

It's just that regular infra is available as a trade good in large numbers from the very start of  the game, and is demanded immediately, and more or less inexhaustibly, by all of your colonies (until you tell them to stop or they reach their population capacity).
The fact that LG colonies can't benefit from that source of free infra is a feature, not a flaw.
The gradual creation of a large LG colony is a worthwhile long-term megaproject, on par with de-centralizing production or turning Luna into a galactic banking center or turning Mars into your primary ground force training colony.

If LG colonies merely need twice as much regular infra, instead of their own kind of infra, then LG colonies start to seem barely different from regular colonies at all.

[Ultimoos]

Removal of LG infra was supposed to help NPR's to colonize LG worlds. It's a negligible change from players POV, but colossal help to NPR's. I for one welcome this change.

[Ghostly]

It's just that regular infra is available as a trade good in large numbers from the very start of  the game, and is demanded immediately, and more or less inexhaustibly, by all of your colonies (until you tell them to stop or they reach their population capacity).
The fact that LG colonies can't benefit from that source of free infra is a feature, not a flaw.

It absolutely is on the player's part, but it is my understanding that the AI is simply incapable of using its construction factories to manufacture infrastructure for its LG colonies (it seems to struggle with industrial projects in general, at least from what my recent checkups of the respective DB table tells me, perhaps it gets its new installations from elsewhere?). In this case, this change would be mainly aimed at making things easier for the AI, which I would wholeheartedly support, but not at the expense of robbing the LG colonies of their uniqueness.

Perhaps the solution is to allow NPR civilian industry to manufacture small amounts of LG infrastructure on non-LG worlds in addition to their normal output? This would allow the NPRs to grow their colonies while retaining interesting choices for the player. If the goal is to keep things "fair", this could be extended to player civilians, as a game option, although I don't see this being necessary. I guess there's a danger of the AI getting confused by two types of civilian infrastructure of one world, but surely that won't present a significant problem, the AI seems to handle proper installation and trade goods assignment well enough already.

In either case, anything that helps NPRs get better at growing new colonies is welcome, they're severely lacking in that department as of now, but such changes should not diminish the player experience if at all possible.

[Louella]

I'm not sure if this is a bug, or not. But since civilian shipping lines are being reworked for 2.6, I felt I should probably mention it here, rather than in the bugreport thread.

My current game, there are some NPRs that have given trade access, and I also have trade access to them, but I can't purchase fuel from their civilian harvesters.
I've not yet seen any naval harvesters, so am unable to check if I can purchase fuel from them either.

I can get fuel from my own civilian harvesters, though it does not generate a distinct entry in the wealth screen, so I am unsure if I have expended any wealth at all, or if it is rolled into the "purchase of civilian minerals" entry for wealth.

So, if you have mutual trade access with a NPR, will you be able to buy fuel from the NPR fuel harvesters, and will it cost wealth that will be separately marked on the wealth screen ?

[Ghostly]

Crew Quarter Design Efficiency

I've added a new tech line called Crew Quarters Design. Researching this tech reduces the amount of space required for crew quarters, by improving the efficiency of the design, so the crew can spend months travelling in relatively small space without feeling cramped. After spending 11 of the last 14 months travelling with my wife in a 25' motorhome, this is a technology I can relate to

The levels are similar to fuel efficiency tech and start at 90% for 1000 RP, down to 25% for 120,000 RP. This is a Logistics technology.

Rather curious change, how will the numbers compare to the current system? Will the current baseline be set as 100% efficiency? Because utilizing a quarter of that volume at high tech seems rather low.

I definitely recall seeing suggestions for denser crew quarters on this forum, but I'm rather surprised you chose to approach it this way. If simply setting a lower deployment time is deemed insufficient, research options could provide a way to reduce crew quarter space at the expense of maximum morale or reaction speed, simply dumping RP to dispel your crews' notion of personal space feels rather weird

[Andrew]

It is also possible to consider 20% of the current hull volume for crew at high tech to be high, after all my crew are downloaded personalities running on the ships computers with a few drone bodies for when needed. As always it is something you can use or not use as it fits your view on the universe of your game

[Ghostly]

It is also possible to consider 20% of the current hull volume for crew at high tech to be high, after all my crew are downloaded personalities running on the ships computers with a few drone bodies for when needed. As always it is something you can use or not use as it fits your view on the universe of your game

Brain-emulated crewmen and officers are a can of worms that I prefer not to touch in my headcanon, since despite providing justification for being able to reassign officers from half a galaxy away, it conflicts with officer and crew casualties being a thing, unless it's somehow impossible to create backups of an uploaded mind. Boarding such ships would need to be viewed differently as well. Not saying you can't still roleplay things that way, but in a vacuum, progressively more compact living spaces seem like an odd tech to have, especially if decoupled from the population density mechanic.

