Recent Posts

Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 ... 10
11
C# Suggestions / Re: C# Suggestions
« Last post by Scandinavian on Yesterday at 12:59:36 PM »
It's only faster in terms of keellaying-to-deployment. Not in terms of vessels per year per unit of TN capital investment.

It's potentially very useful if you are waiting on a specific new component before laying a bunch of keels for a new class, that you need really urgently. E.g. pre-building the engines for a class that you can't lay keels for because the fire control designs are not ready yet, or pre-building components while you tool up the yards. But in terms of sustained production, you are better off expanding yard capacity than factory capacity.

There is some tradeoff in that factories typically have higher utilization than yards (you can use factories for other things when not in a shipbuilding program), so if you tend to build your ships in spurts with long idle periods for your yards, it can be worth it to take the higher up-front cost of capital to end up with lower levelized cost through higher utilization. But building that kind of models is a thing I insist on getting paid for, so I usually don't break out the spreadsheets and instead just eyeball it.

Which, actually now that I think about it...

... why not let shipyards perform overhauls? That would let us use unused yard slips to free up maintenance facilities, and would certainly be a thing you would do in the real world during a shipbuilding downturn.
12
C# Suggestions / Re: C# Suggestions
« Last post by Steve Zax on Yesterday at 06:22:33 AM »
Quote from: hostergaard link=topic=10640. msg160499#msg160499 date=1656506936
Construct all components for ship option

Quality of life feature: Add an option under the industry, either in the components selection or preferably as its own separate  list that allows you to simply construct all components for a given ship class.  This so you don't have to constantly go trough and figure out what components is needed and individually build them.
i USED to do that for EVRY ship of EVERY class, then EVERY ship of warship classes, then the FIRST run of every warship class. . . .
i rarely do it now.  just too many other things i need to do with the industry instead of letting the shipyard do it.  I know its "quicker," I'm pretty sure its not cheaper on resources, maybe its cheaper on wealth, but I doubt it, but BOY HOWDY is it more on micromanagement ( especially if you want each component to be ready on time , and not early).
13
C# Suggestions / Re: Food
« Last post by Scandinavian on Yesterday at 03:23:13 AM »
In theory, yes, any country that desires sovereignty will want to minimize its import dependencies on food and fuel.

In practice it is usually more advantageous to the local compradors of peripheral and semi-peripheral economies to convert food crop agriculture to cash crop agriculture. The archetypal example being the slave states in the US civil war, which were not self-sufficient in foodstuffs despite having plenty of topsoil, potable water and an amenable climate for raising livestock and food crops.

This trend toward food and fuel import dependencies is usually further encouraged by imperial trade policy, for various reasons tangential to the present discussion.

Now, whether it is actually interesting to have it modeled in the game... this is a different question, which IMO should not rest on the realism of the economic model of empire employed by the game (which is highly abstracted, and in any case does not neatly correspond to any real-world economic system I know of).

Personally, I'd rather see more automation of the logistics that is already in place than adding new micro-management burdens on the player. I like any feature that lets me set up an overall plan of execution and automate the repetitive clicking. Things like having a pool of imperial freighters that move installations using a logic similar to the civilian commercial orders system, so I don't have to do individual tasking and routing of individual freighters or groups of freighters. Or conditional orders that let me set conditions based on stock levels of a population (like "if [fleet, population] below minimum [fuel, maint parts, ammo] stock, transfer consumables from nearest [fleet, population] with stock above maximum stock").
14
OOC Note: As a reminder for the benefit of the reader, the agenda and attendance for the Naval Conference can be found in the first post of Chapter XXI and may be of some use to keep track of the various personalities involved as well as to be apprised of upcoming topics of discussion - about which speculation is as always encouraged!

N.B. Comment replies on the bottom of the preceding page, for all two of you who care.
  ;)

----

25 May 4009

1300: Session on Future Directions for the Fleet Scouting Role, Duranium Legion Naval Conference

As one might expect, the need for a revision or replacement of the original Bellerophon design was obvious even to those outside of the Lords Admiralty, and had been for some time albeit some members of the Legion Navy had been sounding the alarm for a good deal longer than others (most curiously, the earliest proponents of such a rework had originated from the Mining Department of all places). Such alarmism had, given time, worked its way into the ship design offices, and a task group had been quietly assigned to prepare a sensible design proposal representing iterative improvement with minimal rocking of boats. This project had proceeded at a moderate pace and a design was completed in due time, and in fact had worked its way through most of the various rungs of the bureaucratic ladder to secure internal approval. In fact, senior members of the ship design offices had anticipated submitting the finished proposal to the procuration office for final approval between June and August 4009, just in time for new construction orders to be issued for the Legion Special Projects Division as shipyard spaces were freed on the commissioning of Bad Intentions and Blatant Insult. In short, all was proceeding as planned until the Naval Conference occurred.

Unfortunately for those in the ship design offices, the Naval Conference brought to the Bellerophon redesign project the greatest enemy of those offices, this being the attention of the Lords Admiral. Regardless of how well-designed the Bellerophon Mk II class might be on paper, it lacked one critical feature necessary for acceptance, namely it had not been the brainchild of a Lord Admiral and thus carried minimal value as a tool for political maneuvering and points-scoring. Left alone, then, the eminently sensible product of the honest work and field expertise of the ship design offices would likely flounder in the Conference chambers before ultimately being passed over in favor of some harebrained scheme involving missiles, hangar bays, or some other high-ranking nonsense. Thus, it fell to the senior leadership of the ship design offices to devise a solution which might give their proposal at least a fighting chance in the Conference chambers.

Fortunately, a potential solution did exist. The senior leadership reasoned that while every Lord Admiral would surely desire to present their pet design as a favored candidate, not every Lord Admiral would devote the time and effort towards developing a suitable design in the first place. Thus, if the right Lords Admiral could be persuaded to back the design as if it were their own pet project, sufficient political will might be generated that a sensible result might be obtained, for once. Curiously, after much discussion the staff in the ship design offices identified two particular Lords Admiral who possessed the necessary combination of strong political support and lack of Bellerophon-related ideas that this plan could stand some chance of success. While subsequent attempts to reach out to these candidates proved largely successful, the result would certainly lend credence to the old saying about strange bedfellows.

