2.5 Bugs

[Charlie Beeler]

John,

I don't think that Steve is advancing time in smaller increments than 5 seconds. (Steve correct this if I wrong)

In that case, with a 9 second window point defense will only get 1 shot.  If the mode is area then it is at longer range. If it is point(final) mode then just prior to impact.  Because of the sequence of play there isn't enough time for engagement at longer range with area mode, switch mode during the next time hack, recharge the lasers and engage in point blank/final defense mode.  

I was having a problem with this in most of my games.  I tend to design 10cm lasers with fairly long range (wave lengths that allow at least 150k) so that I can use longer range area mode and then switch to point blank for final defense.  I had miss were in the sequence the capacitors recharge so I was constantly swithing the modes when the range to the missiles was too short to get that last shot. With recharge at the beginning of the Firing Phase and not the start of the turn means you have to plan for a non-firing "turn" for mode switch and capacitor recharge.

[Erik L (OP)]

Steve, could you also condense and post this PD explaination in the Academy as well? It is the best explaination I have seen yet and don't want it lost due to aging of posts.

I've made sure that is turned off after the last time it happened. The only issue will be the posts being pushed down past page 1.

[Steve Walmsley]

I think there is an issue here, but I don't have a good suggestion for how to solve it.

In Kurt's case, the missiles were going to be within the engagement envelope for 9 seconds.  Assuming the capacitors were already charged up, that means he should be able to get two shots off - one at e.g. 5.5 seconds before impact (SBI) and the next at 0.5 SBI.  In this simple case, I think it's reasonable to assume that the ship's computers would be able to figure out that they should fire at 5.5 SBI and again at 0.5 SBI, rather than taking a single shot at 4.5 SBI.

Only if they knew that their own lasers wouldn't be needed to protect another ship less than 5 seconds later and the incoming missile didn't have a faster second stage and the ship wouldn't be changing direction or course in the next movement phase and it wouldn't take engine damage and a different ship's area defence wasn't going to take the missile out anyway and the hostile fire control guiding the missile didn't change targets or the missile wasn't on internal guidance and was going to change targets because something else moved closer, etc. It would just get completely out of hand in terms of complexity. Its far easier to have one mode that fires during the certainty of the fire phase and a second mode that waits until the certainty of the last fraction of a second for the best possible shot.

The issue is that the time granularity in Aurora is 5 seconds, so that the end of the first timestep that the missiles are in range is only e.g. 4.5 SBI.  So, due to the 5 second granularity, the final defensive fire only gets one shot at 4.5 SBI rather than two at 5.5 and 0.5.  Even though the hit probability at 4.5 SBI is probably bettern than at 5.5, it's probably not as good as the combined 2-shot probability.  If the timestep were 0.1 seconds, Kurt would have been able to get two shots in by doing what he tried to do.

The only thing I can think of to address this issue is to make the final defensive fire calculator smart enough to figure out when the next salvo will be hitting and adjust the time of the first shot so that the capacitors are recharged just in time for an additional point-black shot.  In terms of the code, I suspect this means putting e.g. a 0.1 second granularity on the charge state of capacitors, so that they can be fractionally charged at the end of a 5 second timestep.

Its just not possible with the way Aurora works. Final Defensive Fire can be used to protect any ship in range so you would have to know at what time each missile is going to hit each ship, assuming all the missiles in flight and ships in motion hold their current course and speed. As each move is handled in order of initiative for fleets and speed for missiles, I would have to run the movement phase once to check what was going to happen and then run it again to do the firing, which actually might affect some of the outcomes from the first time so you would have to run it a third time, etc. Not to mention that because of the other reasons mentioned above, such as area defence taking out missiles, missile second stages kicking in, ships taking engine damage or changing speed/course or missiles changing direction or hostile fire control changing targets, etc. there is just no way to know what is going to happen in the following movement phase so you certainly can't figure out exactly when to fire in this movement phase to leave yourself exactly 5 seconds to recharge.

