Author Topic: 2.5 Bugs  (Read 11696 times)

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Offline Haegan2005

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« Reply #90 on: April 07, 2008, 01:11:17 AM »
Kurt, wouldn't a missile moving at 18,000 kps move 90,000 km in 5 seconds? Your PD should, at best, get one shot at it. This assumes that the rules for this have not changed since 2.0.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Haegan2005 »
 

Offline Steve Walmsley

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« Reply #91 on: April 07, 2008, 06:01:06 AM »
Quote from: "Kurt"
Steve ?

I seem to have run into a bit of a problem, either in my understanding of the game or a bug.  Probably a bug, but we?ll see.

The situation is as follows: A group of FAC?s launch missiles at a group of four cruisers.  The missiles are launched at 167,000 km?s, and travel at 18,000 kps.  The cruisers are armed with three dual 12 cm laser turrets each, each of which have a ROF of five.  I calculated things out and realized that the cruisers should be able to get in two point defense shots with their lasers, once at approximately 77,000 km?s and the second time at point blank range.  Accordingly, I set the ship?s fire control to area point defense 8, so that they would engage targets out to 80,000 km?s.  

The first course of fire against the incoming missiles went off okay, although there was something strange.  The four cruisers have a total of twelve double turrets, for a total of twenty-four lasers.  They fired as planned, but only two of the three turrets on each ship engaged, strangely enough.  While it is possible that this is due to an error in setting up the fire on my part, I don?t think it was as I set up one ship and copied its fire control settings throughout the fleet, then hit the open fire button for the entire fleet.  Still, it is possible that I set that last turret on each ship to something different.  
I haven't come across this particular problem before and I have handled a lot of similar situations. It does sound like the third turret may not have been assigned to the fire control. Can you remember checking the fire control summary, or can you remember if you used assign all, or assigned them individually?

Quote
At any rate, after this course of fire, I reset the fire control for the entire fleet to point blank 1, and hit the open fire button for the entire fleet.  This time none of the lasers engaged, not even the turrets that hadn?t fired in the first round.  The notation in the Event Update screen noted for the first two turrets on the first cruiser as follows: ?Twin 12cm C4 Near Ultraviolet Laser Turret recharging.  0 power in capacitor.  8 power required to fire.?  None of the other ship?s turrets are listed as even trying to fire.  
The problem here is that the lasers did not have time to recharge. Weapons recharge during the fire phase, which follows the movement phase. As you fired the lasers in the fire phase of the first increment, they didn't have time to recharge before the movement phase of the second increment. Here is a link to the sequence of play:

http://aurora.pentarch.org/viewtopic.php?t=532

This is one of the reasons I added the options for point blank and area fire so you can decide whether to hold lasers back for last second defensive fire during the movement phase or use them for long range interceptions. It's interesting that the third turret didn't fire though as that should still have been charged. Can you check it is assigned to the fire control in question?

Quote
One question occurs immediately ? what does ?Power 8-8? mean.  Eight units of power in eight seconds?  If so, what does ROF 5 mean?
ROF = Rate of Fire. Given enough power the turrets will fire every 5 seconds. Power 8-8 means the turrets require 8 power to fire (the first digit) and they can receive that power at up to 8 every 5 second increment (the second digit). For example the following laser requires 6 power to fire and can receive that power at 2 per five second increment (due to the type of capacitor), which gives it a ROF of 15 seconds.

15cm C2 Visible Light Laser (4)    Range 96,000km     TS: 3200 km/s     Power 6-2     RM 2    ROF 15

Quote
Looking at the tech report screen, the 12cm C4 NU Laser has the following stats:
Power: 4
Recharge Rate: 4
Max Rate of Fire: 5 seconds
That is the basic laser but once you combine lasers into a turret, the turret itself effectively becomes a new weapon type. In this case a 12cm laser that fires 2 shots every 5 seconds and requires 8 power every 5 seconds.

Quote
If I did something wrong, I can?t understand what it would have been.  It is always possible that I don?t understand something that I think I understand, of course.  Otherwise, the problem may be in the recharge calculations, or in the turn sequence.  Do weapons recharge after firing, or before?