----

Thus, as the 25 May afternoon session of the Naval Conference commenced, Lord Grand Admiral Tethys Argyron was pleased to present her supported redesign of the Bellerophon class, developed “in conjunction with” the fine men and women at the ship design offices for the occasion:

Off-Topic: Bellerophon Mk II Standard Upgrade class Frigate • show
Bellerophon Mk II ‘Standard Upgrade’ class Frigate      7,500 tons       196 Crew       1,169.9 BP       TCS 150    TH 750    EM 0
5000 km/s      Armour 4-34       Shields 0-0       HTK 36      Sensors 96/96/0/0      DCR 6      PPV 6
Maint Life 3.25 Years     MSP 584    AFR 75%    IFR 1.0%    1YR 83    5YR 1,248    Max Repair 187.5 MSP
Commander    Control Rating 2   BRG   AUX   
Intended Deployment Time: 12 months    Morale Check Required   

Hyperion Drive Yards H-375 Frigate Engine 'Gryphon' (2)    Power 750    Fuel Use 46.19%    Signature 375    Explosion 10%
Fuel Capacity 592,000 Litres    Range 30.8 billion km (71 days at full power)

Arcadia Weapons Systems 102 mm Defense Battery Mk III (2x4)    Range 30,000km     TS: 5,000 km/s     Power 3-3     RM 30,000 km    ROF 5       
Sangarius Systems Defense Battery Director Mk IV (1)     Max Range: 96,000 km   TS: 5,000 km/s
Chryson Dynamics 6 TW Induction Drive Cell Mk VI (1)     Total Power Output 6.2    Exp 5%

Scamander Corporation Series XVI Long-Range Array (1)     GPS 14400     Range 83.1m km    Resolution 150
Scamander Corporation Series XVI Missile Warning Array (1)     GPS 96     Range 15.6m km    MCR 1.4m km    Resolution 1
Scamander Corporation Series VIII RF Wave Array (1)     Sensitivity 96     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  77.5m km
Scamander Corporation Series VIII Infrared Array (1)     Sensitivity 96     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  77.5m km


As the Lord Grand Admiral prepared to expound upon the virtues of this surely impressive piece of design work, a loud objection was raised from the floor, as Lord High Admiral Jack Macaria demanded to know why the design specifications being presented by his colleague just so happened to be exactly the same as those he was scheduled to present immediately thereafter. Lord Grand Admiral Argyron, sensing the clear implication, vociferously insisted that the design was original work, developed “in conjunction with” the ship design offices as she had previously stated, and was certainly not in any way plagiarized from anyone, least of all her esteemed colleague. Lord High Admiral Macaria was quick on the draw, insisting with equal fervor that this was funny to hear, considering that the exact same statement was true of the design specifications he held in his hands.

Fortunately, Lord Admiral Criasus had the presence of mind to discern that a certain measure of subterfuge may have occurred, and suggested to the two quarreling officers that the question could be resolved by consulting the head of the ship design offices to ascertain the facts of the case. This suggestion sufficed to prevent an imminent exchange of blows, largely as both would-be combatants were quite eager to know the truth of the matter themselves. A fire team of the Imperial Guard detachment was dispatched, and returned after a tense thirty minutes escorting the head of the ship design offices with great haste and all due respect. Sheepishly, and more than a bit rattled, the man quickly clarified that his staff had enlisted the support of both Lords Admiral for the same design, developed by his own offices well ahead of the Conference, and had apparently made a small oversight in communicating to those Lords Admiral. Lord Grand Admiral Argyron and Lord High Admiral Macaria were, of course, still rather put out at this sequence of events, but at least the immediate tension had been resolved and there was no risk of body blows in the very transient present moment.

At this point, the reader could be forgiven for attributing this as a heinous blunder on the part of the ship design staff. Indeed, failing to inform the chosen candidates about each other’s involvement was an oversight with no rational nor strategic basis, and the head of the ship design offices could not expect much in the way of future career advancement. However, the general thrust of the plan remained valid, as having once been put on the spot neither Lord Grand Admiral Argyron nor Lord High Admiral Macaria were willing to back down and admit error, thus both continued to express their support for the class, however reluctantly and however secretly glowering over having been forced to agree with one another by unforeseen circumstances. Similarly, many among the assembly took notice of this unlikely alliance, which would be a key factor in their own decision-making processes.

The design itself was certainly solid and deserving of support, as would be expected from a ship class not designed by a harebrained Lord Admiral. In exchange for the high-resolution sensor array, considered superfluous by most of the Naval establishment, the armor thickness had been increased by 33%. Additionally, the combination of space efficiency savings and fire control system improvements would allow for an increase in fuel loading and a corresponding 50% increase in range, a useful capability for the fleet scouting role of the class. Otherwise, pre-existing capabilities had been maintained, with the designers trusting in improved armor and doctrinal manuals to do most of the heavy lifting. The Conference attendees generally agreed on this, and while some minor discussions were had over the potential value of increasing the fuel load even more, and possibly the crew accommodations to support longer deployment times, might prove more beneficial than up-armoring the class, ultimately the design was found generally agreeable by those in attendance.

This is not to say, of course, that alternatives were not explored by the Conference nevertheless. Perhaps the most compelling revision was presented by Lord Admiral Gaia Pandia, who advocated for a Bellerophon variant which was better-suited for the critical commerce raiding role:

Off-Topic: Bellerophon Mk II Raider class Frigate • show
Bellerophon Mk II ‘Raider’ class Frigate      7,500 tons       202 Crew       1,134.1 BP       TCS 150    TH 750    EM 0
5000 km/s      Armour 4-34       Shields 0-0       HTK 39      Sensors 96/96/0/0      DCR 6      PPV 10
Maint Life 4.11 Years     MSP 847    AFR 75%    IFR 1.0%    1YR 80    5YR 1,206    Max Repair 187.5 MSP
Commander    Control Rating 2   BRG   AUX   
Intended Deployment Time: 12 months    Morale Check Required   

Hyperion Drive Yards H-375 Frigate Engine 'Gryphon' (2)    Power 750    Fuel Use 46.19%    Signature 375    Explosion 10%
Fuel Capacity 545,000 Litres    Range 28.3 billion km (65 days at full power)

127 mm Light Battery Mk IV (2x4)    Range 80,000km     TS: 5,000 km/s     Power 6-3     RM 40,000 km    ROF 10       
Mk IV Light Battery Director Prototype (1)     Max Range: 144,000 km   TS: 5,000 km/s
Chryson Dynamics 6 TW Induction Drive Cell Mk VI (1)     Total Power Output 6.2    Exp 5%

Scamander Corporation Series XVI Long-Range Array (1)     GPS 14400     Range 83.1m km    Resolution 150
Scamander Corporation Series XVI Onboard Targeting System (1)     GPS 16     Range 6.4m km    MCR 574.5k km    Resolution 1
Scamander Corporation Series VIII RF Wave Array (1)     Sensitivity 96     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  77.5m km
Scamander Corporation Series VIII Infrared Array (1)     Sensitivity 96     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  77.5m km


The key feature distinguishing this design from the more conservative upgrade preferred by the ship design offices was the upgunned pair of 127 mm light railgun batteries, which if adopted would be the first Legion Navy weapons of this caliber. The justification for this upgrade, Lord Admiral Pandia was quick to remark, was not so much a vain attempt to improve combat firepower, but rather to arm the frigates with weapons which could penetrate the thin armor typically seen on civilian and auxiliary vessels, in hopes of cripping enemy vessels and coercing quick surrenders by inflicting internal damage in the first volley of fire. To accomplish this upgunning, Lord Admiral Pandia proposed replacing the large missile warning array with the smaller onboard targeting system deployed on most other Legion Navy vessels. This was justified, in her view, by the fact that the command cruisers at the heart of every battle fleet would provide anti-missile sensor capability already, thus there was no need to duplicate this capability in a class of ships which were, after all, doctrinally optional. Otherwise, she emphasized, most of the other improvements in the previous Mark II proposal were maintained, including the increased armor thickness and fuel load.

