Infrastracture, orbital habitats and overcrowding

[Haji (OP)]

I've been playing for some time now, experimanting with diffrent builds and I noticed that if your population fills all avaiable infrastracture it will start to accumulate unrest due to overcrowding - but that's not the case with orbital habitats. I mean, aren't they the same? Artificial living spaces, one deployed in space other on the planet? If so, shouldn't the overcrowding problem be true for both of them?

And now that the primary question is out of the way it's time for some random thoughts.

Speaking of overcrowding. In many other games this is applied to any planet, including the starting one. Is there any particular reason it's not implemented here? I mean, having overcrowding problems on your homeworld would greatly add urgency to colonisation. To be honest in some cases - mostly when I have all or most of the resources I need in the starting system - I have problems finding reasons to expand others than "just becouse". This can also be of great value to newtonian aurora. I've been reading a little about island hopping vs deep strikes and some people there noted, that there may be no good reason to venture outside your own system. That in fact this would create vulnerability. But if you had overcrowding problems on your home planet then - coupled with other ideas prestented there like resource scarcity or privately founded colonies - it would force you to expend.

Of course if you start with 500m population on Earth then it will be a long time before you have overcrowding problems.

Now another thing: costs. Right now I feel like infrastracture and - especially - orbital habitats are so costly that those aren't really any alternative to terraforming. In fact, the ifrastracture thing is so costly - not only in mierals but also in transport required - that I prefer building terraforming ships just so I don't have to deal with that. And orbital habitats with manned mines are really no alternative to automated mining.

I guess it may be a concious design choice. To have those things expensive and left primarly for role playing purposes. But I think it would be nice to have some alternatives to terraformng.

[UnLimiTeD]

I am, obviously, in favor of such things.   
But I'd be pretty arbitrary without a proper surface simulation, and that, if ever, will probably come after proper surface combat.
Which is already as far back on the list as it gets.
Still, good point, especially about NA 

[Nathan_]

With Infrastructure and terraforming installations you can get started terraforming mars MUCH faster than with terraforming ships, especially on a conventional start. And unless you are going to build habitat terraformers ships carry their own costs as well(building terraforming ships rather than colonies/freighters/etc).

As for overcrowding, population growth on the orbital stops entirely, which makes sense considering that a failure won't screw over just a few people, but potentially everyone on the habitat. Likewise I'd imagine that planetary growth rates would slow down before they hit the limits of what a TNE economy could support.

[Haji (OP)]

But that's kind the point: why would I want to colonise/terraform Mars? The only reason is: if there are resources there, enough to justify making a colony there. That however happens (in my case, maybe I've been unlucky) in one game out of three. Unless I use SM mode that is.

Plus, for the pre-terraformation colony to be of worthwile size, you need thousands if not tens of thousands points of infrastracture. And if you want to have both mines and terraforming facilities you'll need at least that much. That means a lot of industry being used and a lot of freight. Not counting terraformers that is. On the other hand terraforming ships are a very good investment, becouse they can make planet habitable before you establish any colony there. So no need to send infrastracture. Also, terraforming ships are much less micromanagy.

I guess that if you're playing a game where Mars is a very good mining outpost, then yes, definitely infrastracture is the best way to go about it. But after Mars terraforming ships are just too good. Just my opinion thou.

As for overcrowding, I'm not sure what the way population stops or doesn't have to do with it. I mean, the reason they are unhappy is becouse the place is overcrowded, ie, they can't have children becouse the life support won't handle it. In which case it doesn't matter whether the growth stops or not - they are still feeling overcrowded.

[Nathan_]

But that's kind the point: why would I want to colonise/terraform Mars?

Colonizing Mars generates wealth/trade and additional population to run research labs. I'll also colonize mercury later for the same reason, but that one you can't do with just infrastructure/installations. More wealth also has the side benefit of increasing the chances of civilian mining operations popping up.

Plus, for the pre-terraformation colony to be of worthwile size, you need thousands if not tens of thousands points of infrastracture.

Trade generally keeps the colony supplied with its infrastructure needs after you put down an initial seed amount, so you don't need to worry about it.

On the other hand terraforming ships are a very good investment

They are, but I tend to prefer habitat terraformers over even terraforming ships, the interface slows down with groups of 100+ ships. This isn't an issue for installations either.

As for overcrowding, I'm not sure what the way population stops or doesn't have to do with it. I mean, the reason they are unhappy is becouse the place is overcrowded, ie, they can't have children becouse the life support won't handle it. In which case it doesn't matter whether the growth stops or not - they are still feeling overcrowded.

Population shrinks because people are dieing due to overcrowding, which is also what they are unhappy about(being packed in like sardines is fine to them, atleast in the short term).
 

[Havear]

My own strategy for managing overcrowding involves supplying them with exploding radiation warheads...

