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C# Mechanics / Re: Potential Changes to Shipping Lines
« Last post by AlStar on Today at 02:10:10 PM »
1) Payment based on distance in km, not transits
If you go through with this change, make sure that you make it so that transports will be weighted towards picking routes that make them a decent amount of income, instead of doing Earth <-> Moon runs for pennies on the dollar.
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C# Mechanics / Re: Potential Changes to Shipping Lines
« Last post by Steve Walmsley on Today at 11:59:18 AM »
A very interesting discussion so far. I think the consensus is we meed some type of limitation on growth, although there are different ideas for how to achieve that. I think we need something organic though, rather than an artifical limitation such as x ships per colony.

So far, based on the points made, I am considering the following changes.

1) Payment based on distance in km, not transits
2) Fewer colony ships as a percentage of total ships, although perhaps not until 6+ ships built. I might also make the choice of new ship dependent on which ones are being used.
3) Dividends replaced by an admin overhead that increases in percentage terms based on the number of ships.
4) Payments affected by racial wealth multiplier
5) Have a simple retirement limit, such as 20 years, so that new ships are cycled in.

The above should limit lines without appearing to be too artificial, yet still allow some growth and modernization over time

I am tempted to have something like civilian shipyards, or 'build capacity', or some other 'on-map' capability, but it might turn out to be a lot of work without any major gameplay impact. As we will be travelling for the foreseeable future, which means limited programming time, that probably isn't a good time investment.

I won't be implementing anything for a few days though, so happy to listen to the debate.
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C# Mechanics / Re: Potential Changes to Shipping Lines
« Last post by Kaiser on Today at 11:27:21 AM »
Being honest, I like the way the civilian lines work now and like the experience you are describing Steve because it makes the growth of the empire feel organic to me.

That said, could we add some kind of mechanic where if a civilian ship sits idle for too long the line decommissions the ship? In game it can be explained as a company doesn't want to pay for maintenance of a ship that isn't doing anything. So if you want to decrease the number of ships you just mark a bunch of colonies as stable and wait for the ships to disappear.

I was about to suggest exactly this one. :o
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Development Discussions / Re: Autorefresh?
« Last post by nuclearslurpee on Today at 11:14:33 AM »
To implement an "autorefresh" function for open/background windows.  You can use browser extensions like "Auto Refresh Plus" for Chrome or "Tab Auto Refresh" for Firefox. 

Are you saying that these browser extensions can be used to refresh non-browser windows?

No, "he" is almost certainly an AI bot that got past the Erik filter.
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Development Discussions / Re: Autorefresh?
« Last post by skoormit on Today at 11:05:42 AM »
To implement an "autorefresh" function for open/background windows.  You can use browser extensions like "Auto Refresh Plus" for Chrome or "Tab Auto Refresh" for Firefox. 

Are you saying that these browser extensions can be used to refresh non-browser windows?
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C# Mechanics / Re: Potential Changes to Shipping Lines
« Last post by vorpal+5 on Today at 04:11:45 AM »
Please charge per distance!
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C# Mechanics / Re: Potential Changes to Shipping Lines
« Last post by Demetrious on Today at 02:59:03 AM »
If I may, I'd like to make a different suggestion: the mechanical problem here is the result of a thematic oversight in that the ratio of colony ships to passenger liners is badly skewed from where it should be. I had to open up my last game and check the ship list to double-check - I'd been under the impression that passenger liners weren't being auto-built by civilians at all. Turns out they are... I have two shipping liners, and some 30+ civilian colony ships.

Now having lots of freighters isn't a big deal because, thematically, you should. That's the core of your economy. The majority of an empire's wealth coming from taxing the civilian economy is how you'd expect things to work. Moreover, if your government commandeers those ships you pay for it twice - first, paying them for the shipping contract, and second by missing out on the tax revenue they would've generated from their ordinary runs. Colony ships, on the other hand, don't have this trade-off. They spend their time happily shuttling colonists to and fro just as freighters move trade goods... and once the nascent colony is all filled up, they go idle.