As the ‘raider’ design in most respects hewed close to the previous proposal, quite accidentally, and as the Lords Admiral had expressed few great reservations about the latter, criticism of the former centered principally on the lack of anti-missile sensor capability. Lord Admiral Glycon Limos, commander of the Duratus Naval Corps, raised the point that removing anti-missile capability from the Bellerophons would make them much less flexible and valuable as attached squadron elements, whereas their current loadout would enable them to provide backup anti-missile sensor support in case of misfortune befalling the command cruiser of a battle fleet. Furthermore, refitting the existing Bellerophons to the proposed variant would leave the Legion Navy without any dedicated anti-missile sensor elements until the command cruisers were finally deployed, which would require several years to accomplish even with best estimates. Perhaps, the Lord Admiral suggested, the production of dedicated commerce raiders should wait at least until the rest of the fleet was properly equipped to support such an endeavor.

On the other hand, some among the Lords Admiral were less inclined to place so much value on the anti-missile capabilities of the Bellerophon class. Perhaps the most vocal proponent of this view was, predictably, Lord Admiral Niobe Chryson, who held that the improved 127 mm armament of the ‘Raider’ variant enabled the frigates to make a meaningful contribution in battle, something which had not been possible to date. While the previous session had established that the 102 mm railguns of the existing class made no serious contribution to fleet point defense, Lord Admiral Chryson went further and claimed that the long-range anti-missile sensor arrays had no appreciable impact either. While ostensibly the long range gave a battle fleet superior missile tracking and thus accuracy of defensive fire, in practice the nominal 10% or 12% improvement in accuracy had proven simply unnecessary - point defense work against the Belaire had never required the full weight of fire provided by the available destroyer squadrons - or else woefully insufficient to prevent heavy losses, as against the Mongolicans in the Battle of Gliese 1. Lord Admiral Chryson was eagerly supported in her claims by Lord High Admiral Hilaera Antilochus, who wisely left unspoken her obvious preference for this more specialized redesign which would preclude attempts by the Home Fleet Command to deploy its frigates on Survey Command types of missions.

While these and other points of debate were raised, ultimately few others of the Lords Admiral were particularly invested in the topic, with most having already made up their minds along the lines laid out by Lord Admiral Limos. As such, the discussion of the ‘Raider’ variant died down after not too much time, and Lord Admiral Criasus opened the floor for any other proposals. Taking this cue, Lord High Admiral Geras Makedon took center stage, presenting perhaps the most novel and unique proposal for a Legion warship yet seen throughout the Naval Conference to this point:

Off-Topic: Bellerophon Mk II Carrier class Frigate • show
Bellerophon Mk II ‘Carrier’ class Frigate      7,500 tons       184 Crew       1,066.8 BP       TCS 150    TH 750    EM 0
5000 km/s      Armour 4-34       Shields 0-0       HTK 41      Sensors 96/96/0/0      DCR 6      PPV 6
Maint Life 3.21 Years     MSP 533    AFR 75%    IFR 1.0%    1YR 78    5YR 1,167    Max Repair 187.5 MSP
Hangar Deck Capacity 500 tons     
Commander    Control Rating 2   BRG   AUX   
Intended Deployment Time: 12 months    Flight Crew Berths 40    Morale Check Required   

Hyperion Drive Yards H-375 Frigate Engine 'Gryphon' (2)    Power 750    Fuel Use 46.19%    Signature 375    Explosion 10%
Fuel Capacity 477,000 Litres    Range 24.8 billion km (57 days at full power)

Arcadia Weapons Systems 102 mm Defense Battery Mk III (2x4)    Range 30,000km     TS: 5,000 km/s     Power 3-3     RM 30,000 km    ROF 5       
Sangarius Systems Defense Battery Director Mk IV (1)     Max Range: 96,000 km   TS: 5,000 km/s
Chryson Dynamics 6 TW Induction Drive Cell Mk VI (1)     Total Power Output 6.2    Exp 5%

Scamander Corporation Series XVI Onboard Targeting System (1)     GPS 16     Range 6.4m km    MCR 574.5k km    Resolution 1
Scamander Corporation Series VIII RF Wave Array (1)     Sensitivity 96     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  77.5m km
Scamander Corporation Series VIII Infrared Array (1)     Sensitivity 96     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  77.5m km

Strike Group:
1x R-56 Recon Fighter
1x AR-56 Osprey Recon Fighter


The key feature of the design, immediately apparent to all present, was the pair of 250-ton capacity boat bays and associated reconnaissance fighter complement. While the concept of mounting a single boat bay for the purpose of carrying scout craft was not new in Legion Naval doctrine, doing so for such a small ship as a frigate was unheard of, let alone doubling the traditional carrying capacity. Further, to accommodate the reconnaissance wing, the large active sensor array traditionally mounted on the Bellerophon-class frigates had been removed entirely, in addition to reducing the missile warning array to a smaller onboard targeting system. By gutting the class’s innate active sensor capabilities, Lord High Admiral Makedon - with the assistance of his subordinate, Lord Admiral Pothos Aleus - had devised the first primary-carrier-role ship class in Legion Naval history. Perhaps acutely aware of his precarious standing in doing this, Lord High Admiral Makedon was quick to emphasize that this proposal was not necessarily meant to replace the Bellerophons as a mainline fleet scout frigate, but could perhaps be considered as an experimental proposal meriting a squadron’s worth of ships to be constructed as a proof of concept.

Criticism was immediate and harsh, perhaps even more so than would usually be expected for an “experimental” class proposal. Much fuss was made about the fact that the ‘Carrier’ variant had made even greater sacrifices of actual fleet scouting capability than the previous ‘Raider’ variant, which had already been roundly lambasted for such deficiencies. Lord Admiral Aleus was quick to counter this, arguing that the long-range active sensor capability was secondary compared to the passive sensor capability, since no Legion weapon system functioned at ranges beyond 200,000 km anyways. In cases where active detection against a target was necessary for any reason, the fighter loadout of the class would be adequate to accomplish the task. Most of the Lords Admiral did not find this line of reasoning persuasive, although Lord Admiral Pandia did note that a passive sensor-only scouting doctrine could be effective in a commerce-raiding role, though even she would have preferred to keep the flexibility of active detection capabilities as well.

