Author Topic: Boarding vs Shields  (Read 13715 times)

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Offline Droll

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Re: Boarding vs Shields
« Reply #15 on: October 31, 2021, 02:55:03 PM »
I like the idea that shields prevent boarding until they are reduced to some 10-15% of strength. It would also increase use of microwave weapons that could be used in support of the boarders to take down shields more quickly. And the Star Swarm already uses microwaves so they have access to tools that can help their boarders.

My understanding is that microwaves aren't nowhere near as good as you think, they do double damage but 1x2 is just 2. Railguns would be a much better alternative to grinding down shield HP.
 

Offline nuclearslurpee

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Re: Boarding vs Shields
« Reply #16 on: October 31, 2021, 02:56:34 PM »
The answer is obvious: the boarders land on the shield and use explosives to penetrate it just like they do the hull.

This is now canon
 

Offline Vandermeer

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Re: Boarding vs Shields
« Reply #17 on: October 31, 2021, 03:00:54 PM »
The 'low percent' approach would have weaknesses in logic and mechanic however. Firstly if there isn't an absolute shield-point number needed to shield a ship from boarding, why does the necessary shield strength rise with increasing technology?
Seeing that, you could design an anti-boarding shield that is very small, uses only alpha shields, but thus has high regeneration-% per interval.
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Offline somebody1212

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Re: Boarding vs Shields
« Reply #18 on: October 31, 2021, 04:27:47 PM »
Allowing shields to resist boarders means that boarders are no longer a viable option for dealing with heavily defended opponents who would be impossible to take out by other means.

Proposal: Have another design option for shields for whether you want to harden them against boarders or not. Shields which are not hardened against boarders function as they do currently, but shields which are hardened against boarders will cause damage to boarders during the boarding attempt based on their strength.
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Offline db48x

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Re: Boarding vs Shields
« Reply #19 on: October 31, 2021, 04:36:22 PM »
Allowing shields to resist boarders means that boarders are no longer a viable option for dealing with heavily defended opponents who would be impossible to take out by other means.

Proposal: Have another design option for shields for whether you want to harden them against boarders or not. Shields which are not hardened against boarders function as they do currently, but shields which are hardened against boarders will cause damage to boarders during the boarding attempt based on their strength.

I think that this is an advantage. If the shield is replenished faster than your marines can damage it, then the craft is immune to boarding (unless you can bring in some additional support). Otherwise there’s no defense against boarding at all.

I think that there should be a ground force component that lets them deal extra damage to shields, to go along with vacuum combat and so on, for when you really want to crack a tough shield and don’t mind paying extra.

I also like the idea of using microwave weapons to support boarding; the microwaves would presumably be safer for the boarding marines than missiles, railguns, etc.
 

Offline Iceranger

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Re: Boarding vs Shields
« Reply #20 on: October 31, 2021, 05:04:22 PM »
I think that this is an advantage. If the shield is replenished faster than your marines can damage it, then the craft is immune to boarding (unless you can bring in some additional support). Otherwise there’s no defense against boarding at all.

It really depends on what size of shields you are dealing with... Large shields can tank equivalent BP worth of single shot railgun's DPS (yes, the current OP version) for extended period of time. I doubt the marine weapons will do anything meaningful to such shields.
 

Offline db48x

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Re: Boarding vs Shields
« Reply #21 on: October 31, 2021, 05:47:39 PM »
I think that this is an advantage. If the shield is replenished faster than your marines can damage it, then the craft is immune to boarding (unless you can bring in some additional support). Otherwise there’s no defense against boarding at all.

It really depends on what size of shields you are dealing with... Large shields can tank equivalent BP worth of single shot railgun's DPS (yes, the current OP version) for extended period of time. I doubt the marine weapons will do anything meaningful to such shields.

They can get through the hull ok, that that can stand up to multiple nukes. But yes, the best shields should be quite strong. And recall that this discussion started with the idea that any shield would automatically prevent boarding.
 