Weapons charge at the start of the firing phase, which follows movement. As you guessed, the sequence of play was the reason the lasers couldn't fire. Without completing a full cycle of the sequence of play they would have fired twice in less than 5 seconds, or put another way the missiles would have travelled the distance from the first firing point to the ship in less than 5 seconds. By holding them for point blank fire the lasers would be ready to fire at exactly the right moment.

Steve
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Steve Walmsley »
 

Offline Kurt

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« Reply #92 on: April 07, 2008, 11:30:05 AM »
Quote from: "Steve Walmsley"
Quote from: "Kurt"
Steve ?

I seem to have run into a bit of a problem, either in my understanding of the game or a bug.  Probably a bug, but we?ll see.

The situation is as follows: A group of FAC?s launch missiles at a group of four cruisers.  The missiles are launched at 167,000 km?s, and travel at 18,000 kps.  The cruisers are armed with three dual 12 cm laser turrets each, each of which have a ROF of five.  I calculated things out and realized that the cruisers should be able to get in two point defense shots with their lasers, once at approximately 77,000 km?s and the second time at point blank range.  Accordingly, I set the ship?s fire control to area point defense 8, so that they would engage targets out to 80,000 km?s.  

The first course of fire against the incoming missiles went off okay, although there was something strange.  The four cruisers have a total of twelve double turrets, for a total of twenty-four lasers.  They fired as planned, but only two of the three turrets on each ship engaged, strangely enough.  While it is possible that this is due to an error in setting up the fire on my part, I don?t think it was as I set up one ship and copied its fire control settings throughout the fleet, then hit the open fire button for the entire fleet.  Still, it is possible that I set that last turret on each ship to something different.  
I haven't come across this particular problem before and I have handled a lot of similar situations. It does sound like the third turret may not have been assigned to the fire control. Can you remember checking the fire control summary, or can you remember if you used assign all, or assigned them individually?

Quote
At any rate, after this course of fire, I reset the fire control for the entire fleet to point blank 1, and hit the open fire button for the entire fleet.  This time none of the lasers engaged, not even the turrets that hadn?t fired in the first round.  The notation in the Event Update screen noted for the first two turrets on the first cruiser as follows: ?Twin 12cm C4 Near Ultraviolet Laser Turret recharging.  0 power in capacitor.  8 power required to fire.?  None of the other ship?s turrets are listed as even trying to fire.  
The problem here is that the lasers did not have time to recharge. Weapons recharge during the fire phase, which follows the movement phase. As you fired the lasers in the fire phase of the first increment, they didn't have time to recharge before the movement phase of the second increment. Here is a link to the sequence of play:

http://aurora.pentarch.org/viewtopic.php?t=532

This is one of the reasons I added the options for point blank and area fire so you can decide whether to hold lasers back for last second defensive fire during the movement phase or use them for long range interceptions. It's interesting that the third turret didn't fire though as that should still have been charged. Can you check it is assigned to the fire control in question?

Quote
One question occurs immediately ? what does ?Power 8-8? mean.  Eight units of power in eight seconds?  If so, what does ROF 5 mean?
ROF = Rate of Fire. Given enough power the turrets will fire every 5 seconds. Power 8-8 means the turrets require 8 power to fire (the first digit) and they can receive that power at up to 8 every 5 second increment (the second digit). For example the following laser requires 6 power to fire and can receive that power at 2 per five second increment (due to the type of capacitor), which gives it a ROF of 15 seconds.

15cm C2 Visible Light Laser (4)    Range 96,000km     TS: 3200 km/s     Power 6-2     RM 2    ROF 15

Quote
Looking at the tech report screen, the 12cm C4 NU Laser has the following stats:
Power: 4
Recharge Rate: 4
Max Rate of Fire: 5 seconds
That is the basic laser but once you combine lasers into a turret, the turret itself effectively becomes a new weapon type. In this case a 12cm laser that fires 2 shots every 5 seconds and requires 8 power every 5 seconds.