In the realm of well-considered and specific criticisms, Lord Admiral Palaestra Abderus of the Mining Corps noted that the fuel loading of the ‘Carrier’ variant was quite bare. At a mere 35,000 liters increase over the original Bellerophon design, this variant would only have enough fuel to barely travel 20 billion km and refuel each of its parasite craft once from empty. Logistically, this seemed incredibly limiting compared to the extended range being proposed for other variants, which would allow a degree of independence while still supporting battle fleet operations. Lord High Admiral Makedon attempted to justify this by noting that the combined range of the frigate and AR-56 parasite came out to over 40 billion km, but even he was forced to concede that the R-56 passive scout lacked similar range and thus the overall package represented a significant dip in passive scouting capabilities, compared to the other variants under consideration.

Curiously, perhaps the most thought-provoking comment came from Lord Admiral Chryson, who observed that the AR-56 Osprey class of recon fighters possessed the same 20 billion km range as any other Legion Naval vessel, and thus raised the question of why an entire frigate with minimal combat utility was needed when a fleet of recon fighters could do the same job with much less fuss and far fewer catastrophic losses. This observation was followed by a period of uncomfortable silence, which was only resolved by Lord Admiral Criasus, who noted that while his colleague’s question held substantive merit for discussion, it would have properly been raised in that morning’s session, and thus the session would regrettably be forced to move on towards more relevant topics. Thus, the Lords Admiralty were once again saved from the introspective horror of feeling a bit silly about themselves by the minutiae of procedure.

This is not to say that no Lords Admiral were made to feel silly about themselves at another time during the session, as several designs were proposed by various members of the assembly which were clearly far-fetched and meant to primarily show off whatever passed for “creative thinking” among the Lords Admiralty rather than as serious proposals. An outlier all its own, however, was the rather perplexing suggestion of a ‘Deep Space’ variant made by Lord Admiral Limos:

Off-Topic: Bellerophon Mk II Deep Space Scout class Frigate • show
Bellerophon Mk II ‘Deep Space’ Scout class Frigate      7,500 tons       170 Crew       938.4 BP       TCS 150    TH 563    EM 0
3750 km/s      Armour 4-34       Shields 0-0       HTK 37      Sensors 96/96/0/0      DCR 6      PPV 6
Maint Life 3.72 Years     MSP 469    AFR 75%    IFR 1.0%    1YR 53    5YR 792    Max Repair 105 MSP
Commander    Control Rating 2   BRG   AUX   
Intended Deployment Time: 24 months    Morale Check Required   

X-280 Deep Space Scout Engine (2)    Power 562.5    Fuel Use 22.50%    Signature 281.25    Explosion 7%
Fuel Capacity 797,000 Litres    Range 85 billion km (262 days at full power)

Arcadia Weapons Systems 102 mm Defense Battery Mk III (2x4)    Range 30,000km     TS: 4,000 km/s     Power 3-3     RM 30,000 km    ROF 5       
Sangarius Systems Defense Battery Director Mk IV (1)     Max Range: 96,000 km   TS: 5,000 km/s
Chryson Dynamics 6 TW Induction Drive Cell Mk VI (1)     Total Power Output 6.2    Exp 5%

Scamander Corporation Series XVI Long-Range Array (1)     GPS 14400     Range 83.1m km    Resolution 150
Scamander Corporation Series XVI Onboard Targeting System (1)     GPS 16     Range 6.4m km    MCR 574.5k km    Resolution 1
Scamander Corporation Series VIII RF Wave Array (1)     Sensitivity 96     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  77.5m km
Scamander Corporation Series VIII Infrared Array (1)     Sensitivity 96     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  77.5m km


With a top speed of only 3,750 km/s and an incredible fuel range of 85 billion km, this design was clearly not intended as a mainline fleet scout, and Lord Admiral Limos stated as much upfront. Rather, this design was intended as a supplementary proposal once the refit or replacement of the mainline Bellerophons was completed. The ‘Deep Space’ variant would augment the Legion Navy’s capabilities by providing for deep space scouting and long-range patrol roles. As such, he explained, the standard H-375 ‘Gryphon’ engines would be replaced with a pair of high-efficiency engines allowing a substantial increase in range, and the anti-missile sensor capability would be reduced as the class would not be expected to operate in close connection with a battle fleet. The reader might be surprised to learn that, according to the Conference minutes, no substantive discussion of this proposal was held, in fact not even a cursory dismissal of the proposal was advanced. In hindsight, however, it is clear that Lord Admiral Limos’ actual intent with this proposal had been in large part to devise a class which could encroach into the mandate of the Survey Command, thus angering the hot-tempered Lord High Admiral Hilaera Antilochus. This goal was accomplished successfully, followed shortly by the additional accomplishment of once again justifying the presence of the Imperial Guard detachment in the Conference chamber.

Once the pair of would-be combatants had been escorted out of the chamber, Lord Admiral Criasus called the session back to order. As the hour was growing late, and the members of the assembly peckish, the next proposal to be presented was certain to mark the conclusion of the day’s events. This dubious honor fell to none other than Lord Admiral Niobe Chryson, who presented perhaps the most predictable replacement for the Bellerophons yet, given its author:

Off-Topic: Chryson Proposal class Scout Destroyer • show
Chryson Proposal class Scout Destroyer      10,000 tons       290 Crew       1,555.3 BP       TCS 200    TH 1,000    EM 0
5000 km/s      Armour 4-41       Shields 0-0       HTK 51      Sensors 96/96/0/0      DCR 8      PPV 24
Maint Life 2.96 Years     MSP 777    AFR 100%    IFR 1.4%    1YR 132    5YR 1,983    Max Repair 250 MSP
Commander    Control Rating 2   BRG   AUX   
Intended Deployment Time: 12 months    Morale Check Required   

Hyperion Drive Yards H-500 Destroyer Engine 'Cerberus' (2)    Power 1000    Fuel Use 40.0%    Signature 500    Explosion 10%
Fuel Capacity 527,000 Litres    Range 23.7 billion km (54 days at full power)

Arcadia Weapons Systems 102 mm Defense Battery Mk III (8x4)    Range 30,000km     TS: 5,000 km/s     Power 3-3     RM 30,000 km    ROF 5       
Sangarius Systems Defense Battery Director Mk IV (2)     Max Range: 96,000 km   TS: 5,000 km/s
Chryson Dynamics 12 TW Induction Drive Cell Mk VI (2)     Total Power Output 24.2    Exp 5%

Scamander Corporation Series XVI Long-Range Array (1)     GPS 14400     Range 83.1m km    Resolution 150
Scamander Corporation Series XVI Missile Warning Array (1)     GPS 96     Range 15.6m km    MCR 1.4m km    Resolution 1
Scamander Corporation Series VIII RF Wave Array (1)     Sensitivity 96     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  77.5m km
Scamander Corporation Series VIII Infrared Array (1)     Sensitivity 96     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  77.5m km


This was in fact a remarkably restrained presentation from the mercurial Lord Admiral. Indeed, the weapon batteries remained as 102 mm rather than the heavier 152 mm batteries one might have expected to see, and the hull type was merely destroyer-sized rather than cruiser-sized. The proposal even included a modest increase of 56,000 liters of fuel providing a useful range improvement for minor scouting missions.

