Author Topic: Mines and Minefields  (Read 2488 times)

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Offline liveware (OP)

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Mines and Minefields
« on: May 14, 2020, 11:00:46 PM »
I'm interested in trying to set up some mine fields and I have some questions about how this might be achieved.

1. What is a good way to spread mines around? Waypoints?

2. I assume mines are basically engine-less missiles. Do mines need engines? If no, what is their effective range?

3. Do NPRs use squadron transits? If they do, it would seem a challenge to spread mines around a jump point and hit anything reliably. Is there a better way to do this than just randomly spreading mines around the jump point?

4. Are sensors required?
« Last Edit: May 14, 2020, 11:10:40 PM by liveware »
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Offline consiefe

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Re: Mines and Minefields
« Reply #1 on: May 15, 2020, 04:51:39 AM »
1. Yes.

2. Mines need engines to work though very little in Aurora, because they have to go to the target which has just entered the range of mines active sensor range.

3. Again mines already need to make it to the enemy anyway. Just put enough range for actives and support it with engines.

4. Yea :)
 

Offline Mark Yanning

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Re: Mines and Minefields
« Reply #2 on: May 15, 2020, 07:47:23 AM »
Do you design mines in two stage missile? Also: how to deploy them? With command "Launch ready ordnance"? Do they remain visible on map?

Thanks
« Last Edit: May 15, 2020, 07:55:19 AM by Mark Yanning »
 

Offline consiefe

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Re: Mines and Minefields
« Reply #3 on: May 15, 2020, 11:46:26 AM »
Yes mines should be two staged. First should not have engines or warheads, just active sensors. Second stage should have engines, fuel, warhead, also active sensors. If you have one FC active with one launcher on one ship and command that ship to any point saying "launch ready ordinance" it will deploy one mine on that point.

Edit: And yes, they remain visible on map.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2020, 12:15:20 PM by consiefe »
 
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Offline liveware (OP)

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Re: Mines and Minefields
« Reply #4 on: May 15, 2020, 04:09:26 PM »
Many thanks for all your responses, my empire may survive another few years.

As a follow up question regarding mine sensors, do passive sensors allow for adequate targeting or are active sensors a hard requirement? The two stage concept, with a sensor on the first stage and engine+warhead on the second seems interesting and is probably what I will attempt first.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2020, 04:11:00 PM by liveware »
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Online DFNewb

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Re: Mines and Minefields
« Reply #5 on: May 15, 2020, 04:11:34 PM »
Yes mines should be two staged. First should not have engines or warheads, just active sensors. Second stage should have engines, fuel, warhead, also active sensors. If you have one FC active with one launcher on one ship and command that ship to any point saying "launch ready ordinance" it will deploy one mine on that point.

Edit: And yes, they remain visible on map.

I'm confused you just said:

2. Mines need engines to work though very little in Aurora, because they have to go to the target which has just entered the range of mines active sensor range.

So do you need engines on them or not?
 

Offline liveware (OP)

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Re: Mines and Minefields
« Reply #6 on: May 15, 2020, 04:28:27 PM »
Another follow up question:

For two stage missiles, what is the appropriate launcher size? For example, if I have a size 1 first stage coupled to a size 1 second stage do I launch it from a size 1 missile launcher? That seems intuitively correct to me but intuition is a fickle beast.
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Offline froggiest1982

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Re: Mines and Minefields
« Reply #7 on: May 15, 2020, 04:31:02 PM »
Yes mines should be two staged. First should not have engines or warheads, just active sensors. Second stage should have engines, fuel, warhead, also active sensors. If you have one FC active with one launcher on one ship and command that ship to any point saying "launch ready ordinance" it will deploy one mine on that point.

Edit: And yes, they remain visible on map.

I'm confused you just said:

2. Mines need engines to work though very little in Aurora, because they have to go to the target which has just entered the range of mines active sensor range.