Quote
If I did something wrong, I can?t understand what it would have been.  It is always possible that I don?t understand something that I think I understand, of course.  Otherwise, the problem may be in the recharge calculations, or in the turn sequence.  Do weapons recharge after firing, or before?
Weapons charge at the start of the firing phase, which follows movement. As you guessed, the sequence of play was the reason the lasers couldn't fire. Without completing a full cycle of the sequence of play they would have fired twice in less than 5 seconds, or put another way the missiles would have travelled the distance from the first firing point to the ship in less than 5 seconds. By holding them for point blank fire the lasers would be ready to fire at exactly the right moment.

Steve


Okay, I understand now.  If the firing in the second turn was taking place during the fire sequence, then the lasers would have fired because they would have had time to charge, but because point blank point defense fire takes place during movement, the lasers didn't have time to charge.  All is clear now.  

I still don't understand what is happening with the third turret, and unfortunately, the battle where this came up is over and the involved ships were destroyed.  I'll check the other ships of the same class in the same system to see how their turrets were set up.  

I am 100% certain that the third turret was assigned to a fire control, but it is possible that in error they were assigned to the same fire control as turrets one or two, instead of a different fire control.  I'll check.  

Kurt
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Kurt »
 

Offline Charlie Beeler

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« Reply #93 on: April 07, 2008, 02:27:40 PM »
Steve please correct any misconception I've injected here.

If I understand correctly, Kurt could set point defense to point blank and 9 and petentially get 2 shots at the incoming missiles during movement (fire during missile movement turn 1, recharge weapons turn 1, fire again during missile movement turn 2).
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Charlie Beeler »
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Offline Kurt

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« Reply #94 on: April 07, 2008, 05:41:38 PM »
Quote from: "Haegan2005"
Kurt, wouldn't a missile moving at 18,000 kps move 90,000 km in 5 seconds? Your PD should, at best, get one shot at it. This assumes that the rules for this have not changed since 2.0.

 
You are correct that the missile moved 90,000 km's, however, my plan was that the missiles started at 167,000 km's on turn 0, and on turn 1 they moved to 77,000 km's and my lasers engaged with area point defense 8 setting.  They did engage as I planned, and after firing at 77,000 km's, I reset the point defense fire control to point blank 1, and it was my hope (and belief) that they would engage a second time at 10,000 km's.  They did not, and I was confused until Steve pointed out that the turn sequence meant that the lasers didn't have time to recharge.  

Standard charging and firing takes place during combat, which is after moving.  Point blank point defense firing takes place during movement, which means that the lasers, which fired last turn at 77,000 km's, didn't have time to recharge yet.  

Kurt
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Kurt »
 

Offline Erik L (OP)

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« Reply #95 on: April 07, 2008, 06:06:30 PM »
Quote from: "Kurt"
Quote from: "Haegan2005"
Kurt, wouldn't a missile moving at 18,000 kps move 90,000 km in 5 seconds? Your PD should, at best, get one shot at it. This assumes that the rules for this have not changed since 2.0.

You are correct that the missile moved 90,000 km's, however, my plan was that the missiles started at 167,000 km's on turn 0, and on turn 1 they moved to 77,000 km's and my lasers engaged with area point defense 8 setting.  They did engage as I planned, and after firing at 77,000 km's, I reset the point defense fire control to point blank 1, and it was my hope (and belief) that they would engage a second time at 10,000 km's.  They did not, and I was confused until Steve pointed out that the turn sequence meant that the lasers didn't have time to recharge.  

Standard charging and firing takes place during combat, which is after moving.  Point blank point defense firing takes place during movement, which means that the lasers, which fired last turn at 77,000 km's, didn't have time to recharge yet.  

Kurt


So if you'd have set the PD to 10, they should have engaged during movement at 96,000km, recharged in the fire phase and engaged again the next move phase. Correct?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Erik Luken »
 

Offline Haegan2005

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« Reply #96 on: April 07, 2008, 08:17:43 PM »
Ah. I missed that 167,000 part.  :oops:
 
Quote
You are correct that the missile moved 90,000 km's, however, my plan was that the missiles started at 167,000 km's on turn 0, and on turn 1 they moved to 77,000 km's and my lasers engaged with area point defense 8 setting.  They did engage as I planned, and after firing at 77,000 km's, I reset the point defense fire control to point blank 1, and it was my hope (and belief) that they would engage a second time at 10,000 km's.  They did not, and I was confused until Steve pointed out that the turn sequence meant that the lasers didn't have time to recharge.  