Unfortunately, the Lords Admiral were not known for celebrating restraint. Both Lord Admiral Palaestra Abderus and Lord High Admiral Aeneas Chalcon, as experts on Legion industrial concerns, roundly criticized the heftier build cost of the ‘Chryson’ destroyer design, providing the same essential capacities as the ‘Standard’ Bellerophon Mk II design proposed by the ship design offices, but at a one-third markup accounting for additional armor, amenities, and point defense emplacements. The point defense capabilities were further criticized by Lord Admiral Aleus, who complained that the class tried to accomplish too much when purpose-built Charybdis-class destroyers had proven more than adequate in the fleet defense role. Lord Admiral Chryson tried to counter this criticism by noting that, as a reasonably capable destroyer-sized hull, her proposed design could easily fit into a typical destroyer squadron to provide sensor coverage, even on detached duties. This valiant attempt at a defense was soundly eviscerated by the assembly at large, which took severe issue with Lord Admiral Chryson’s apparent attempts to circumvent the doctrines being established at this very Naval Conference to suit her own preferences.

Notably, however, no real objections were raised to the concept of a destroyer-sized fleet scout equipped with adequate point defense batteries. Rather, the complaints were related principally to the design itself and its severe additional expense for minimal gains over the better proposals for Bellerophon Mk II variants. Additionally, Lord Admiral Abderus noted that the frigate-sized proposals had shown better fuel performance and total range, a clear advantage over the overwrought destroyer-sized class. Finally, Lord High Admiral Chalcon stated for the record that the proposed hull type would not be compatible with the same shipyard as the Charybdis class or a similar future variant, owing to the hefty cost of the sensor suite, and that even if compatibility were not an issue, yard space would be as destroyer hulls were easily the most in-demand hull type for the Legion Navy at that time given the ubiquitous need for heavy point defense capabilities on all fronts.

With Lord Admiral Chryson left to feel silly about herself, or perhaps more likely to glower in a corner plotting some measure of revenge, the Speaker of the Assembly called for motions put to a vote so the session might reach its conclusion. The votes proceeded at an unsurprisingly quick pace, given the hour of day and the desire of the Conference attendees to satisfy their appetites after such a long, hard day of work. The results are briefly summarized below:
  • The ‘Standard Upgrade’ Mk II variant, as proposed by the ship design staff and supported by Lord Grand Admiral Argyron and Lord High Admiral Macaria, was accepted as the primary replacement for the Bellerophon class by a vote of 12 to 2, with Lords Admiral Chryson and Pandia dissenting.
  • In a divisive decision, the ‘Raider’ Mk II variant, proposed by Lord Admiral Pandia, was accepted on a trial basis, to form a separate squadron of standard 3+1 composition, the ships of which would be constructed only once the entire existing Bellerophon roster had been refitted to Mk II standards. The vote passed in a confusing manner, with one vote (Lord Admiral Pandia) in favor of immediate construction, 6 votes in favor of the given result, 5 votes dissenting, and two members abstaining.
  • The ‘Carrier’ Mk II variant was rejected entirely in a 12-2 decision, with Lord High Admiral Makedon and Lord Admiral Aleus the sole supporters.
  • Various proposals taken less seriously, including Lord Admiral Limos’ ‘Deep Space’ variant, were not considered for a vote, over occasional objections.
  • The ‘Chryson’ destroyer-size proposal was officially “Not Accepted”, with Lord Admiral Chryson voting in favor of acceptance, 5 Lords Admiral voting for outright rejection, and the remainder voting for the less-harsh measure of non-acceptance. Notably, this indicated that at least some members of the assembly considered the use of larger hull types for fleet scouts a worthwhile future consideration, but the current design was at this time clearly considered unworkable.
With this, the fifth day of the Naval Conference came to a close, leaving only three more sessions before the official closing statements in which to finish the comprehensive redesign of the Legion Navy.

----

OOC Notes: And thus, the fleet scout question is resolved. Mostly. And has been overcomplicated with a second variant. Some doors have been slammed shut, but one door has been left wide open - and at some point in time we can only expect that the question of independent recon fighters will be revisited with interest. Really, we could not expect anything else from this bunch of Lords Admiral, I think.

Next up will be the session on Miscellaneous Business, truly a wildcard meeting in which anything might happen! Or at least it will not be more shipchat™, we will have that going for us at least. Given the current rate of posting I think we can be optimistic about hearing this part of the story sooner than later. Maybe. Perhaps. It is not impossible. At any rate, with only three sessions left plus the closing remarks, there is perhaps some light now at the end of the tunnel? We shall see.

15
General C# Fiction / Re: The Official Chronicle of the Duranium Legion
« Last post by nuclearslurpee on June 30, 2022, 10:58:22 PM »
<!< Whats this?! This is far to quick! Next you'll tell me you'll update again before 2023! Far to fast!
XD

I apologize, for I am about to continue to disappoint you.  ;)


Hurrah! Good old Pandia bringing some sense to proceedings.

Someone has to, and the other thirteen are too far gone to be trusted with the task - is what Lord Admiral Pandia would tell you at the pub while she drowns her work-related sorrows.

Quote
As a matter of doctrine Antilochus is probably correct, as mentioned later the Legion just charge as fast as they can at the objective and then shoot the enemy point blank in the face. They are not ones for subtlety or grand manoeuvrers, they are the IJA and not the IJN in this metaphor. Long range sensors may be nice to have, they would certainly make clearing up later easier, but they are not actually needed by the battle fleet.

Ah, but without sensors, how would we find enemy fleets to charge straight at? Assaulting jump points is one way and certainly a popular one, hence reducing the scout frigates to an optiona squadron attachment rather than mandatory, but it is not enough on its own.

Quote
Cowards.

Indeed.

Quote
the idea of doing statistical analysis and assessment seems very contradictory to the "Fly closer so I can shoot them in the face" doctrine of the Legion.

