Author Topic: What's Going On In Your Empire: C# Edition  (Read 70260 times)

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Offline Vandermeer

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Re: What's Going On In Your Empire: C# Edition
« Reply #300 on: January 12, 2023, 10:59:31 AM »
I think I can finally conclude this one:

[...]
All is not lost however. The magazines are a flaw, and if I have learned anything in VB Aurora, then that the moon is made of cheese, so next I will test this:
1 Strip the expensive magazine components, so that max-repair comes down to 16MSP.
2 Then the Dockyard will sit at the moon without support, so it will deteriorate.
3 Since there can't be more components breaking than 1 at once, there will never be a higher MSP order than 16 per 5days.
4 Whatever the life clock says is irrelevant at that point. If it still says 1 year, good sir, I must correct you, for 11640MSP/16 = 727 '5days', also known under his snazzy artist's name '10years'.
5 Hangars still operate normally, thus 400k fleet support + repair and overhaul for the low low price of ~20MSP a week. 8)


Well, I will test it. I confirmed this worked in VB Aurora, because my Star Swarm/Caravan race game was built on this strategy where the huge 10mt mothership could last 70 or perhaps over 100 years without refill or something. It all depended on whether saving MSP through docking was possible at all. I already confirmed it wasn't working using civil hangars, so my morale was low. ..But since savings appear for military hangars now, chances are high this goes through after all.
Let's see if there is a god out there that will stop me.

I built a different version of those dockyards, and even though there is a component failure on each of them every construction interval, the numbers are as such:


That is around 20% of MSP storage lost after 25 years without any refill. Given that there is some initial fairweather period, that makes these dockyards last for around 120 years instead of the 5.5 that their design letter promotes.
This is also interesting because I could not suppress the max-repair below 100 as I initially planned, and what I did in VB-Aurora. It was some time ago, but I think the military hangars are now 100MSP to repair, so there is no way past this. Yet, interestingly the 5 day cost actually still come as the ~17MSP that were planned.

So the test is a positive. The old cheese tactic still works in C#, although you have to use off-base military hangars instead of planetary ones now. That makes the setup more difficult to achieve, because firstly, only planets with moons can really deploy this. (or perhaps you are fine with having your fleet harbor/base at some distance location to begin with, in which case this is fine)
Secondly, of course, building such a large military shipyard is quite difficult and more of a mid-game thing unless you push it strongly like I did here. You can start with smaller ones, but of course, the more you have, the more MSP are consumed, because maintenance is per unit for this setup, not per mass.
Even with only a simple one that can store the costly parasite garrison however, one can already save a lot without needing too large a hangar and subsequent shipyard, so that would be a compromise.

All in all, it is still easy enough to do to become my standard tactic, because otherwise maintenance costs are killing the usual 'large ship'(tm) playstyle that I followed in VB. On top, C# makes organizing the hangars much easier. Easy to launch and land, and very sightly:
playing Aurora as swarm fleet: Zen Nomadic Hive Fantasy
 

Offline Jorgen_CAB

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Re: What's Going On In Your Empire: C# Edition
« Reply #301 on: January 12, 2023, 07:56:41 PM »
To be honest this is a complete abuse of the machanic and you would be just easier to SM in orbital maintenance facilities and dump a few million MSP on a moon and call is a mothball station. Much simpler and you would not go insane from the maintenance failure messages.

Hangars does not have maintenance failures the same as a few other components, so in this instance only the magazines do... You could probably get away with an armoured 50t magazine and get even less MSP cost. This magazine have the 1 HTK needed so maintenance failures does not cascade through the station as that is the only module that get failures... more or less.

I don't see abusing the mechanic is any better than just using SM and produce the same results in a different way just simpler. You could build those orbital maintenance facilities on the moon and just spawn all the MSP you would ever need to station ships there.... or build the hangar base and then spawn the maintenance needed to remove the failures... the MSP would be free anyway in this case. You then just role play that the station is free of maintenance.
 

Offline Vandermeer

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Re: What's Going On In Your Empire: C# Edition
« Reply #302 on: January 14, 2023, 04:12:18 AM »
To be honest this is a complete abuse of the machanic and you would be just easier to SM in orbital maintenance facilities and dump a few million MSP on a moon and call is a mothball station. Much simpler and you would not go insane from the maintenance failure messages.
I blocked those after the third dockyard, but yes, in C# you can't do this without maintenance spam, which is a new downside. (or you just have to build a single really big one)
By calling it cheese, I think I already expressed that I realize that this is mechanic abuse, but there is still a big difference in straightforward cheating and just using exploits that the system allows to get the game you want. I have seen some don't understand that difference emotionally, but that is ok. If you have ever seen Youtube channels like Spiffing Brit though, you will know that there is a special joy for many to be able to manipulate within the rules, though I also don't claim to understand why that is so much more fun.