[Kaiser]

I've added a new tech line called Crew Quarters Design. Researching this tech reduces the amount of space required for crew quarters, by improving the efficiency of the design, so the crew can spend months travelling in relatively small space without feeling cramped. After spending 11 of the last 14 months travelling with my wife in a 25' motorhome, this is a technology I can relate to

The levels are similar to fuel efficiency tech and start at 90% for 1000 RP, down to 25% for 120,000 RP. This is a Logistics technology.

At a cost of souding like a pain in the ass, does the last sentence mean you finally back home with access to your stable pc and can finally think about releasing this baby?
I bought a telescope last week and finally tried it yesterday evening, watching the moon, I thought about Aurora  :'(

[Steve Walmsley (OP)]

Crew Quarter Design Efficiency

I've added a new tech line called Crew Quarters Design. Researching this tech reduces the amount of space required for crew quarters, by improving the efficiency of the design, so the crew can spend months travelling in relatively small space without feeling cramped. After spending 11 of the last 14 months travelling with my wife in a 25' motorhome, this is a technology I can relate to

The levels are similar to fuel efficiency tech and start at 90% for 1000 RP, down to 25% for 120,000 RP. This is a Logistics technology.

Rather curious change, how will the numbers compare to the current system? Will the current baseline be set as 100% efficiency? Because utilizing a quarter of that volume at high tech seems rather low.

I definitely recall seeing suggestions for denser crew quarters on this forum, but I'm rather surprised you chose to approach it this way. If simply setting a lower deployment time is deemed insufficient, research options could provide a way to reduce crew quarter space at the expense of maximum morale or reaction speed, simply dumping RP to dispel your crews' notion of personal space feels rather weird

Yes, the current baseline will be 100%. The change is intended to allow longer deployment times without prohibitive space requirements. It won't make a lot of difference for ships with low deployment times, as their crew requirements are a much smaller percentage of total hull space anyway.

More efficient use of space is a real concept, not simply a way to 'dump RP to reduce personal space'. Last year two of us lived in about a 20'x7' space for nine months. That space includes a king-sized bed, a shower, a cubicle with toilet and sink, an oven, a three-ring hob, kitchen sink, fridge-freezer, two small couches, a dining table, two seats (driver/passenger), several overhead compartments, plus other storage. It also has 12v and 240v electric systems, plumbing for the two sinks and shower, gas for the over/hob and fridge, central heating, etc.

Yet it always seems like we have plenty of space. That is great design within a limited space - especially as we have been used to living in houses with 5+ bedrooms and multiple, large reception rooms. In fact, we have changed our perspective so much as a result of our time travelling, we are looking for a smaller house, as the previous ones now seem to have a lot of wasted space.

So to the original point, this is a game mechanics change to allow longer duration deployments, particularly for larger ships where the required crew space can be hard to justify vs other systems. Given my own recent experience with how good design can change your perception of space, it seemed like a reasonable way to implement it.

Just for interest, here is the motorhome (and yes, its French ).
https://www.rapido-motorhome.co.uk/motorhome_a-class_serie-80df_8096df.chtml

[Steve Walmsley (OP)]

I've added a new tech line called Crew Quarters Design. Researching this tech reduces the amount of space required for crew quarters, by improving the efficiency of the design, so the crew can spend months travelling in relatively small space without feeling cramped. After spending 11 of the last 14 months travelling with my wife in a 25' motorhome, this is a technology I can relate to

The levels are similar to fuel efficiency tech and start at 90% for 1000 RP, down to 25% for 120,000 RP. This is a Logistics technology.

At a cost of souding like a pain in the ass, does the last sentence mean you finally back home with access to your stable pc and can finally think about releasing this baby?
I bought a telescope last week and finally tried it yesterday evening, watching the moon, I thought about Aurora  :'(

No, we are in the motorhome until mid-July, but have sorted a house for at least 12 months after that point.

[Hazard]

I have no idea how to read that new table with the summaries.