It is important to have some way to know who is the very best at shooting them in the face, for promotion purposes. The implications of this statement are left as an exercise for the reader.

----

On this note, let us return to our intrepid heroes characters and see if any of them might score some promotion points, for another update is nigh upon us.
16
New Cold War / Cold War: Month 208, Widespread Events
« Last post by Kurt on June 30, 2022, 10:09:08 AM »
Month 208, Day 25, Confederation of Free States (Union-Alliance buffer state)
An Alliance courier arrived over the Confederation capital on this date, with urgent messages for the Alliance Ambassador to the Colonial Union, who happened to be Rehorish.  These messages informed the Ambassador of the Colonial Union’s incursion into Alliance space, and the Rehorish and T’Pau suspicion that the incursion was in response to provocation by the D’Bringi.  Finally, the directed the Ambassador to establish negotiations with the Colonial Union to determine the extent of the situation and to attempt to determine a peaceful resolution. 

The T’Pau and the Rehorish had been united in this situation.  While there were some who still wanted to finish the last war with the Colonial Union, particularly in some quarters of the Rehorish government, literally no one thought it was a good idea right now, with the Alliance divided and their communications network in pieces. 

The Rehorish Ambassador immediately sent a communique to the Union Embassy requesting an immediate meeting with the Union Ambassador.  Disappointingly, he was told that he would have to wait for an opening in the Ambassador’s schedule.  Frustrated, the Rehorish Ambassador sent a second message emphasizing the urgency of the situation, only to receive no response. 

Month 208, Day 26, Rehorish Prime
Skull-Splitter’s cruiser was met as it entered the inner system by a Rehorish heavy cruiser group, escorted by a pair of light carriers and three light cruisers.  The Rehorish ships fell into formation with the D’Bringi ship, which then received a request for a visit from Tai-shu Okada.  Skull-splitter quickly granted it, and in within minutes they were face to face. 

“I fear that your mission in the Kawasaki system did not go well?”

Skull-Splitter, as always, in his combat armor but without the helmet, shook his head.  “It did not, old friend.  My presence caused a schism within the fleet that led to fighting almost immediately.”  He raised a hand at Okada’s evident alarm.  “I was able to stop it before it got out of hand, largely because no matter the outcome they believed they would remain trapped within the Kawasaki system.  I suspect that forces loyal to me could have won that fight, but it would have been very bloody, and not worth the fight in the end, so I made them agree to a cease fire in place.  Your picket has agreed to allow our two most damaged ships to proceed into your system for repairs.  I’m sure you have already seen that report.”

“I have.  I fear this means you will not have enough strength to penetrate the defenses of your home world.  Likely you would meet this same situation with any group of D’Bringi ships you approached.”

Skull-Splitter gestured agreement.  “You are right, I fear.  However, my son has suggested a different way.”  He gestured Okada over to the side of the room, where floating hologram showed a warp map of the area surrounding the Rehorish home system, out to three jumps.  One system, the Aomori system, was blinking. 

Okada took in the display.  “Aomori?  If I remember correctly, we both have a colony there.”

Skull-Splitter gestured assent.  “Correct.  While the Aomori system was originally settled by your race, under the founding Alliance treaties the second planet was granted to us for colonization, as it was largely unusable to either you or the T’Pau.  Our colony there has also gone over to the usurper, and is the closest D’Bringi colony to have done so.  My son has suggested that we investigate the situation there more closely.”

Okada’s antennae twitched as he considered the holo display.  “For what purpose?”

“My son believes, and I agree, that the usurper’s control of his ‘loyalist’ colonies is paper-thin.  More a fiction than anything else.  It is clear now that military force will not be the only answer to this situation.  We must consider more avenues to advance our cause than just fighting the usurper ship-to-ship in a glorious battle.”

Intrigued, Okada considered the old D’Bringi leader and realized that the other was actually enthused about this approach.  “What makes you believe this?”

“The usurper is making constant appeals to the general D’Bringi population to support his cause.  You’ve seen the messages being sent from the home world.  He is constantly making appeals to the people to remember the glories of the past, and promising to bring them back.  What my son pointed out was that those messages only connect with a relatively small percentage of the population.  The ‘old days’ were really only glorious for a very small percentage of the population, basically the middle and upper tiers of our great clans.  For everyone else, every day under the old order was just another day of servitude.  I and the other clan chiefs had long been aware that our old ways had to change, that oppressing three quarters of our population would have no good end.  The conquests of our early interstellar expansion hid these inequities and divisions within our system very well, at least for a time.  In the end, though, I and the other clan chiefs knew our time was limited.  There was too much pressure from below, too many who were disenfranchised, for our system to be truly stable.  That was why we embraced the changes that came with amalgamation.  It gave us a chance to enact sweeping changes throughout our nation, freeing up the bulk of our population to become productive members of society.  The changes wrought by this over the last few years have been dramatic, and welcome.  Truly, the only ones that want the old days to come back are a relatively small number of older D’Bringi who were privileged under the old order, and some young clan toughs who miss the opportunities the old order brought for glory and advancement.  That’s why so many of the smaller colonies scattered around the Alliance have rejected the new government.  They are composed of independent D’Bringi from the former lower orders or who were clan-less, and who want to make a new start free of the old ways.  Most importantly, I’m willing to bet that there are many on the colonies that supposedly support the usurper that don’t want the old days to come back, and are willing to fight to make that happen.  Perhaps they are already fighting.  With the state of the ICN we’d have no way of knowing.  I want to find out first hand, and the closest colony is in Sasebo.  And one jump beyond that is another colony in Aomori.  Between the two they should give me a pretty good idea of the state of this ‘empire’ that the usurper has declared.”

Tai-shu Okada sat silently for a few seconds, contemplating the map.  After a minute or so he stirred.  “Can you widen this map out?” 

Skull-Splitter gestured, and the map widened out to encompass the entire Core Sector of the Alliance. 

Okada got to his feet and gestured at the map.  “Now that secure communications have been restored with the T’Pau, my government and theirs have come to a decision.  While we cannot justify direct action against the D’Bringi, yet, it is clear that the Alliance itself is in dire danger.  The new D’Bringi government may not have intended to cause this much disruption, but whether it intended it or not, we must act.  Therefore, we are going to take the following actions.  First, our new couriers are going to fan out across the Alliance, destroying every node of the old ICN, and conveying orders to the local governments to purge their ground-based ICN systems and dismantle them.  Secondly, new ICN buoys will be constructed, with safeguards to reduce the possibility of corruption.  These will be emplaced along critical pathways to restore essential communications.”

When Okada paused, Skull-Splitter jumped in.  “This is wise.  The false emperor controls the Alliance communications network, whether or not you can prove it.  You took the first step by isolating yourself and establishing an alternate network, but that wasn’t enough.  After all, the false emperor still has the advantage of the Alliance-wide ICN.  By destroying it, and replacing it with your own, you will be depriving him of an advantage and gaining one of your own.”  Skull-Splitter paused, then continued.  “I assume you will not be connecting D’Bringi colonies to your new network?”

