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C# Mechanics / Re: Potential Changes to Shipping Lines
« Last post by KriegsMeister on Today at 06:29:09 PM »
The number of huge colony ships means that the civs will build up a new colony very quickly and also eat into source populations fairly quickly too.

At the very least can we get the oft requested reserve/target min/max settings for population, similar to whats already in place for minerals and installations, so that our source colonies aren't perpetually evacuated if left unattended.

Quote from: Steve Walmsley
A more dramatic change would be altering transport for all ships, not just civilians, so less can be transported. That means fewer cargo points and less colonist capacity per ton.
This would only delay the problem but as the game continues and the shipping lines continue to grow they will inevitably reach a point were they are too good at their jobs again.



I do like the idea of a cap on the number of lines and their ships, but I disagree slightly than what others have suggested on what the cap should be based on. Id like to see it based on # of colonies and their population. Every colony with a minimum of 10mil population can generate a single shipping line company per 1Bil population. So if a line had 50mil it would have have 1 shipping line, 999mil would also have 1 line, but 1,000,000,001 population would get a second and so on. Each Line would get a fixed size and number of ships based on overlapping population increments as well. Some example numbers could be as such: 1 small ship per 10mil pop, 1 medium per 50mil pop, 1 large per 100mil pop, and 1 huge per 200mil pop. Each line would therefor have a maximum cap of 5 huge, 10 large, 20 medium, and 100 small ships, so if an example colony has 567mil pop, it would have 2 huge, 5 large, 11 medium, and 56 small ships. Again, just example numbers and would need to be adjusted based on play testing in determining what # of ships are needed to make the game function, but the neat part is that it continues to grow in direct proportion to your empire so it "shouldn't" lead to an underwhelming civilian sector in the early game nor overbearing civilian sector needing DB culling. There could also be an additional factor taken into account how much the player actually uses its civilian sector. If there's an X number of contracts ordered by the player than the individual lines of the source and destination colonies may increase their number of ships, conversely if the player has few to no contracts than the lines reduce in size.

Decommissioning and replacements could be based on tech levels or probably easier to do strictly age. If I ship reaches X number of years it WILL complete its current shipment, then scrap itself, prompting the line to begin construction of a new one. As well if a population shrinks then so does its shipping line, scrapping the oldest ship at each population increment (which would also help negate source colony exodus).



As a fun additional change, if we were to have a game setting to remove mass drivers, CMC's could also produce shipping lines restricted to small ships in order to export their minerals. It's a fairly common house rule people use, and it would tie in greatly with raiders giving them even more targets of opportunity.
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C# Mechanics / Re: Potential Changes to Shipping Lines
« Last post by AlStar on Today at 06:10:18 PM »
I definitely feel that some kind of rebalancing needs to take place - in year 88 of my game, the civilian sector makes up a staggering 81.8% of my economy. (38.8% Shipping Colonists, 25.1% Shipping Trade Goods, 12.1% Passenger Liners, 5.8% Exports.)

It's basically nullified the entire wealth-as-a-resource aspect of the game, since I've got an income 7x as great as my expenditures.
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C# Suggestions / Re: Financial Centers
« Last post by Froggiest1982 on Today at 05:14:02 PM »
The problem is that manufacturing, services, and agriculture are already accounted for in the population.

As has been mentioned, wealth is a rather peculiar concept in Aurora and to some extent merely serves as another means to impose limitations when constructing things.

As a result, it became necessary to somehow generate wealth, especially in VB6 where bankruptcy could occur quite rapidly.

While I would appreciate wealth playing a more significant role in the game, I believe we are approaching the point where it could be considered obsolete.