Offline Iceranger

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Re: Boarding vs Shields
« Reply #22 on: October 31, 2021, 06:00:45 PM »
I think that this is an advantage. If the shield is replenished faster than your marines can damage it, then the craft is immune to boarding (unless you can bring in some additional support). Otherwise there’s no defense against boarding at all.

It really depends on what size of shields you are dealing with... Large shields can tank equivalent BP worth of single shot railgun's DPS (yes, the current OP version) for extended period of time. I doubt the marine weapons will do anything meaningful to such shields.

They can get through the hull ok, that that can stand up to multiple nukes. But yes, the best shields should be quite strong. And recall that this discussion started with the idea that any shield would automatically prevent boarding.
Indeed, that is true, totally forgot about the nuclear equivalent breach charges carried by the marines :D
I'm not sure what's the lore about how shield works in Aurora, so I'm not sure whether they stop boarding makes sense. But from my minmaxing perspective, I feel shield prevents boarding is probably another unnecessary buff to large ships. Perhaps a special variant of the shield that blocks/damages boarders while have some disadvantage such as being weaker or charges slower or costs more like Somebody suggested above works better.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2021, 09:13:44 PM by Iceranger »
 

Offline ArcWolf

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Re: Boarding vs Shields
« Reply #23 on: October 31, 2021, 07:24:03 PM »

Proposal: Have another design option for shields for whether you want to harden them against boarders or not. Shields which are not hardened against boarders function as they do currently, but shields which are hardened against boarders will cause damage to boarders during the boarding attempt based on their strength.

The problem is, without and drawback there would be no point in having an option between the two because everyone will always go with the shields that damage boarders.

The drawback would have to be significant enough to make the choice worthwhile.
 

Offline alex_brunius

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Re: Boarding vs Shields
« Reply #24 on: November 01, 2021, 02:30:22 AM »
Considering shields protect you against missiles it probably would make sense they protect against boarding too logically ( seeing how both are small and fast approaching maneuvering objects ).

I suspect the implementation would be a bit tricky though. For example if shields damage boarding vessels what happens if shields come online during a boarding attempt when the shuttle(s) are attached to the ship while the attacking marines are busy fighting inside?`

If some conditions where boarding is still possible for "very low percentage of maximum" strength the implementation becomes even more messy ( not to mention how a player is supposed to understand how it works ).

So the cleanest and easiest approach is probably to either have boarding ignore shields ( leave as is ) or require shields to be fully knocked out before a boarding attempt can be made and have any shield strength gained after boarding started do nothing vs the ship(s) already attached.
 

Offline kilo

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Re: Boarding vs Shields
« Reply #25 on: November 01, 2021, 06:29:49 AM »
I think it is completely sufficient the way it is right now. At the moment you need to be faster than the target to be able to board at all and 3 times as fast to board effectively. Meaning, the boarded ship will have suffered quite some battle damage before you can effectively land forces.
How often did you capture an intact ship at similar tech level? I always expected them to be of equivalent speed of your main forces, which makes boarding with your fat ships nearly impossible. Boarding shuttles on the other hand can use higher engine power modifiers, allowing them to reach the required speed, but are pretty vulnerable.
As a consequence of all that, I was only able to capture orbital platforms intact. Those precursor gauss space stations are extremely valuable by the way.


Addition:
When you land forces on a ships hull, there are several combat rounds during which these man blow up layer after layer of armor. Should marines defending the ship be able to engage in combat on the hull? If powered armor includes a vacuum suit they should technically be able to stop attacker before they enter. At the moment, the only thing you can do is wait.

 
« Last Edit: November 01, 2021, 06:38:19 AM by kilo »
 

Offline Andrew

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Re: Boarding vs Shields
« Reply #26 on: November 01, 2021, 06:50:37 AM »
We could assume a boarding capable troop bay has shield penetrating equipment included which is too large to fit on a missile, to avoid a discepancy between missile shield penetration and shuttle shield penetration
 