Standard charging and firing takes place during combat, which is after moving.  Point blank point defense firing takes place during movement, which means that the lasers, which fired last turn at 77,000 km's, didn't have time to recharge yet.  

Kurt
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Haegan2005 »
 

Offline Steve Walmsley

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« Reply #97 on: April 08, 2008, 05:36:19 AM »
Quote from: "Charlie Beeler"
Steve please correct any misconception I've injected here.

If I understand correctly, Kurt could set point defense to point blank and 9 and petentially get 2 shots at the incoming missiles during movement (fire during missile movement turn 1, recharge weapons turn 1, fire again during missile movement turn 2).

The only time that point defence gets to fire during movement is for point blank defence. The reason that point blank defence has a range is for those situations where one ship is using point blank defence to guard a second ship. In gameplay terms, setting missiles to point blank defence gives you the advantage of intercepting missiles during movement and at the best possible chance to hit. Setting area defence allows you to attack any missile in range during the fire phase, regardless of its target or when it will arrive at its target. Area defence is best for either escort ships positioned on the threat axis (probably through setting up a formation), because they can shoot at missiles as they approach and again as they pass, or for ships with long range armament that will get two shots or more before point blank defence is required.

In any event, the player would also presumably want the point defence system to fire at the moment where it has the best chance to hit, which is either at the end of the movement phase anyway, if the missile hasn't reached its target yet, or at the point just before it reaches its target, which is covered by point blank defence. However, you can't have the best of both worlds where you fire at the end of movement in the first increment and then fire again before the end of movement in the next increment, because less than 5 seconds will have passed and the point defence system won't have recharged.

The exception to the best chance of hitting being after movement might be when an escort is firing at a passing target where the best chance to hit is actually halfway through the movement phase. However, to handle this I would have to calculate the chance to hit for every point defence system vs every missile salvo for each location through which each missile salvo would pass during an increment. That would be extremely complex and would have a significant hit on performance. Besides, it may be that by firing during the fire phase rather than mid-movement the escort gets two shots as the missile approaches and then leaves, rather than one shot at the closest point, and those two shots combined give it a better chance. Ther permutations are just too complex to calculate, which is why I went for the two options of area defence or point blank defence

Steve
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Steve Walmsley »
 

Offline Steve Walmsley

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« Reply #98 on: April 08, 2008, 05:49:39 AM »
Quote from: "Erik Luken"
So if you'd have set the PD to 10, they should have engaged during movement at 96,000km, recharged in the fire phase and engaged again the next move phase. Correct?

If you set area defence with range of 100,000km, the point defence will engage the closest missiles within 100,000km during each fire phase. If you set point blank defence with 100,000 range, the point defence will fire to defend any ship within 100,000km that is about to be hit by a missile during the movement phase. In effect, point blank mode prevents the point defence system from firing during the fire phase phase so it is guaranteed to be ready to fire against a missile about to hit its target during the following movement phase.

Steve
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Steve Walmsley »
 

Offline Charlie Beeler

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« Reply #99 on: April 08, 2008, 08:03:01 AM »
I'm probably over simplifying this in my own mind.

Area Mode -  assigned weapons fire during Fire Phase, if charged/loaded, at nearest missile salvo within set range provided weapon (beam anyway since missiles will launch even if target is out of actual missile range), fire control, and sensors are able to function at actual target range.

Point Blank Mode - assigned weapons fire during Missile Salvos movement sub-phase of the Movement Phase at the nearest missile salvo with the same range cavets as Area Mode.  The other functional difference is that fire will be attempted at effective range too missile at the missiles target just prior to impact/detonation.  (do laser heads affect this?)

Point Blank Mode (self defense) - Not sure how much of a programatic/functional difference there is here from non-self defense Point Blnak Mode.


For example purposes I'm assuming that the defending fire control is set to Point Blank Mode with range set at 9 for 90K km and that the beams assigned have a 5 sec ROF and sufficent reactor power to support.  