It makes perfect sense for the government to invest in expensive slack capacity (for emergencies such as rapidly setting up a new colony to enforce a territorial claim or rapidly evacuating one due to hostile encroachment, etc.) but it certainly doesn't make sense for civilian companies to do so. The regular market for mass colonist transport just isn't big enough, in my games, to justify 30+ ships. Why this discrepancy?

Because the way colony ships operate - constantly shuttling people to and fro just as freighters shuttle goods to and fro to keep the interplanetary/interstellar economy humming - is a job that should mostly be done by passenger ships.

There will always be poor young whippersnappers looking to make their fortune in New America, and commercial colonist transport makes sense as the steerage-class passage option for them - from the shipping company's perspective as well, because while they can't pay much per cryogenic berth, if you've got 50,000 of them stacked like sardines you're making pretty good money on every trip. With that said, cryogenics are expensive and the government tends to play merry hell with immigration/emigration permissions to suit their own purposes, so the mass colonist transit industry is a bit boom-or-bust. This puts an upper limit on how many colony ships are economically viable for the economy as a whole to produce once you average out the feasts and famines.

Passenger liners, on the other hand, are ubiquitous. Just like air travel on old Earth, long-distance trips are still expensive, esp. when made on the regular, but they're still within reach of the average consumer and many, many people need to travel on the company dime for work on a regular basis. There's a constant flow of traffic between all the teeming worlds of humanity, as teleconferencing is pretty dodgy at ranges of light-seconds, and between star systems is right out (the government charges an awful lot for use of their warp point commo repeaters!) and most of those people are moving about on two-way tickets. And frankly, none of them are keen on being rendered unconscious and stuffed in a freezer every time they want to pop over to Mars from Luna to meet with new clients. Even if they were, putting someone in cryogenic stasis is no trivial matter and there could be grave medical repercussions for entering and exiting cryo repeatedly in a short timeframe - once every six to eight months is the optimistic assumption - a year or more according to pessimistic doctors.

Naturally, the government makes a good chunk of change off taxing the passenger liner business. And just as naturally, when events prompt the government to either authorize mass immigration to a new colony, or mandate mass evacuation of same, passenger lines are quick to jump at the government contracts.

tl;dr Replace a large percentage of Colony Ships generated with Passenger Liners. As companies make more money and build more ships... they tend to build more passenger liners because, economically, there's just not room for nearly as many colonist transports as there is regular passenger service.
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C# Mechanics / Re: Potential Changes to Shipping Lines
« Last post by nuclearslurpee on Yesterday at 11:10:27 PM »
I tend to agree with everyone else that just rescaling the profit/loss for shipping lines won't solve the problem, just push it down the road a bit. That being said, I do think some suggestions here are a bit broader than needed to accomplish the stated objective:
So I am considering changing how shipping lines work, so they don't become so overwhelming, while trying to retain the flavour.
emphasis mine.

In my view (and from reading comments here), CSLs become overwhelming when they have too many ships - this unbalances the economy (due to tax income), trivializes new colony growth, causes rapid (de)population of colonies which disincentivizes use of source/destination automation, and causes performance problems (although this was mitigated by the change to use only larger ships).

Why do CSLs build too many ships? Simply put, because they keep making money and have no other way to use that money - there are no other money sinks for CSLs. This brings us back to:
Quote
Another option is replacing dividends with a percentage maintenance payment, which is modified by an admin overhead that increases as the number of ships increases - effectively limiting the rate at which a shipping line can increase in size.
I think this is probably the best starting point - as the saying goes, the bureaucracy is expanding to meet the needs of the expanding bureaucracy, so too goes the shipping company.

I would suggest implementing a civilian maintenance fee with superlinear scaling per ship. If N is the number of ships, something like N^(3/2) or maybe even N^2 (maybe this is too much) should work. If the rate of profits depends roughly on N but the rate of maintenance depends on N^(3/2), for instance, then there will eventually be a hard limit on the number of ships a CSL can buy and operate. This also means they will grow more slowly as they come closer to this point.