Quote
Hangars does not have maintenance failures the same as a few other components, so in this instance only the magazines do...
Actually, it is the sensors. The dockyard design doesn't even have any magazines.

Quote
You could probably get away with an armoured 50t magazine and get even less MSP cost. This magazine have the 1 HTK needed so maintenance failures does not cascade through the station as that is the only module that get failures... more or less.
I must say I have never noticed magazines breaking, not in VB nor C#, so I am not sure this works. It would be similarly troublesome to handle as hangars after all, since these are filled which causes a slew of follow up questions upon failure of what to do with the insides.
But maybe they do, I just can't recall any incident.

Anyway, installing magazines would not be an upgrade. Small sensors (could actually be smaller than the size-1 used here) are already the cheapest maintenance option, as proven by real practice in VB.

///Edit:
I don't see abusing the mechanic is any better than just using SM and produce the same results in a different way just simpler. You could build those orbital maintenance facilities on the moon and just spawn all the MSP you would ever need to station ships there.... or build the hangar base and then spawn the maintenance needed to remove the failures... the MSP would be free anyway in this case. You then just role play that the station is free of maintenance.
Again on this, because I remembered a VB argument from 8 years ago about this: You can also see this as an alternative mode of maintenance payment, since contrary to cheating, all this dockyard setup by far doesn't come for free. You pay for the dockyards to be built and much more you pay for their huge shipyards to be built. The shipyards employ millions of workers constantly, even when they don't actually produce, which is 90+% of the time in this case.
So you could argue in RP this was just an investment in some sort of bigger recycling or sourcing facility that manages to work in near autarky. Perhaps they fish the little TN elements they need out of dust or crumpet sized asteroids that aren't viable for industrial mining or something.
Point is, this is an expensive setup, but the large front cost lead to an industry that doesn't need to consume much in the longer run. I think even in VB I once calculated that the break-even point was only decades into usage. Now we also have millions of population doing work to hold all this up.

Far from simply cheating it in as you suggest, even though this was clearly not intended.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2023, 04:24:14 AM by Vandermeer »
playing Aurora as swarm fleet: Zen Nomadic Hive Fantasy
 
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Offline Jorgen_CAB

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Re: What's Going On In Your Empire: C# Edition
« Reply #303 on: January 14, 2023, 06:51:21 AM »
Again on this, because I remembered a VB argument from 8 years ago about this: You can also see this as an alternative mode of maintenance payment, since contrary to cheating, all this dockyard setup by far doesn't come for free. You pay for the dockyards to be built and much more you pay for their huge shipyards to be built. The shipyards employ millions of workers constantly, even when they don't actually produce, which is 90+% of the time in this case.
So you could argue in RP this was just an investment in some sort of bigger recycling or sourcing facility that manages to work in near autarky. Perhaps they fish the little TN elements they need out of dust or crumpet sized asteroids that aren't viable for industrial mining or something.
Point is, this is an expensive setup, but the large front cost lead to an industry that doesn't need to consume much in the longer run. I think even in VB I once calculated that the break-even point was only decades into usage. Now we also have millions of population doing work to hold all this up.

Far from simply cheating it in as you suggest, even though this was clearly not intended.

I was not really saying abusing the mechanic in a negative way... I understand this is role play and I see no difference in SM or just house ruling stuff in general... it is the same thing to me.

What I meant was that there is an easier way to do this and ignoring the maintenance messages. You can build the hangar stations normally and tractor them to a moon... you then SM in the orbital maintenance facilities (requires no population) and all the MSP you would ever need to stop the station from ever causing a maintenance facility. From an RP perspective those orbital maintenance facilities or MSP is not even there... these are just to sidestep the mechanics for the sake of RP.

In Aurora there is no difference in using SM or abusing loopholes in the mechanics... there are many loopholes you can abuse in Aurora if you wish. Many people probably do the reverse and add additional rules for the sake of role play AND use SM for some stuff at the same time. I know because I do that all the time.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2023, 06:54:07 AM by Jorgen_CAB »
 

Offline gamemonger56

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Re: What's Going On In Your Empire: C# Edition
« Reply #304 on: January 14, 2023, 07:06:37 PM »
Im finding that the universe my favorite terran consensus inhabits is sadly lacking in habitable planets, minerals and excitement.  Admittedly i understand excitement to be a BAD thing in a space exploitation game, but still.

the closest system for minerals is 4 jumps away, just explored my 8th system, which consists of 10 comets and a star.  yay!

the standing orders are shaky, because i set them to end of deployment head to entry jump point and the survey ships go "huh?"
 