An enemy missile traveling at 18k/kps moves to 90k/km from the defending ship.  These missiles are the closest identified enemy missiles so they are engaged during the same movement phase that they entered range.  Not all missiles in the salvo attacked are killed.

During the first sub-phase of the following Fire Phase the beams are recharged.

Time increment set 5 seconds.

My assumption to this point was that since the weapons are 5 sec ROF and recharged the previous Fire Phase they would be available for Point Blank/Intercept fire during the next Missile Salvo Movement sub-phase of the Movement phase.  If I understand you correctly, intercept is not considered to be less than 5 seconds for ROF purposes and the beams are not allowed to fire for final intercept.  But... if the missiles target had been moving away so that the missiles did not intercept thier target during this movement phase then the 5 seconds is satisfied and the beams will again attempt to fire.

I just realized I've been making the assumption that both Area and Point Blank modes have thier maximum range limited by the fire control.  Is there a seperate maximum range that is less than the fire control range for Point Blank Mode?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Charlie Beeler »
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Offline Steve Walmsley

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« Reply #100 on: April 08, 2008, 08:35:38 AM »
Quote from: "Charlie Beeler"
I'm probably over simplifying this in my own mind.

Area Mode -  assigned weapons fire during Fire Phase, if charged/loaded, at nearest missile salvo within set range provided weapon (beam anyway since missiles will launch even if target is out of actual missile range), fire control, and sensors are able to function at actual target range.
Correct

Quote
Point Blank Mode - assigned weapons fire during Missile Salvos movement sub-phase of the Movement Phase at the nearest missile salvo with the same range cavets as Area Mode.  The other functional difference is that fire will be attempted at effective range too missile at the missiles target just prior to impact/detonation.  (do laser heads affect this?)
Point Blank mode will only work against missiles that are just about to hit their targets (i.e. at point blank range). They won't fire at any other targets. They don't fire at the nearest target; they fire at the first qualifying target during the movement phase. They also will not fire at any missiles that do not reach their targets during that movement phase. The actual mechanics are that missile salvos move in ascending order of speed. If any salvo reaches its target, resolution of the salvo vs the target is halted while the program checks for any point defence set to point blank mode. The first ship to be checked is the target ship which is treated as firing at 10,000 km. Next to be checked are any other ships set to point blank mode that are within the range set for that mode. So if another ship is 60,000 kilometers away with point defence set to point blank mode and a range of 100,000 kilometers, it will also be eligible to protect the attacked ship. Point blank mode is a way to prevent a ship from firing during the fire phase so its weapons are charged and ready during the movement phase and can engage missiles as they attack their targets.

Quote
Point Blank Mode (self defense) - Not sure how much of a programatic/functional difference there is here from non-self defense Point Blank Mode.
The difference is that a ship with this setting will only use its point defence to protect itself whereas a ship with the first setting will protect any ship within its range. So you might set a capital unit to only protect itself while its escorts would be set to protect any ship in range.

Quote
For example purposes I'm assuming that the defending fire control is set to Point Blank Mode with range set at 9 for 90K km and that the beams assigned have a 5 sec ROF and sufficent reactor power to support.  

An enemy missile traveling at 18k/kps moves to 90k/km from the defending ship.  These missiles are the closest identified enemy missiles so they are engaged during the same movement phase that they entered range.  Not all missiles in the salvo attacked are killed.
The point defence will not engage the missiles in this example because it will only engage missiles that reach their targets. The reason for this is to ensure the point defence is available when needed the most. For example, assume the attacking missiles are travelling at 20,000 km/s and the point defence is set to 60,000 km in PB mode. The missiles appear at 160,000 kilometers. In the next 5 seconds they move to 60,000 kilometers. If the PD was in Area mode it would engage these missiles during the fire phase. As it is in point-blank mode it ignores them. During the second increment the missiles reach the ship and the point blank mode point defence engages before the missiles attack is resolved. Note that if the point defence had fired at 60,000 kilometers, it would not have recharged in time because the missiles would cover the 60,000 kilometers in 3 seconds and attack mid-way through the movement phase.  By setting the PD to point blank, it doesn't fire and is therefore available to shoot at the missiles midway through the movement phase.