“We will not, at least not as yet.  Perhaps that can change, depending on the outcome of your mission to Aomori.”  Okada stopped, considered something briefly, then continued.  “I’ll be honest with you, in light of your previous service to the Alliance.”  Okada gestured at the map.  “This is only the first step.  While combined governments of the T’Pau and Rehorish have not yet decided upon the status of the D’Bringi, or a final solution to this conflict, we have decided that we will give tacit support to D’Bringi forces that oppose what my government, and that of the T’Pau, are calling the “illegitimate D’Bringi government”, imposed by force upon the D’Bringi people.  At least, they’ll be using that term internally, for now.  If left unchecked, this will be resolved by military force, however, we will gladly take any reasonable alternative offered.   Give us that alternative, and we can move forward.  In the meantime, couriers are being dispatched to the 3rd, 4th, and 6th Fleets, with new orders.  The 3rd Fleet will be ordered to withdraw from the Kure system, leaving only scouts, and proceed to the Kawasaki system, where it will intern all D’Bringi ships located there until their status can be negotiated with the D’Bringi government, whatever that may eventually be.  Once that is complete, they will join the 1st Fleet here in the Rehorish home system.  The 4th Fleet will proceed to the Chruqua Warp Nexus and secure that critical system for the Alliance.  All ships transiting the system will be searched for contraband.  No D’Bringi ships will be allowed to transit without authorization.  The 6th Fleet will be given orders similar to those sent to the 3rd Fleet.  They will intern any D’Bringi ships still in the Villiers system, then proceed to the Stahat system, where they will await further orders.  From there they can respond to any further Colonial Union incursions, if there are indeed any at all, or deal with D’Bringi subversion.  They will have similar orders as the 4th Fleet.  All D’Bringi warships to be interned, and all civilian ships are to be searched.  We don’t know what has been going on in our own territory, but that will end.  We will exert control within the Alliance, and we will re-establish our ability to gather information within our own borders.  In the meantime, communiques will be sent to the Associate Members, warning them of the instability within the Alliance, and asking them to remain within their own territories until this situation is resolved.”

Skull-Splitter remained motionless as he took this in.  Finally, he stirred.  “I would wish to resolve this without bloodshed.”

Okada gestured in negation.  “I’m afraid that you know as well as I that this is not likely, or even possible.  In reality, the question will remain, how much blood must we shed to contain and resolve the situation, to avoid even greater bloodshed?  Much depends on you, old friend.  Find a way that avoids all-out war with the D’Bringi Empire, and I will convince my government to take it.  In the meantime, I offer the use of one of our new couriers, which will allow you to travel much faster than you would be able to in your flagship.”

Skull-Splitter looked relieved.   “Very well.  I will leave for Sasebo within the hour.  Thank you.”

Before the D’Bringi leader could leave, Okada stopped him.  “You must offer your people an alternative, if they are to come together to oppose the one you call the usurper.  You are the last of the senior clan chiefs, and the last of the senior leaders of the D’Bringi left alive.  Whether you declare a new D’Bringi state, or the continuation of the old one is up to you, but you must give your people something to rally around.  And that begins with you.”

Skull-Splitter looked thoughtful as he escorted the Rehorish admiral to his shuttle.  There was much to consider. 

Even as Skull-Splitter set out for Sasebo, courier ships were leaving Rehorish Prime and T’Pau Prime, headed out across the Alliance, ordered to destroy the old ICN network to clear the way for the new comm system. 

Month 208, Day 27, Alliance Theom System (adjacent to occupied Dether system)
The Imperial D’Bringi Fleet, recently dispatched from the Stahat system, arrives at the warp point in the Theom system that leads to the human-occupied Dether system.  Once there it joins with the D’Bringi ships that were withdrawn from the 6th Fleet upon the announcement of the change in D’Bringi government.  These ships are still technically assigned to the Alliance, and while their officers and crews have no particular loyalty to the new government, neither do they have a reason to oppose it. 

6th Fleet D’Bringi Ships:
6xBC, 6xCA, 3xCVS, 11xCVE, 3xCTV, 276xF0

Imperial D’Bringi Ships:
3xBC, 3xCA, 3xCVS, 3xCVE, 17xCTV, 195xF0, 18xF1

For now, the D’Bringi ships appear to be content to sit on the warp point, blocking the Union fleet’s route of advancement into the Far Frontier sector.  For now, just a few corvette-carriers were deployed to the far side of the warp point to keep watch in the Dether system. 

Month 208, Day 28, Alliance Caris system
The Caris system is located in the Far Frontier Sector, two jumps from the Sector Capital in the Stahat system.  Caris has two habitable type ST planets, both colonized by the D’Bringi some time ago.  Both have small, but growing, populations, and both soundly rejected the Imperial D’Bringi call for unity and loyalty to the new government.  The colonists were almost uniformly from the former clan-less of D’Bringi society, and so had been disenfranchised under the old order.  They had no wish to return to that state, and so the few Imperial agitators that had popped up after the coup had been dealt with, sometimes harshly, and then life went on.  Until now. 

On this day, several freighters landed on each of the colonies.  Instead of carrying supplies, though, they were transporting troops in Imperial uniforms.  These troops immediately fanned out, seizing key installations and critical infrastructure, and within hours the colonial governments were under their control.  The invasion was mostly bloodless, as the colonies had been caught entirely off guard.  That would change, though.  After the capital cities were under control, and the troops had fanned out to gain control of the smaller towns that dotted the surface of both planets, Imperial Security troops disembarked from the transports and assumed control of the capital cities from the combat units.  Once in control, the security units began the executions.  They had a long list, and they were determined to work their way through the entire list, to ensure that their lesson was learned. 

Month 208, Day 30, Union-Controlled Dether system
On this date a Colonial Union ground force arrived in the Dether system.  This was what Admiral Carstairs had been waiting for.  With the troops in hand, or nearly in hand, she reopened communications with the Alliance colonial governors on the three colonies in the inner system.  So far, they had been uncommunicative and uncooperative.  They knew she wouldn’t bombard them, and without troops couldn’t invade them, and so had no way to enforce her will.  Now, though, the equation had changed. 

As the transports departed the warp point bound for the inner system, she re-opened communications with the colonial governments, informing them that Union troops were approaching and would soon begin landing operations. 