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Offline Foxxonius Augustus

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Re: Boarding vs Shields
« Reply #27 on: November 01, 2021, 07:27:57 AM »
I really don't like the idea of shields preventing boarding. As it is, boarding is a complex and hard to pull off maneuver and would only get harder if and when the AI gets better at ship design. Right now I feel like it nails the high risk, high reward nature of a boarding action but if shields could block it then it would increase the risk and complexity without adding any novel gameplay. Add to this that in every major sci-fi world I have ever seen, energy shields only prevent boarding via teleportation and explicitly not from boarding craft/forced docking. Now that I am thinking of it, it seems weird that Aurora does not have a teleportation option for troop modules given my understanding of how TNEs are supposed to work. Maybe if a teleportation option were introduced then shields could prevent that form of boarding without hindering to current method. Possible balancing factors could be that although the teleportation option would ignore the ship speed requirement, the module itself would be hugely tonnage inefficient, like a 1000 ton module but it can only hold 250 tons of units. It could also be made to be costly in terms of minerals, including Gallicite for flavor reasons and because it is hugely valuable in the meta.
 
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Offline sadoeconomist

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Re: Boarding vs Shields
« Reply #28 on: November 01, 2021, 04:19:58 PM »
The suggestion I thought of while reading this thread is to add a percent penalty to units' boarding attempts equal to the square root of current shield strength, applied after all other calculations. That's a simple enough rule and it'd mean that shields would help somewhat in boarding combat but wouldn't completely prevent it unless your shields were 10,000 or more. A tiny shield or a shield that had just started to recharge would have negligible effects on boarding, but a large undamaged shield would become quite dangerous to boarders, and more so as tech increased. Killing a significant percentage of a boarding party with a shield before combat begins could have a disproportionate effect on the subsequent combat, too. And having a policy of boarding ships with full shields could cause serious attrition among your marines in an extended campaign even if they were otherwise able to board ships and defeat crews without taking casualties.

Another solution would be to make it so that when a ship attempts to board a shielded ship, both ships take a hit equal to (HS of boarding ship / HS of target ship, if that's less than 1) * the target ship's current shield strength with the same damage gradient as ramming. Small heavily armored assault shuttles might be able to punch through a strong, intact shield but they'd probably take shock damage, it'd be very dangerous. A ship that had lost its shields and only recovered a few points, though, would barely scratch the paint on a boarding ship with its shields. And if the boarding ship has stronger shields than the boarded ship they'd be able to just absorb the hit. I think something like that hull size comparison needs to be there though, so that a tiny ship can't sacrifice itself to completely negate a huge ship's shields.

Maybe even add both of those to make boarding well-shielded ships technically possible but especially difficult and dramatic. Imagine you're a space marine sent in to board a strongly shielded enemy battleship, the first assault shuttle to go in explodes against the target's shield with the loss of all hands, but then your assault shuttle rams through with heavy damage, losing one of its troop transport bays along with half your company, and then as it maneuvers alongside the target and you cross through space to the hull, a third of your company's remaining marines along with the CO stray too close to an active shield projector and are boiled alive in their power armor. Then when you finally breach the hull, you're badly outnumbered against the crew. As your position is being overrun you think 'this mission would have been a cakewalk if only the shields had been down.' Because boarding almost ignores heavy armor it's good for balance if shields are a good defense against boarding tactics, but instead of making them absolutely negate boarding attempts, it'd be more fun if they made them likely to end in disaster.

Either way, I think boarding being totally prevented by even a single point of shields would just make boarding all but impossible in practice due to shield recharge, and having a certain minimum percentage of shield strength remaining prevent boarding would incentivize adding tiny shields on ships and result in similar problems. If shields affect boarding they should do so according to their objective strength rather than comparing their current strength to their theoretical full strength.
 
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Offline Bremen

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Re: Boarding vs Shields
« Reply #29 on: November 01, 2021, 04:46:15 PM »
I think shields shouldn't stop boarding; armor doesn't, after all, and it's not like boarding is a widely used tactic that badly needs a nerf.

If this change was made I see it mostly just mattering in the case of disabled ships that still have a shield generator or two, and needing to micro bringing over a warship to blast down the shields slowly and carefully without destroying the ship, which just sounds tedious and unfun. I'm as usual opposed to any change that adds micro for no real gameplay benefit, and this sounds like one.