[Person012345]

I'd guess it's because future tech means we can fit far more people on earth and other habitable planets at minimum cost. I mean, even now earth isn't at a space premium. Our problems right now are things like pollution and a lack of resources. If those weren't a concern we could physically fit many billions more on the planet than we have now, even with our conventional cities. Add in future tech, and any population size you're likely to have in aurora is unlikely to be a problem physically. Now, on a planet with an unbreathable atmosphere, that is 100 degrees and you have to be physically sheltered from the environment, you are going to need infrastructure to keep people safe and if there are too many people for the confined space...

Also, you realise you can just simulate this yourself? If you must have it, decide to RP that you become overcrowded at X population and you make your own motivation to expand. Not everyone wants to be humans, btw. A mechanic like this would just cause arguments about how high is too high, and would screw with you when you're playing a hivemind race that might need far less space.

[Marthnn]

But that's kind the point: why would I want to colonise/terraform Mars? The only reason is: if there are resources there, enough to justify making a colony there. That however happens (in my case, maybe I've been unlucky) in one game out of three.

Minerals are an incentive to colonise. Mines are easier to come by than automines.

Economy is another incentive to colonise. With 2 colonies, chances are their exports and imports won't be very compatible. Trade becomes more efficient when your colonies are numerous and close together.

Finally, the part I prefer : Growth. The bigger the colony, the worse the population growth. If, instead of starting with Earth populated by 500m people, you had 5 ideal worlds with 100m people each, you'd get a bigger growth, so your manufacturing sector grows faster, and your wealth income too. This can be somewhat offset by one good governor with +pop growth, but said civilian administrator will one day die or retire.

Mars is so easy to terraform up to ideal, I don't see any reason not to. It's just extra growth and trade!

Another point, colonising a world that can't be terraformed to ideal has an advantage of free income! The infrastructures needed to keep up with its natural growth can be obtained by trade goods, which gives you money and isn't subject to import/export compatibilities (all population gives infrastructure trade goods).

[Haji (OP)]

I usually terraform Mars for more population. However to be honest, on the "wealth tab" the income from trade is usually so small I don't really remember ever caring about it. Mybe I've just been doing something wrong. But becouse of this the only reason I colonise planets are to get bigger population and to mine minerals. And that means, that if there are no minerals, then I can safely wait for terraforming ships to start my work on Mars.

[Person012345]

I usually terraform Mars for more population. However to be honest, on the "wealth tab" the income from trade is usually so small I don't really remember ever caring about it. Mybe I've just been doing something wrong. But becouse of this the only reason I colonise planets are to get bigger population and to mine minerals. And that means, that if there are no minerals, then I can safely wait for terraforming ships to start my work on Mars.

I would usually make my first off world colony to give the civilian sector a push. It's not the wealth you're necessarily looking at, it's the boon of having potentially hundreds of free freighters to haul your smeg around.

[Nathan_]

I usually terraform Mars for more population. However to be honest, on the "wealth tab" the income from trade is usually so small I don't really remember ever caring about it. Mybe I've just been doing something wrong. But becouse of this the only reason I colonise planets are to get bigger population and to mine minerals. And that means, that if there are no minerals, then I can safely wait for terraforming ships to start my work on Mars.

The civs operate on an 8 hour time interval, so if you advance the game by 30 days they will only do one trade run in that time. Mars itself will generate way more wealth then trade will in all likelyhood though. I wonder if the civ model could be changed to have civilian ships plan out every run they are going to make in the next 6 months, and whether that would help.

[Steve Walmsley]

I usually terraform Mars for more population. However to be honest, on the "wealth tab" the income from trade is usually so small I don't really remember ever caring about it.

Here is a screenshot from the Eridani Republic in my current campaign. This is the previous year's wealth generation after 18 years of game time. 24.8% of wealth is from shipping lines and 12.4% is from civilian mines.



Steve

[Erik L]

The civs operate on an 8 hour time interval, so if you advance the game by 30 days they will only do one trade run in that time. Mars itself will generate way more wealth then trade will in all likelyhood though. I wonder if the civ model could be changed to have civilian ships plan out every run they are going to make in the next 6 months, and whether that would help.

Why 6 months? Longest interval is 30 days. Just need to plan out 30 days.

[Nathan_]

just thinking in universe rp terms such as freighters being booked for such and such a time.

[Steve Walmsley]

just thinking in universe rp terms such as freighters being booked for such and such a time.

There is so much that can happen in 6 months, or even 30 days, that it wouldn't really be practical to plan that far ahead. At the moment, each freighter/colony ship takes into account the planned moves of every other freighter/colony ship before deciding what to do. That isn't too bad for a single trip but it would get tricky for 6 month's worth of trips. If one freighter booked up 6 months worth of moves that would prevent other freighters picking up goods that the first freighter is planning to pick up in a few months. You might end up with some freighters not doing anything. I suppose that each time a freighter had nothing to do I could look at rescheduling other freighters to allow that freighter to do something but you can see how intensive that could get.

Steve