Steve

[Steve Walmsley]

John,

I don't think that Steve is advancing time in smaller increments than 5 seconds. (Steve correct this if I wrong)

In that case, with a 9 second window point defense will only get 1 shot.  If the mode is area then it is at longer range. If it is point(final) mode then just prior to impact.  Because of the sequence of play there isn't enough time for engagement at longer range with area mode, switch mode during the next time hack, recharge the lasers and engage in point blank/final defense mode.  

I was having a problem with this in most of my games.  I tend to design 10cm lasers with fairly long range (wave lengths that allow at least 150k) so that I can use longer range area mode and then switch to point blank for final defense.  I had miss were in the sequence the capacitors recharge so I was constantly swithing the modes when the range to the missiles was too short to get that last shot. With recharge at the beginning of the Firing Phase and not the start of the turn means you have to plan for a non-firing "turn" for mode switch and capacitor recharge.

I think the issue is really that Final Defensive Fire and Area Defence are two completely different types of point defence modes designed for different situations, not two modes that a single fire control will often toggle between.

Area Defence is for escort ships away from the main body that can take several shots at missiles as they fly past or Aegis type ships that are covering a large area around the main body. Final Defensive Fire mode is for ships with short-range point defence that are waiting until the last possible moment to ensure they get the best from that point defence. Ships designed for the two modes will occupy two or three different roles within a defensive formation. Because of the uncertainty around when missiles will reach their targets, the Final Defensive Fire ships are foregoing the possibility of two shots to make sure their one shot really counts. Area Defence mode ship are using their long range weapons to get as many shots as possible with the understanding that they may not be able to time those attacks to get the best possible chances to hit, again because of the uncertainty around the actual time the missiles will reach their targets.

If a ship is going to use both modes, it needs long enough range to engage once and then change modes, which will require it to miss a fire phase so it can engage during the following movement phase at exactly the right moment. Unless it is actually the target, that ship will be far better off positioned between the target and the missiles (using the formation options on the Fleet window) so it can get several shots instead of changing modes and staying close to the target.

In v3.0 I can see four roles for escort ships. The long range defence will be provided by missile-armed escorts. Second may be ships deployed on the threat axis on the edge of a formation using long range beam weapons in area mode. Third will be units with long range beam weapons in area mode located in the main body. Finally units with fast firing, close range weapons in Final Defensive Fire mode will protect the heart of the formation.

Steve

[Charlie Beeler]

I think the issue is really that Final Defensive Fire and Area Defence are two completely different types of point defence modes designed for different situations, not two modes that a single fire control will often toggle between.

Oh, I agree that they are two different types with seperate functionality.  Where they are toggled by a single fire control suite is more of a player function.  It has a lot to do with the differences in fleet design concepts.  

Area Defence is for escort ships away from the main body that can take several shots at missiles as they fly past or Aegis type ships that are covering a large area around the main body. Final Defensive Fire mode is for ships with short-range point defence that are waiting until the last possible moment to ensure they get the best from that point defence. Ships designed for the two modes will occupy two or three different roles within a defensive formation. Because of the uncertainty around when missiles will reach their targets, the Final Defensive Fire ships are foregoing the possibility of two shots to make sure their one shot really counts. Area Defence mode ship are using their long range weapons to get as many shots as possible with the understanding that they may not be able to time those attacks to get the best possible chances to hit, again because of the uncertainty around the actual time the missiles will reach their targets.

At a certain level I agree with these design concepts.  Keep in mind that not every play will want, or even be able to afford, a balanced fleet.  

In my case, until recently I've been playing one off games with the sole intent of getting ships into combat.  With a starting race it's difficult, but not impossible, to have an initially balanaced fleet.  (ie you don't always see fleets with missile defense escorts)

If a ship is going to use both modes, it needs long enough range to engage once and then change modes, which will require it to miss a fire phase so it can engage during the following movement phase at exactly the right moment. Unless it is actually the target, that ship will be far better off positioned between the target and the missiles (using the formation options on the Fleet window) so it can get several shots instead of changing modes and staying close to the target.