Moving on to the naming issue, when placed in context, there isn't much remaining to rename these buildings. Many games utilize tax collection centres to emphasize their function in collecting revenue; others associate this with administrative roles, meaning more administration buildings lead to more efficient tax collection and reduced corruption.
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C# Mechanics / Re: Potential Changes to Shipping Lines
« Last post by Froggiest1982 on Today at 04:56:28 PM »
In my current campaign, I am 32 years into a conventional start and I have four shipping lines for the player race. The largest has forty-eight huge colony ships and forty-nine huge freighters, plus numerous smaller ones,  and seems to be building a new huge ship every few weeks. The other three shipping lines are considerably smaller.

The number of huge colony ships means that the civs will build up a new colony very quickly and also eat into source populations fairly quickly too.

So I am considering changing how shipping lines work, so they don't become so overwhelming, while trying to retain the flavour. I have a few ideas, such as halving the money received by civilian shipping, changing civilian designs so they are slower, significantly reducing the money for in-system transport, or maybe paying by distance travelled in km rather than transits made or limiting how often new ships can be built.

Another option is replacing dividends with a percentage maintenance payment, which is modified by an admin overhead that increases as the number of ships increases - effectively limiting the rate at which a shipping line can increase in size.

A more dramatic change would be altering transport for all ships, not just civilians, so less can be transported. That means fewer cargo points and less colonist capacity per ton.

However, I would like to hear other opinions and ideas before deciding how to tackle it.

The problem with all of the above is the snowball effect. At some point, system breaks.

Instead of reducing the growth rate of shipping lines, I'd impose a cap on their size and number. Be it a soft or hard cap. I've made the experience in long games that civilian shipping can grow to massive proportions and obsolete the player economy with the wealth generated via taxes.

Suggestion: Lines pay a minimal amount of dividends/maintenance until they make up 10% of yearly income, and then the maintenance increases exponentially. Say they give up half their income in maintenance and only pay half their taxes if shipping line income makes up 30% of your yearly income, halving again if it reaches 50% etc.

In this scheme all lines would have the same maintenance rate. I don't really see much point in multiple lines (besides flavor), and have also observed that there ends up being a few massive lines and a lot of tiny ones. So I'd just impose a hard cap on the number of lines per race.

That doesn't solve the issue that planet-moon shipping lines are obscenely profitable. Tying the income to distance traveled sounds good. Perhaps with a small fixed component, say 10% of current income, so that these kinds of lines also don't become worthless. Maybe tie it to travel time instead, including loading and unloading?

I'm in agreement with Zap0 on this matter, and have been for a long time. Both he and I engage in lengthy campaigns with multiple factions, and civilian fleets tend to grow excessively, leading to culling as the only solution. However, dealing with 20 or 30 new ships popping up each year adds unwanted micromanagement.

As Zap0 mentioned, I believe there must be a way to limit civilian fleets to a set number of ships, which could even be customizable. I admire the system used to manage population and immigration in Songs of Syx; perhaps you could take a quick look at it.

Regarding the number of shipping lines, once again, I side with Zap0. However, instead of being customizable, I agree that there should be a hard cap. In my opinion, anything between 3 and 5 should suffice.

If the above measures are implemented, wealth becomes irrelevant except for balancing purposes. It will then be necessary to conduct test games to determine the sweet spot for a dividend cap, tax, or any other required balance adjustments.

In conclusion, I believe the proposed solution won't affect players who are content with the current state of civilian management, as they can leave it at 0 (the standard setting for Aurora) and continue enjoying the game as it is. Meanwhile, players engaged in larger campaigns or less interested in civilian aspects can decide how effective they want their civilian navy to be.
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C# Mechanics / Re: Potential Changes to Shipping Lines
« Last post by Jorgen_CAB on Today at 04:49:48 PM »
Consider that civilians just use 50% power reduced engines and keep the higher speeds of those ships. This means less ships built overall as they are more expensive but you will still deliver goods fairly equally in quantity perhaps slightly less. They don't pay for fuel anyway so in some sense the lower powered engines can just result in performance issues later on.

So... restricting civilian companies to 50% power engines would automatically result in less ships built.