So do you need engines on them or not?

the first stage is a dummy to keep the missile stationary and then work as a mine. I think the whole mine concept is a bit misleading. This is an idle missile that once a  hostile ship is in range and gets detected by such missile it releases the first stage launching a missile to the target. In Aurora we call these mines.
Steve didnt even code mines, some people twisted the 2 stage concept and gave birth mines which are good first line of defense but they have many downsides in VB6 one of wich the hundreds of sensor detection phases. I can see now in C# this not being an issue anymore so I may use some myself.
The other is the potential also of wasting many of them or overkill because as soon as a ship is in range the "mines" will activate all together.

Personally I think best way is big mines capable of more damage layed in straight course from JPs in several distance from one another in groups so that you won't waste all your defense on a scout or geological vessel.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2020, 09:30:47 PM by froggiest1982 »
 
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Re: Mines and Minefields
« Reply #8 on: May 15, 2020, 04:59:42 PM »
Yes mines should be two staged. First should not have engines or warheads, just active sensors. Second stage should have engines, fuel, warhead, also active sensors. If you have one FC active with one launcher on one ship and command that ship to any point saying "launch ready ordinance" it will deploy one mine on that point.

Edit: And yes, they remain visible on map.

I'm confused you just said:

2. Mines need engines to work though very little in Aurora, because they have to go to the target which has just entered the range of mines active sensor range.

So do you need engines on them or not?

the first stage is a dummy to keep the missile stationary Nd then work as a mine. I think the whole mine concept as I bit misleading. This is an idle missile that once a  hostile ship is in range and gets detected by such missile it releases the first stage launching a missile to the target. In Aurora we call these mines.
Steve didnt even code mines, some people twisted the 2 stage concept and gave birth mines which are good first line of defense but they have many downsides in VB6 one of wich the hundreds of sensor detection phases. I can see now in C# this not being an issue anymore so I may use some myself.
The other is the potential also of wasting many of them or overkill as as soon as a ship is in range the "mines" will activate all together.

Personally I think best way is big mines capable of more damage layed in straight course from JPs in several distance from one another in groups so that you won't waste all your defense on a scout or geological vessel.

Or when the enemy ships are chasing you to get into missile range you drop them while running away
 

Offline froggiest1982

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Re: Mines and Minefields
« Reply #9 on: May 15, 2020, 09:28:34 PM »
Yes mines should be two staged. First should not have engines or warheads, just active sensors. Second stage should have engines, fuel, warhead, also active sensors. If you have one FC active with one launcher on one ship and command that ship to any point saying "launch ready ordinance" it will deploy one mine on that point.

Edit: And yes, they remain visible on map.

I'm confused you just said:

2. Mines need engines to work though very little in Aurora, because they have to go to the target which has just entered the range of mines active sensor range.

So do you need engines on them or not?

the first stage is a dummy to keep the missile stationary Nd then work as a mine. I think the whole mine concept as I bit misleading. This is an idle missile that once a  hostile ship is in range and gets detected by such missile it releases the first stage launching a missile to the target. In Aurora we call these mines.
Steve didnt even code mines, some people twisted the 2 stage concept and gave birth mines which are good first line of defense but they have many downsides in VB6 one of wich the hundreds of sensor detection phases. I can see now in C# this not being an issue anymore so I may use some myself.
The other is the potential also of wasting many of them or overkill as as soon as a ship is in range the "mines" will activate all together.

Personally I think best way is big mines capable of more damage layed in straight course from JPs in several distance from one another in groups so that you won't waste all your defense on a scout or geological vessel.

Or when the enemy ships are chasing you to get into missile range you drop them while running away

Yes, true.

Offline consiefe

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Re: Mines and Minefields
« Reply #10 on: May 15, 2020, 10:00:07 PM »
Yes mines should be two staged. First should not have engines or warheads, just active sensors. Second stage should have engines, fuel, warhead, also active sensors. If you have one FC active with one launcher on one ship and command that ship to any point saying "launch ready ordinance" it will deploy one mine on that point.

Edit: And yes, they remain visible on map.

I'm confused you just said:

2. Mines need engines to work though very little in Aurora, because they have to go to the target which has just entered the range of mines active sensor range.