Quote
During the first sub-phase of the following Fire Phase the beams are recharged. Time increment set 5 seconds.

My assumption to this point was that since the weapons are 5 sec ROF and recharged the previous Fire Phase they would be available for Point Blank/Intercept fire during the next Missile Salvo Movement sub-phase of the Movement phase.  If I understand you correctly, intercept is not considered to be less than 5 seconds for ROF purposes and the beams are not allowed to fire for final intercept.  But... if the missiles target had been moving away so that the missiles did not intercept their target during this movement phase then the 5 seconds is satisfied and the beams will again attempt to fire.
Point blank mode point defence will recharge between movement phases as it recharges during the fire phase. However, it can only be used against missiles actually attacking their targets. It cannot fire after movement is completed because then it would effectively be firing in the fire phase and would not be able to recharge fast enough (in reality) to hit something midway through the next movement phase, which would less than 5 seconds later. If you want point defence to fire at missiles that have completed movement, it needs to be set to area mode.

Quote
I just realized I've been making the assumption that both Area and Point Blank modes have thier maximum range limited by the fire control.  Is there a seperate maximum range that is less than the fire control range for Point Blank Mode?

The maximum range is based on the fire control range, point defence mode range and weapon range, whichever is the least. The range for area mode is the maximum range at which the point defence wil engage any missile target. The max range for point blank mode is that maximum range at which the fire control will protect another ship that is currently resolving an attack by missiles

Steve
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Steve Walmsley »
 
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Offline Charlie Beeler

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« Reply #101 on: April 08, 2008, 10:01:06 AM »
Steve thanks for the quick reply.  I knew that I had to be missing/overlooking something obvious.  

So, for anything other than final defense you need to use area mode.  But, if you plan to switch modes from area to point blank you need to plan for 10 seconds leed not 5.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Charlie Beeler »
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Offline Steve Walmsley

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« Reply #102 on: April 08, 2008, 10:33:22 AM »
Quote from: "Charlie Beeler"
Steve thanks for the quick reply.  I knew that I had to be missing/overlooking something obvious.  

So, for anything other than final defense you need to use area mode.  But, if you plan to switch modes from area to point blank you need to plan for 10 seconds leed not 5.

I think using your term of final defence is actually a better description than point blank fire. So for v3.0 point blank mode becomes Final Defensive Fire and Final Defensive Fire (Self Only). Area Mode is now Area Defence.

Steve
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Steve Walmsley »
 

Offline Haegan2005

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« Reply #103 on: April 08, 2008, 01:27:47 PM »
Steve, could you also condense and post this PD explaination in the Academy as well? It is the best explaination I have seen yet and don't want it lost due to aging of posts.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Haegan2005 »
 

Offline sloanjh

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« Reply #104 on: April 08, 2008, 02:09:15 PM »
I think there is an issue here, but I don't have a good suggestion for how to solve it.

In Kurt's case, the missiles were going to be within the engagement envelope for 9 seconds.  Assuming the capacitors were already charged up, that means he should be able to get two shots off - one at e.g. 5.5 seconds before impact (SBI) and the next at 0.5 SBI.  In this simple case, I think it's reasonable to assume that the ship's computers would be able to figure out that they should fire at 5.5 SBI and again at 0.5 SBI, rather than taking a single shot at 4.5 SBI.

The issue is that the time granularity in Aurora is 5 seconds, so that the end of the first timestep that the missiles are in range is only e.g. 4.5 SBI.  So, due to the 5 second granularity, the final defensive fire only gets one shot at 4.5 SBI rather than two at 5.5 and 0.5.  Even though the hit probability at 4.5 SBI is probably bettern than at 5.5, it's probably not as good as the combined 2-shot probability.  If the timestep were 0.1 seconds, Kurt would have been able to get two shots in by doing what he tried to do.

The only thing I can think of to address this issue is to make the final defensive fire calculator smart enough to figure out when the next salvo will be hitting and adjust the time of the first shot so that the capacitors are recharged just in time for an additional point-black shot.  In terms of the code, I suspect this means putting e.g. a 0.1 second granularity on the charge state of capacitors, so that they can be fractionally charged at the end of a 5 second timestep.

John
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by sloanjh »