That news, confirmed by their own sensors, motivated the governors to respond, and resulted in some intense negotiations.  Admiral Carstairs held all the cards, but the Alliance governors were fairly sure by this point that she wanted to avoid unnecessary bloodshed, which was true.  Although her orders from Fleet HQ directed her to establish control of the system, and to destroy any resistance, she was loath to just begin indiscriminately shooting everyone in her way.  Based on her experience, responding to raids into the Union that killed hundreds by raiding into the Alliance and killing thousands would only exacerbate the situation.  She was still hoping a diplomatic solution could be found, although based on what little information was making it all the way out here nothing had been heard from the Senatorial embassy to the Alliance since it arrived in the Confederation some time ago.  It was possible that the information from the embassy mission was compartmentalized, but she had a bad feeling about that. 

In the end, knowing that they had little choice, the Alliance governors agreed to surrender their colonies to Union control.  However, they extracted a promise from Admiral Carstairs that in exchange for not opposing her landings or occupation, she would limit her troops to the spaceports close to the capital cities and the areas surrounding them.  Additionally, the governors promised to turn over the goods that would normally be shipped to the Alliance to the Union.  Carstairs had found that imminently acceptable, as it avoided all bloodshed, at least for now.  For her part, she limited her landings to the immediate area around the spaceports and capital cities, and, so long as the locals behaved themselves, limited her troops to disarming the local militia and observing the activities of the locals. 
17
C# Suggestions / Re: Food
« Last post by Jorgen_CAB on June 30, 2022, 09:59:41 AM »
I would disagree a little there, Jorgen. Many Earth nations have developed well despite not being self-sufficient. Just to give three examples of high-tech & rich countries that absolutely could not feed their existing populations without food imports: Finland, the UK and Japan. Similarly, very few countries are truly self-sufficient when it comes to natural resources - we don't even have to go for rare earth minerals as even more mundane minerals cannot be found everywhere and have been traded for centuries. Sure, many countries have implemented methods (tariffs/subsidies) to protect their domestic food production to maintain some local capability but it's not like it's enough to feed the population, it's more to placate local populace.

Similarly, I disagree with Migi that low-value bulk goods would be transported through space. Of course, in the real world that makes no sense because the cost of KG from Earth surface to orbit is exorbitant and will probably be prohibitive for that sort of trading for decades if not centuries to come. But just like 17th century galleons couldn't transport low-value bulk goods in numbers enough and fast enough to make it economical, modern bulk carriers can and do. And in Aurora, the miracle of TN-tech means that launch costs and transportation costs are negligible, to a large extent.

Combined, this means that in Aurora economy, it very well might be entirely feasible for certain planets to export gigantic amounts of food stuff - not just rare delicacies - to other planets where food production is more difficult/expensive. Just like the current trade goods seem to include low-value bulk goods. But adding food currently is not beneficial on its own, it should be part of a larger economic overhaul of the system. Maybe for version 3.0!

I don't think I meant that every little country is in any way 100% self sufficient in every category that is obviously not possible depending on where that country is, especially in natural resources. In many cases you have to view societies in areas or regions rather than countries. A small country with only a million people for example can't possibly have a viable industry in every sector, trade is therefore very important, food today is just one industry among many.

What is meant is that any society will try to be as self sufficient in every area of industry as possible as this enhances the industrial versatility, innovation and wealth of the nation as a whole. In some cases you have to look not at just countries but at regions or collective economical areas.

When it comes to food there is also a very large difference between bare minimum for a society to survive and the wealth of luxury food that we consume, especially in wealthy nations. When we talk about entire planets resources and needs you would need to secure enough basic goods for survival, relying on imported base goods is very dangerous, that is why having a larger trade deficit in certain areas can be very dangerous, especially food. It is one thing to trade in order to secure variety another to be completely reliant on it, which happens and also objectively had serious consequences in history, ancient Rome is a good example.
Also... when you look at food trade for example allot of it is food that we don't need, luxury products, things that can be replaced by more basic products if really needed. We can all drink just water instead of Coca Cola for example.

Countries that have over time been successful and developed their economy have generally been those with a high degree of dynamic industry, not the ones that relied on producing one thing or rely on natural resources only, that generally only produce inequality and wealth for a few and not the society as a whole. You need to spread the wealth in order to have real sustainable growth and productivity in a society.

It obviously does not mean that most societies have above average proficiency in some areas and less in other, that is just natural. But trade will not only be for natural resources but also to distribute a wealth of choice. No one like to buy just one and the same pair of clothes, car or food, you want variety.
18
C# Suggestions / Re: Food
« Last post by Froggiest1982 on June 30, 2022, 12:13:49 AM »
To be entirely honest, I would welcome the ability for "Player Controlled" freighters to move trade goods.

This could potentially open to more interesting outcomes.

Eventually, to avoid micromanagement, a flag for the Colony Ships or Freighters to be "automated" and act like they were civilian fleets, would also be a nice QOL feature and a nice addition.
19
C# Suggestions / Re: Food
« Last post by nuclearslurpee on June 29, 2022, 10:45:38 PM »
From a gameplay perspective, I would not welcome the added micromanagement of balancing low-value good shipments like food, regardless of possible lore justifications. IMO, if we're going to add a more complex economic model, we need the automation tools to handle it (and more importantly for the NPRs to handle it!) at empire scale. Particularly in multi-player-race games as for these especially it is critical to minimize the amount of repetitive tedium when it is multiplied by the number of player races.
20
C# Suggestions / Re: Food
« Last post by Garfunkel on June 29, 2022, 09:18:21 PM »
I would disagree a little there, Jorgen. Many Earth nations have developed well despite not being self-sufficient. Just to give three examples of high-tech & rich countries that absolutely could not feed their existing populations without food imports: Finland, the UK and Japan. Similarly, very few countries are truly self-sufficient when it comes to natural resources - we don't even have to go for rare earth minerals as even more mundane minerals cannot be found everywhere and have been traded for centuries. Sure, many countries have implemented methods (tariffs/subsidies) to protect their domestic food production to maintain some local capability but it's not like it's enough to feed the population, it's more to placate local populace.

Similarly, I disagree with Migi that low-value bulk goods would be transported through space. Of course, in the real world that makes no sense because the cost of KG from Earth surface to orbit is exorbitant and will probably be prohibitive for that sort of trading for decades if not centuries to come. But just like 17th century galleons couldn't transport low-value bulk goods in numbers enough and fast enough to make it economical, modern bulk carriers can and do. And in Aurora, the miracle of TN-tech means that launch costs and transportation costs are negligible, to a large extent.

Combined, this means that in Aurora economy, it very well might be entirely feasible for certain planets to export gigantic amounts of food stuff - not just rare delicacies - to other planets where food production is more difficult/expensive. Just like the current trade goods seem to include low-value bulk goods. But adding food currently is not beneficial on its own, it should be part of a larger economic overhaul of the system. Maybe for version 3.0!
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 ... 10
SMF spam blocked by CleanTalk