In addition to this each company should pay a higher administrative fee the more ships they have. I also think that shorter trips should pay way less dividend for companies in general.
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C# Bug Reports / Re: v2.5.1 Bugs Thread
« Last post by Jeltz on Today at 04:03:34 PM »
Aurora 2.5.1 "vanilla" or not (I usually play with Deep Blue mod), conventional start

Easily reproducible:

- Economics window
- Civilian/Flags tab
- Select the central title row "Installation Type Demanded - Amount - Assigned"
- Press "Edit Demand" button[/li][/list]


a message will be generated: "2.5.1 Function #608: Object reference not set to an instance of an object"

same behaviour if it is selected the empty row below title row

click on OK button: message close and nothing seem wrong but...

.... but after few in game-day I recieved 10 (!) Research Lab without apparently reason (se Event log in attach)

I dont' know if this two things are linked or not, I would tend not to believe it, but it is a quite strange coincidence...

And for me those 10 Reserch Lab are a real mistery...

-J-




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C# Mechanics / Re: Potential Changes to Shipping Lines
« Last post by Pedroig on Today at 03:32:10 PM »
Something ahistorical but should allow the player to have some control over what type of game they want to play.

Have a modifier in the initial game settings which will limit ratio of number and displacement of civilian shipping based upon the player fleet.  Maybe a "max number of civvie shipping lines" as well.

Having a ratio will make an inverse relationship on number of ships and size.  The higher the number of the ships, the less size they will be and vice versa, regardless of the values chosen.  It would be nice to be able to do this on a "per line" basis as an option to replicate large interstellar haulers and intra-system tramp freighters to both exist, though if that isn't doable, having the player choose between taking care of one or the other and the civilians covering the remainder will work.

For an easy example, let's take a "small" force of 100 ships totaling 1,000,000 tons, so if the player chooses 100% number and 100% displacement, the civilian shipping line(s) will default to having 100 ships massing 10,000 each, so a "jack of all, master of none" effect.  A 10%/100% choice would result in 10 ships at 100,000 each, so interstellar transport vibe, whilst a 100%/10% would be a small packet courier fleet of 1,000 ton ships.  This of course is based on averages, and allowing over 100% on either gives more options, but not necessary.

Just seems easier to mechanically tie it into what the player is doing than other mechanical subsytstems.  It will naturally provide a civilian shipping economy which reflects the player's own demands and "actions" in the ship economy and how that would trigger a civilian response.
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C# Mechanics / Re: Potential Changes to Shipping Lines
« Last post by ISN on Today at 03:10:14 PM »
paying by distance travelled in km rather than transits made

This change makes every kind of sense.
Unless the computational cost of the distance calculations is excessive, it seems like a worthwhile idea.

Ships already keep track of the total distance they've traveled, so it shouldn't be too expensive to keep track of the distance on a per-contract basis as well.

If we do end up going with some sort of cap or extra cost for the shipping lines it seems like it would be a good idea to make it toggleable or adjustable as a modifier in the game settings, since it seems people have pretty different preferences regarding their civilian economies.
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C# Mechanics / Re: Potential Changes to Shipping Lines
« Last post by non sequitur on Today at 02:39:07 PM »
Being honest, I like the way the civilian lines work now and like the experience you are describing Steve because it makes the growth of the empire feel organic to me.

That said, could we add some kind of mechanic where if a civilian ship sits idle for too long the line decommissions the ship? In game it can be explained as a company doesn't want to pay for maintenance of a ship that isn't doing anything. So if you want to decrease the number of ships you just mark a bunch of colonies as stable and wait for the ships to disappear.
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C# Mechanics / Re: Potential Changes to Shipping Lines
« Last post by skoormit on Today at 02:31:41 PM »
paying by distance travelled in km rather than transits made

This change makes every kind of sense.
Unless the computational cost of the distance calculations is excessive, it seems like a worthwhile idea.
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