In most of my starting games I've run laser wavelength up too at least Ultra-Violet which gets me 10cm lasers with a functional range of 120k/km.  Take beam fire control range to 32k and beam tracking speed to 3200kps plus capacitor 3's and you can have adiquate starting PD suites with either twin or quad turrets on each combat ship in the fleet.  Yes it is mass and hull space expensive(PD fire control is 4x for range and 4x for tracking speed plus the PD turret), but it also provides a better defense in depth that having a seperate dedicated defense ship.  Especially in the early game this also allows enough engagement range for 1 or 2 shots at incoming missiles in area mode and then a switch to final defense mode.  The play must be on his toes and correctly run the numbers or he ends up, as I have several times, with the missiles impacting without the final shot because the capacitors are still recharging.

My point isn't that it's the correct way to design and built, but that there are other fleet concepts that other players concieve and run with.

In v3.0 I can see four roles for escort ships. The long range defence will be provided by missile-armed escorts. Second may be ships deployed on the threat axis on the edge of a formation using long range beam weapons in area mode. Third will be units with long range beam weapons in area mode located in the main body. Finally units with fast firing, close range weapons in Final Defensive Fire mode will protect the heart of the formation.

Steve

Don't get me wrong, I also think that the best defense in depth is a mix of PD suites on core ships with short range beams for final defense, intermediate escorts with long range beams for area defense and additional escorts with very long range dedicated counter missiles batteries (which is why I asked for PD capability for missiles).  It's just that this type of fleet stratagy, for me anyway, is for a mature fleet.

[Kurt]

Steve -

Another little bit of strangeness regarding planetary bombardment.  I have a situation where twenty-two FAC's, each with two missile launchers, are firing on a planetary population.  They are firing forty-four size four missiles, all of which are hitting the target.  

The Event Update screen shows that the missiles hit, and an entry is generated for each missile indicating that it destroyed .5 million in population (everything else was destroyed in earlier salvoes).  Forty-four missiles each doing .5 million in casualties equals 22 million dead.  At the very end of the events listed on the Event Update screen for that time advance Aurora sums up the damage to the colony and correctly lists the dead as 22 million, however, when I check the main economic screen it appears that the colony only lost a couple of million.  It is possible that the colony lost exactly 2.2 million, making it exactly 1/10 of the amount listed on the Event Update screen, but I didn't record the actual amounts so I'm not sure if that is true.  

In any case, the colony started out with approximated 20 million in population, so based on the numbers listed on the Event Update screen it should have been wiped out in one salvo, but instead, after three salvoes, it is down to around 14 million.  

It is possible that you've changed the damage missiles inflict at some point, and the Event Update screen is still displaying the old damage, or something like that.  

Kurt

[Kurt]

Steve -

Two more fairly minor bugs.  

Bug #1: During bombardment of a planetary population, it appears that mass drivers are immune to damage from bombardment.  I've had two seperate populations that suffered near total economic devastation from bombardment, and both retained all of their mass drivers.  

Bug #2: I built a salvage ship, the first I've ever used, and sent it out to begin eliminating all of the numerous wrecks cluttering my system.  It began working on the first wreck, and when it finally completed salvage operations, I received the following error popup:
"Error in CompleteWreckSalvage, Error 94, Invalid use of null"

I clicked through the error message and the wreck in question disappeared, as it should have, and the salvage ship moved on to the next scheduled wreck.  In addition, 200 duranium were deposited in the salvage ship's hold.  

Kurt

Edit: Okay, I identified the source of the error message relating to salvage.  I realized that I designed my salvage ships with too little storage capacity for the resources they were salvaging.  Aurora generated the error when it tried to cram the salvaged resources into a cargo area with 0 capcity.