So do you need engines on them or not?

For mines yes, you need engines and fuel on the second  stage. Aftet first one triggers with an active sensor contact with enemy you want to hit cluster missiles with individual actives, engines and fuel will go for the enemy.
Another follow up question:

For two stage missiles, what is the appropriate launcher size? For example, if I have a size 1 first stage coupled to a size 1 second stage do I launch it from a size 1 missile launcher? That seems intuitively correct to me but intuition is a fickle beast.

This is like a cluster bomb concept. You can try to fit as many second stage as you want to the first stage. First stage will be stationary so just actives matter. Aftet the first stage triggered the missiles inside of your first stage cut loose so they decide what to hit with actives. They go to enemy like any other missile you launched after this.

Edit: Launcher size is the total size of the missile. If you put 3x 1MSP Missile into the first stage, and if first stage is 1MSP too, total size would be 4 so launcher should be min size4 to deploy this.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2020, 10:31:44 AM by consiefe »
 

Offline consiefe

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Re: Mines and Minefields
« Reply #11 on: May 16, 2020, 10:37:55 AM »
Many thanks for all your responses, my empire may survive another few years.

As a follow up question regarding mine sensors, do passive sensors allow for adequate targeting or are active sensors a hard requirement? The two stage concept, with a sensor on the first stage and engine+warhead on the second seems interesting and is probably what I will attempt first.

Actives are hard requirement because without them mine can not target or re-target anything. You should also keep in mind that you need to have actives on the second stage too. First stage's active will pick up the enemy signal and break apart to let the second stage out and then second stage missiles will use actives to go to the enemy.
 

Offline SpikeTheHobbitMage

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Re: Mines and Minefields
« Reply #12 on: May 16, 2020, 11:43:17 AM »
Many thanks for all your responses, my empire may survive another few years.

As a follow up question regarding mine sensors, do passive sensors allow for adequate targeting or are active sensors a hard requirement? The two stage concept, with a sensor on the first stage and engine+warhead on the second seems interesting and is probably what I will attempt first.

Actives are hard requirement because without them mine can not target or re-target anything. You should also keep in mind that you need to have actives on the second stage too. First stage's active will pick up the enemy signal and break apart to let the second stage out and then second stage missiles will use actives to go to the enemy.
Are actives required on every mine, or can an active sensor buoy support a group of mines?
 

Offline liveware (OP)

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Re: Mines and Minefields
« Reply #13 on: May 16, 2020, 11:54:26 AM »
Suppose I were to put a small engine on my first stage. What would happen if I then launched this mine-missile at a waypoint? Would the second stage detach at the waypoint or would it sit there idle with whatever fuel remains in the first stage?
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Offline consiefe

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Re: Mines and Minefields
« Reply #14 on: May 16, 2020, 12:02:32 PM »
Many thanks for all your responses, my empire may survive another few years.

As a follow up question regarding mine sensors, do passive sensors allow for adequate targeting or are active sensors a hard requirement? The two stage concept, with a sensor on the first stage and engine+warhead on the second seems interesting and is probably what I will attempt first.

Actives are hard requirement because without them mine can not target or re-target anything. You should also keep in mind that you need to have actives on the second stage too. First stage's active will pick up the enemy signal and break apart to let the second stage out and then second stage missiles will use actives to go to the enemy.
Are actives required on every mine, or can an active sensor buoy support a group of mines?

Every mine needs it to pick a target. When you design one second stage with actives you will use that design as many as you want anyway.

Suppose I were to put a small engine on my first stage. What would happen if I then launched this mine-missile at a waypoint? Would the second stage detach at the waypoint or would it sit there idle with whatever fuel remains in the first stage?

If you set the separation to 0 I think it won't ever go to the second stage and if you set some kind of separation it separates before it hits the waypoint that you want it to sit on. So it seems to me engines in the first stage are not viable for mines as far as I know.

Edit: If you want to launch it from a distance, I think it would be a cluster bomb regular missile with second stage that pops close to the target.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2020, 12:08:47 PM by consiefe »
 
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