I would also suggest that CSL income is affected by the wealth generation tech level of their associated race (while the maintenance fee scaling remains the same throughout the game). This would mean the limit on number of ships is initially lower but increases with tech level, which is a rough analogue for the growth of the player empire.

I think this is the simplest and best approach as it is more or less completely under the hood (except for tying to research, which is only a positive change IMO). The essential flavor and interaction with CSLs otherwise remains the same, they just become more manageable. I don't like, for example, ideas about tying CSL growth to number and sizes of populations, I feel like this creates a danger of trying to micromanage populations to manipulate CSL growth (whether to speed up or slow down), which is not a style of gameplay I think fits Aurora.

----

There are a few other suggestions in this thread which I think merit consideration. They do not address the issue raised in the OP, at least IMO, but they are good ideas anyways:

Consider that civilians just use 50% power reduced engines and keep the higher speeds of those ships.
Agree as this makes the minimum engine power tech more attractive and will contribute to limiting CSL growth rates due to higher costs per ship.

--- Perhaps give them a sort of fluff base? Like CMCs, they'll spring up on eligible worlds, but would serve as mock "supply bases".
This would probably be too much work, but I would highly approve of CSLs having to build/expand their own shipyards for example. Being able to pop a 200,000-ton freighter into miraculous existence with no orbital infrastructure is a little silly.

At the very least can we get the oft requested reserve/target min/max settings for population, similar to whats already in place for minerals and installations, so that our source colonies aren't perpetually evacuated if left unattended.
It is oft-requested, but I would like to add my support here. In games with multiple player races, trying to keep track of all source/destination populations across multiple races is tedious at best and impossible at worst, for a single player race maybe it is "more immersive" not to have this automation option but for multiple player race games I think it is essential. As it is, I turn off civilian shipping in multiple player race games to avoid these problems. Implementation could be simple: have a trigger population value set for a source or destination colony, and when it is reached set that colony as stable - no or minimal changes to the civilian AI are needed.

This being said, these suggestions mean potentially significant mechanical changes and a lot more work on the coding side, so while I like them I wouldn't say they are necessary to solve the problem.
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General Discussion / Re: Moving ships between fleets
« Last post by jamesbolt on Yesterday at 10:53:06 PM »
Quote from: vorpal+5 link=topic=13551. msg169653#msg169653 date=1715149832
It's basic, but I admit I don't know if there is a solution.  Is it possible to move several ships at once from one fleet to another? Ctrl-click does not work for multi-selection, but I can't imagine that after all these years Steve is still moving 36 fighters, one click at a time, from one fleet to another (fighters, FACs, or whatever; you get the idea!).

Hey vorpal,

If you want to move multiple ships between fleets in Aurora 4X.  You can try to hold down the Shift key and click on each ship you want to move to select them then right-click on one of the selected ships to open the context menu after this you can choose the "Move To Fleet" option from the context menu and select the destination fleet for the selected ships.

If this method is not useful let me know.

Thanks,
James
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Development Discussions / Re: Autorefresh?
« Last post by jamesbolt on Yesterday at 10:42:00 PM »
Quote from: Jeltz link=topic=13549. msg169628#msg169628 date=1714903928
It seems strange, but searching for a similar request yielded no results: would it be possible to implement an "autorefresh" function for open/background windows? I think it would benefit the QOL.

-J-

Hey Buddy,

To implement an "autorefresh" function for open/background windows.  You can use browser extensions like "Auto Refresh Plus" for Chrome or "Tab Auto Refresh" for Firefox. 
These extensions allow you to set intervals for automatic page refresh, improving your quality of life by keeping content up-to-date without manual intervention.  Just install the extension, configure the refresh interval, and enjoy seamless updates on your open tabs.

Thanks,
James
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