Offline nuclearslurpee

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Re: What's Going On In Your Empire: C# Edition
« Reply #305 on: January 14, 2023, 07:14:46 PM »
Im finding that the universe my favorite terran consensus inhabits is sadly lacking in habitable planets, minerals and excitement.  Admittedly i understand excitement to be a BAD thing in a space exploitation game, but still.

the closest system for minerals is 4 jumps away, just explored my 8th system, which consists of 10 comets and a star.  yay!

the standing orders are shaky, because i set them to end of deployment head to entry jump point and the survey ships go "huh?"

The Real Stars setting tends to create galaxies like this, because of the large number of red dwarves and smaller stars which are unlikely to produce habitable planets, compared to random stars which is a more even distribution (but currently broken :sob:).  To partially compensate, I usually set Sol to have at least four jump points at game start, so that there are more avenues of exploration and thus a higher chance to find Alpha Centauri systems with habitable worlds within 25 light years.
 

Offline gamemonger56

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Re: What's Going On In Your Empire: C# Edition
« Reply #306 on: January 15, 2023, 04:11:46 PM »
woops! interrupted alien meet and greet with my scouts.  hightailed it outa there, problem is 1i tend to research for a long time before i start building warships.  I have 10 DDs in the yard with 2 years still to build.

here's hoping i broke contact quick enough.  they are 7 systems down the chain, and i never got around to stabilising the JPs that far down either.

welp, the alieans have jump drives. a ship just popped out of the JP scaring my pickets.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2023, 04:38:59 PM by gamemonger56 »
 

Offline gamemonger56

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Re: What's Going On In Your Empire: C# Edition
« Reply #307 on: January 15, 2023, 04:44:59 PM »
and they just blew up a scout. gotta go.
 

Offline gamemonger56

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Re: What's Going On In Your Empire: C# Edition
« Reply #308 on: January 15, 2023, 07:04:57 PM »

my diplomat corps seems to be dealing with the aliens pretty well, DR is -137 down from  -200 or so. well have to see. the 1st squadron of DDs are deployed, second should be coming soon. Light cruiser is designed but I wont be able to lay keels for a few years yet, what with increasing shipyard cap.

started colonizing a planet a few systems over with the intent of making it a sector HQ. towed 2 each of the shipyards there, working on those and the colonists are building factories etc.
 

Offline Andrew

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Re: What's Going On In Your Empire: C# Edition
« Reply #309 on: January 16, 2023, 05:03:03 AM »
The DR is your opinion of them and does not necessarily mirror their opinion of you
 

Offline sneer

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Re: What's Going On In Your Empire: C# Edition
« Reply #310 on: January 16, 2023, 05:32:11 AM »
Space is big
You have your time :)
 

Offline gamemonger56

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Re: What's Going On In Your Empire: C# Edition
« Reply #311 on: January 16, 2023, 08:03:31 AM »

a second alien race has shown up and my scouts ran like theyre supposed to. the fearless diplos went to work and so far so good. they havent even left their home system. i think thats their home system.

im going for a 3rd dd squadron; the light cruiser thats been designed is 72kt, and we dont have shipyards that can build that. when i told the designers that youd think id kicked their puppy, an yes a 70cm spinal laser is awesome, but we dont have a ship for it or a yard that can build it... more puppies kicked.
 

Offline gamemonger56

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Re: What's Going On In Your Empire: C# Edition
« Reply #312 on: January 16, 2023, 09:54:05 AM »

we are war.

the first discovered alien race suddenly turned and savaged a cargo group, half of them managed to get to the JP and alert the DD squadrons nearby. The colony ships that were headed to the system under attacked was thankfull rerouted to a nearby colony and unloaded their precious cargo there.

the two DD squadrons raided shield and sensors and made the jump into the now hostile system finding 4 alien ships, 21kt down to 6kt, scavenging the cargo ship wrecks.

50 missiles went out and obliterated the enemy. life pods were picked up and the salvage ships were sent in.

 

Offline gamemonger56

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Re: What's Going On In Your Empire: C# Edition
« Reply #313 on: January 16, 2023, 10:19:34 AM »
another enemy fleet showed up, began attacks and the game crashed. 5 years of sweat, satisfaction and terror gone, just gone.
 

Offline gamemonger56

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Re: What's Going On In Your Empire: C# Edition
« Reply #314 on: January 16, 2023, 10:49:57 AM »

5 years gone. A time anomaly, did we go back in time? obviously. do i repeat history, or knowing what i know, aliens and whatnot, do i have the right to change "history"?

yep